Either God does not exist or there is no free will.

[Lift Chief]

Why?

Why always boils down to faith. Either you have it or you don't.

Everyone of these threads always boils down to that singular issue.

I have faith.

I agree, Wodin. Clearly no one wants to think they're alone in the universe. It's nice to think there's someone looking down on you who cares about you and your seemingly meaningless existence... and so forth.

It takes a very strong will to put aside your basal instincts and fears and try to evaluate the subject as scientifically and objectively as possible... give it the kind of logical and prolonged thought that a subject of that magnitude deserves.

It's not easy, and the vast majority of people are not strong enough to do this.

I'm not saying i have all the answers by any means, but I do feel that by coping out to a "gotta have faith" approach you're simply choosing to believe because it's easier and more comfortable to do so...

 

[distanced]

dude, your qoutes suck.

are you in college and just read this today in your textbook today?

 

[decem]

When you use reason you get into unwinnable debates like this one above.

It ought not to be unpleasant to say that which one honestly believes or disbelieves. That it so constantly is painful to do so, is quite enough obstacle to the progress of mankind in that most valuable of all qualities, honesty of word or of deed.
-- Thomas Huxley, "Agnosticism"

 

[Generic MALE]

Wow. I haven't had this discussion in years. I grew up super religious (even was ordained to the priesthood in my early twenties), so this is one I had with many people years ago. I am not so religious anymore, and am more open minded now that I am middle aged but just for the sake of discussion here goes....


If God is omniscient it does not mean there is no free will. First of all it is never "free" - as any act of expressing your will carries consequences - you will either pay or receive benefits because of your actions.But just because God knows the future it does not mean he caused the future.

If God is truly our Father - or our Parent - or Legal Gaurdian - he has much more knowledge than me.

If I, as a earthly father, am watching my child do something - I can often predict the outcome. Even with my limited knowledge. I can tell my son is going to fall from a tree, or that he has impressed a girl, or is going to slip and cut himself, or is going the score the basket during a basketball game. I can tell if a 18 month old is going to drench himself in soda if he lifts the glass too high-although they did not foresee that. Kids sometimes think parents have eyes in the back of their heads because they "know" what is happening - buts its just because parents have been around a bit.

Sometimes I can tell there is going to be a bad consequence to an action for a child, but still let them do it so they will learn something (of course not if it was truly dangerous to them). Sometimes I let them learn that doing something is wrong or doing it the wrong way or at the wrong time is not good - so that they truly learn the lesson.

If God is perfect - he is perfect in 7 traits : knowledge, love, truth, power, justice, mercy and wisdom. He may have power to make anything happen - and could make life an easy perfect fun journey for us - but that would contradict perfect wisdom - because a child has to be allowed to walk on their own, even though it means falling down many times.

If he is our Father he wants us to grow up and become stronger - more like him ( "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect" - Matthew 5:48. It is an actual commandment to eventually become fully developed - a commandment just like "Thou shalt not steal" - however we choose through our "free will" whether to obey the commandment or not). To become stronger we have to be allowed to do it on our own. You can't get stronger by letting someone else lift your weights at the gym for you.

God is wise enough to let us go our own way, make our own mistakes, express our "will" - and either pay the bill or earn the paycheck. As a Christian I was also taught that he provides a way to help pay our spiritual (and some physical debts) that we cannot pay ourselves, through the grace of Jesus Christ, after doing all that we can do.

Wow. That almost brought tears to my eyes - haven't felt that for many years.

 

[distanced]

exactly!!

the rest are just cheap rip offs



oO(by the way...the world is only 12,000-15,000 years old)

 

[curling]

The bible isn't the only canon of monotheistic religion.

It is the only canon because it is the true word of God. The others are more like bb guns made up by man.

 

[Stangfriik]

exactly!!

the rest are just cheap rip offs



oO(by the way...the world is only 12,000-15,000 years old)

Keep posting man, your comedy is keeping me awake at work

 

[Lift Chief]

Re: Re: Either God does not exist or there is no free will.

God's "knowledge" is just observation and not dictation.

Suppose time-machines become a reality and I use a time-machine to travel forward in time. I write down all your actions for a particular day and travel back in time. I give you the notes of what you did on a particular day (the notes are sealed). After the day is over you read the sealed notes and you see that I knew of all your actions on that day.

Did I take away your free will? Nope, rather i just observed what you did.

Right, and that's the other side of the coin. I've thought about that myself many times and, honestly, have no idea what to do with it.

Going with your example, someone having knowledge of what you will do- there is no way you can say you have free will because your future is already set. Them knowing the choices you will make makes it impossible for free will to exist, in that instance. Perhaps free will can only exist when the future is not known.... i don't know.

It's almost a perspective question.
Sometimes i think, yes, God knows what we will do simply by observiing our free will choices... and that can mean free will exists.

But i cannot escape the concept that when the future is known, although you think you have a choice, you do not.

Use a movie as an example. The people in that movie think they have free will, but you know how the movie will play out. Once you know what will happen, do the people in that movie lose their free will?

 

[Generic MALE]

why believe in someone else's points, when the Bible has the answers to the questions

Keep in mind that what we now call the bible is a fairly recent compilation. The Bible has changed forms many times - with things being added and subtracted many times over the years. I can't remember what the last meeting or conference was called in which the leaders of the Catholic church decided what would be included in the bible. Many do not consider the book known as Song of Solomon to be inspired as it is a love poem to a girl.

As well a great many scriptures and entire books have been removed from what is the King James text. In the old and new testament there is references to over 25 books of scriptures that are no longer contained in the current bible. For example, in 2nd Chronicles 9:21 in the old testament they quote from the "book of Nathan the prophet" - but such book no longer exists in the bible or anywhere. At some point it was removed from the scriptures by someone - most likely someone in the Catholic church hundreds of years ago.

 

[distanced]

it has not changed forms at all.

it is just that as our knowledge and technology have progressed, we are now able to more acurately translate the original texts