Either God does not exist or there is no free will.

[decem]

Whoso clearly appreciates all that is implied in the falling of a stone can have no difficulty about any doctrine simply on account of its marvelousness. But the longer I live, the more obvious it is to me that the most sacred act of a man's life is to say and to feel, "I believe such and such to be true." All the greatest rewards and all the heaviest penalties of existence cling about that act. The universe is one and the same throughout; and if the condition of my success in unraveling some little difficulty of anatomy or physiology is that I shall rigorously refuse to put faith in that which does not rest on sufficient evidence, I cannot believe that the great mysteries of existence will be laid open to me on other terms. It is no use to talk to me of analogies and probabilities. I know what I mean when I say I believe in the law of the inverse squares, and I will not rest my life and hopes upon weaker convictions. I dare not if I would.
-- Thomas Huxley, from "Letter to Kingsley," September 23,1860

 

[decem]

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death.
Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more; it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.
-- Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act 5, Scene 5,

 

[WODIN]

I agree, Wodin. Clearly no one wants to think they're alone in the universe. It's nice to think there's someone looking down on you who cares about you and your seemingly meaningless existence... and so forth.

It takes a very strong will to put aside your basal instincts and fears and try to evaluate the subject as scientifically and objectively as possible... give it the kind of logical and prolonged thought that a subject of that magnitude deserves.

It's not easy, and the vast majority of people are not strong enough to do this.

I'm not saying i have all the answers by any means, but I do feel that by coping out to a "gotta have faith" approach you're simply choosing to believe because it's easier and more comfortable to do so...

I don't know if God cares or not. If I were God, I wouldn't care so much as just sit back with a big bag of popcorn and watch the show.

I've given it about 20 years worth of thought. That's enough.

It's not a cop out its an observed fact from seeing a shit load of threads and discussions on religion and belief.

You have "faith" that God doesn't exist just as much as I have "faith" that God does. There is no proof either way.

 

[Lift Chief]

Wow. I haven't had this discussion in years. I grew up super religious (even was ordained to the priesthood in my early twenties), so this is one I had with many people years ago. I am not so religious anymore, and am more open minded now that I am middle aged but just for the sake of discussion here goes....


If God is omniscient it does not mean there is no free will. First of all it is never "free" - as any act of expressing your will carries consequences - you will either pay or receive benefits because of your actions.But just because God knows the future it does not mean he caused the future.

If God is truly our Father - or our Parent - or Legal Gaurdian - he has much more knowledge than me.

If I, as a earthly father, am watching my child do something - I can often predict the outcome. Even with my limited knowledge. I can tell my son is going to fall from a tree, or that he has impressed a girl, or is going to slip and cut himself, or is going the score the basket during a basketball game. I can tell if a 18 month old is going to drench himself in soda if he lifts the glass too high-although they did not foresee that. Kids sometimes think parents have eyes in the back of their heads because they "know" what is happening - buts its just because parents have been around a bit.

Sometimes I can tell there is going to be a bad consequence to an action for a child, but still let them do it so they will learn something (of course not if it was truly dangerous to them). Sometimes I let them learn that doing something is wrong or doing it the wrong way or at the wrong time is not good - so that they truly learn the lesson.

If God is perfect - he is perfect in 7 traits : knowledge, love, truth, power, justice, mercy and wisdom. He may have power to make anything happen - and could make life an easy perfect fun journey for us - but that would contradict perfect wisdom - because a child has to be allowed to walk on their own, even though it means falling down many times.

If he is our Father he wants us to grow up and become stronger - more like him ( "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect" - Matthew 5:48. It is an actual commandment to eventually become fully developed - a commandment just like "Thou shalt not steal" - however we choose through our "free will" whether to obey the commandment or not). To become stronger we have to be allowed to do it on our own. You can't get stronger by letting someone else lift your weights at the gym for you.

God is wise enough to let us go our own way, make our own mistakes, express our "will" - and either pay the bill or earn the paycheck. As a Christian I was also taught that he provides a way to help pay our spiritual (and some physical debts) that we cannot pay ourselves, through the grace of Jesus Christ, after doing all that we can do.

Wow. That almost brought tears to my eyes - haven't felt that for many years.

I see the points you are making... these are used by many religious people to try and validate your beliefs.

I have problems with equating a parent to God though. God clearly must have exact knowledge of the future. A parent has instincts and hunches... clearly, for something to be a true God it must have more than this.

A parent allows their child to fall, but does not allow them to say play with a jigsaw and lose some fingers and therefore lead a more difficult life. Nothing is learned from senseless violence like that... senseless violence we see in the world all the time.

Children having limbs chopped off in Africa, drive by shootings in which a child is killed, etc... all these things teach us nothing except pain and misery... a "loving parent" would not allow this to occur.

 

[Lift Chief]

I don't know if God cares or not. If I were God, I wouldn't care so much as just sit back with a big bag of popcorn and watch the show.

I've given it about 20 years worth of thought. That's enough.

It's not a cop out its an observed fact from seeing a shit load of threads and discussions on religion and belief.

You have "faith" that God doesn't exist just as much as I have "faith" that God does. There is no proof either way.

I never said what i believe or do not believe...

Maybe i believe in God and do not believe in free will...

Maybe i have an entirely different notion of what i believe God is...

 

[distanced]

That's why I refuse to read translations that have anything to do with the catholic church. they like to add and remove text to and from the Bible as suits them best at the time

 

[Generic MALE]

it has not changed forms at all.

it is just that as our knowledge and technology have progressed, we are now able to more acurately translate the original texts

Well actually it has changed forms. I can't remember if it was the convention of Cant or what anymore, my memory fails me - but the Cahtolic church convened many times and altered the bible this way and that. Many texts were removed and many added. As a result many books of scriptures have been enitrely lost. Its not that these books were translated differently, its that they were completely removed. Another example, the BOOK OF WARS is no longer in the bible although at one time it was part of the sciptures.

 

[Lift Chief]

That's why I refuse to read translations that have anything to do with the catholic church. they like to add and remove text to and from the Bible as suits them best at the time

What exactly are you reading?

You know, the verision of the bible that has nothing added or taken out... is direct from the mouth of God... can i have a copy?


I should probably have prefaced this whole thread by saying that either the typical monotheist God does not exist or there is no free will...

Those who have a different notion of what god is this would not apply to.

 

[distanced]

so you have created your own personal religon that suits your needs and makes you feel comfortable. awww, how cute of you. I bet you feel the same about politics. I mean, we all know you would be a better president than anyone other than a spice girl

 

[decem]

in true Nietzsche form, i am washing my hands of this thread.