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Either God does not exist or there is no free will.
- Thread starter Lift Chief
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Lift Chief
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Excellent post, mengy... seems like most of us are all saying the same thing, but in different ways.
distanced said:
Of course I read the whole post, that is what prompted me to reply.
The difference between you and I is that you believe God had a hand in writing the Bible and it can tell no lies, and no one can ever tell you otherwise. I look at the Bible from a more objective point of view, not as an absolute. It’s not really a matter of right and wrong, it’s a matter of faith, and tomorrow both of us will go on believing what we believe.
But you will never convince me that the Bible is perfect and should be taken as the exact Word of God.
collegiateLifter
New member
While i think the original premise on free will is slightly off,
This Is in fact the definition of God.
The christian God too is defined as almighty and all knowing, right?
This brings up one of my favorite Bible inconsistencies, when it says, 'Even God thought him [Lucifer] beautiful till the final hour [before lucifer became satan, rebelled, that whole spiel]."
How then, was GOD tricked by an angel, an angel he created no less?
This Is in fact the definition of God.
Lift Chief said:
The christian God too is defined as almighty and all knowing, right?
This brings up one of my favorite Bible inconsistencies, when it says, 'Even God thought him [Lucifer] beautiful till the final hour [before lucifer became satan, rebelled, that whole spiel]."
How then, was GOD tricked by an angel, an angel he created no less?
Lift Chief
New member
Re: Re: Either God does not exist or there is no free will.
A good question. I assume bible thumpers would say God allowed the devil to exist so there would be evil in the world to tempt man and allow the existence of free will.
collegiateLifter said:
A good question. I assume bible thumpers would say God allowed the devil to exist so there would be evil in the world to tempt man and allow the existence of free will.
Generic MALE
New member
I grew up super religious. I am sure I was small minded and sometimes annoying. But I was very happy. It made me happy to go to the hospital and visit sick people. It made me happy to visit someone in jail. It made me happy when I dedicated myself on a mission for awhile. It made me happier when a friend killed himself and I believed in a kind God and an afterlife. It made me happy to live a chaste life and not screw women, waiting for the one I would marry. I believed in a powerful love and felt there was someone "right" for me out there somewhere. All sorts of things related to my religion made me happy.
Then in my late 30's I had experiences that pretty much crushed my faith in religion. I have been wiser but not happier. I often feel hopeless because of thinking how futile life is, there is no point and that there is no basic goodness or meaning underlying the whole process. I have a good marraige, but believe it is because both of us have sacrificed for it and not because of any deeper meaning - as a result for the first time in my life and /or in my marraige I have considered sex other than in a marraige - cheating if you will. I have not cheated, but have come very close once in the last few months - the only thing stopping me was how much it would cost me - not because of any moral convictions.
I believe my wife would have been equally as happy with any other guy who had been as dedicated to the idea of marraige as I was the first 13 or so years of our marraige_ not only have I lost the belief that there was anyone special for me, but that I am special to anyone else. I have a hard time believing there is anything after death, or believing that there is any all wise benevolent being who gives one iota of shit about what happens to me. I believe I wasted alot of time being nice, was taken advantage of by alot of people I lent time/ money/ effort to - who took advantage of my religous nature - that makes me bitter.
I am not religous anymore and am unhappier for it. I wish I could believe it again, and have tried....but can't. In the first year or so of my loss of faith I tried (not consciously) to tear down my wifes faith. Tried to get her to see the truth of how much bullshit religion is. I am lucky she tolerated my behavior - she is a great woman.
But now I see it makes her happy. She was comforted by her religous beliefs when her mom was left a vegetable recently from a car wreck.
Religious beliefs - including atheism are about faith - nobody can prove things one way or the other. Can't prove there is no God can't prove there is a God. But if it makes someone happy, it would take a real piece of shit (like I was being) to try and tear down someone elses faith - to take away an outlook that gives them some piece of mind in a rather cruel and dark world. One in which we all at some point lose our jobs, get very sick, watch people we love die etc.
At this point she does not try and get me to believe or make me included in church activities. I attend every now and then to make her happy. Every once in a while I watch my children eat and am thankful in my heart to whatever God there might be that I am able to feed them when we live in a troubled economy. I certainly would not discourage her from her beliefs vice versa. I am glad for her that she has something so simple that gives her so much piece of mind when things are often so shitty.
Then in my late 30's I had experiences that pretty much crushed my faith in religion. I have been wiser but not happier. I often feel hopeless because of thinking how futile life is, there is no point and that there is no basic goodness or meaning underlying the whole process. I have a good marraige, but believe it is because both of us have sacrificed for it and not because of any deeper meaning - as a result for the first time in my life and /or in my marraige I have considered sex other than in a marraige - cheating if you will. I have not cheated, but have come very close once in the last few months - the only thing stopping me was how much it would cost me - not because of any moral convictions.
I believe my wife would have been equally as happy with any other guy who had been as dedicated to the idea of marraige as I was the first 13 or so years of our marraige_ not only have I lost the belief that there was anyone special for me, but that I am special to anyone else. I have a hard time believing there is anything after death, or believing that there is any all wise benevolent being who gives one iota of shit about what happens to me. I believe I wasted alot of time being nice, was taken advantage of by alot of people I lent time/ money/ effort to - who took advantage of my religous nature - that makes me bitter.
I am not religous anymore and am unhappier for it. I wish I could believe it again, and have tried....but can't. In the first year or so of my loss of faith I tried (not consciously) to tear down my wifes faith. Tried to get her to see the truth of how much bullshit religion is. I am lucky she tolerated my behavior - she is a great woman.
But now I see it makes her happy. She was comforted by her religous beliefs when her mom was left a vegetable recently from a car wreck.
Religious beliefs - including atheism are about faith - nobody can prove things one way or the other. Can't prove there is no God can't prove there is a God. But if it makes someone happy, it would take a real piece of shit (like I was being) to try and tear down someone elses faith - to take away an outlook that gives them some piece of mind in a rather cruel and dark world. One in which we all at some point lose our jobs, get very sick, watch people we love die etc.
At this point she does not try and get me to believe or make me included in church activities. I attend every now and then to make her happy. Every once in a while I watch my children eat and am thankful in my heart to whatever God there might be that I am able to feed them when we live in a troubled economy. I certainly would not discourage her from her beliefs vice versa. I am glad for her that she has something so simple that gives her so much piece of mind when things are often so shitty.
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