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EF Progressives... An Honest, Non-Partisan Question

mrplunkey

New member
Have recent events in Europe made you reconsider the viability of large social safety net economies?

And I'm not just referring to Greece and Ireland. I'm talking about the larger issues with Italy and France.

Does the struggle to make their budgets work influence your opinions on a higher tax rate combined with more social spending?

And no, this isn't a partisan troll. I'm curious about how our more mindful EF progressives (see? I didn't say "liberals") view the situation.
 
I'm cooking up some popcorn right now. This should be a good one. Mental note, look what's happening with Italy and France right now. I haven't watched the news in awhile.
 
Blaming large social safety nets for Europe's fiscal problems only addresses part of the issue.

The part that conservatives like to focus on.

BTW, in the US $1 in unemployment benefits yields $1.90 in economic growth.






b0und (just sayin')
 
Blaming large social safety nets for Europe's fiscal problems only addresses part of the issue.

The part that conservatives like to focus on.

BTW, in the US $1 in unemployment benefits yields $1.90 in economic growth.

b0und (just sayin')

What's the other part of the issue?
 
I am socially progressive and a moderate on this type of issue but I will do my best to give you my perspective so you understand. by your posts you seem to be liberal on social issues too.

I want lower taxes on people who make under 250K a year and I want corporations to start paying their fair share. being a progressive doesn't mean we want more taxes and more spending. when Mondale said he would raise peoples taxes he screwed himself in 84, that was moronic. but the national democrats back then were incapable of putting someone up who wasn't a bad politician until Bill Clinton came along.

I have a problem with a corporation setting up an S corp and using a loophole to avoid taxes, or rich people who put their money in Swiss accounts and cheat the system. lets call it the way it is.. if you make enough to hire a good tax attorney and accountant you can cheat like hell and you rarely get caught.. you move your shit overseas, you setup special accounts or dummy businesses where you can wash away gains. but the honest guy who makes 50-100K per year as an employee gets every penny reported so he must pay. also under bush federal taxes went down but we all know that was baloney, my local taxes and fees went up substantially during those 8 years.. and they are still going up even though my state and county are run by very conservative R's.

I also want a strong military which requires a lot of spending. and if we start cutting bases around the world we not only lose american jobs, but we also hurt those individual towns here and around the world. last i checked troops get paid with taxpayer dollars so kinda hard to take care of them without taxes. but at the same time I don't want us spending billions on wars and weapons we don't need. removing a terrorist from Libya who was responsible for killing hundreds of americans, and another in Pakistan who killed thousands is the way to use the military. 0 loss of life. Iraq and Afghanistan were wastes of money. there is a right way and a wrong way. I am for cutting spending in other areas too, people who cheat social security or other programs need to be ax'd, we need to stop giving money to countries that don't need it and instead teach them how to use condoms to prevent overpopulation so they don't have 10 kids born into poverty, did we really need to create another agency homeland security that now we are gonna be stuck with? Max Cleland voted against it but his opponent used that to get him voted out. also do federal employees abroad need to be making 150K per year plus benefits? there are other areas that need to be cut but it would take an entire thread to name them.

Italy is run by a center right political party, so not sure how you are linking progressives to what is going on there. just cause they have some social safety nets doesn't mean thats 100% to blame for their problems. all we know is that their bonds are getting sold off which indicates they may not be able to pay their obligations.. thats all we know right now so its premature to speculate on what will happen or why its happening. China is run by far left single party and they are as well run an economy as their is in the world today. there are plenty of dumb progressives and dumb conservatives out there who i wouldn't hire to mow my lawn much less an economy so don't blame an entire ideology for problems on a continent which comes up with a new problem every 50 years or so. whether it is wars, plagues, famine, etc. europe has survived a lot of stuff in their history, this is hardly a big deal compared to what they've been through. the media (Faux news) must be overblowing the situation as they always do and making you think it is a bigger deal than it really is. our markets were down yesterday but they are also up big over the past month even in the face of this europe stuff so that should tell you what our markets think about it. when japan had their tsunami our markets tanked on that too, but then over the next couple weeks rebounded huge.

also the US 10 year bond yield dropped yesterday and are now yielding under 2%. that should tell you something about where people think its safe to put their money. faux news won't report that though cause it shows how strong our financial situation is and we all know scaring people is what gets ratings.
 
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Isn't what we are seeing with tax structures simply a function of globalization?

Picture this:

- $500 M/year US company
- 3,000 employees
- Sales in 70 countries
- Manufacturing in 8 countries
- 60% of sales US-based
- 20% of manufacturing US-based

If a product is made in Latin America, sold in Europe and the earnings are retained, how exactly is the US going to tax anyone? Who would you even send the tax bill to?

I've heard the fair-share argument before, but unless you are going to tell companies where they have to make things, sell things and even where they have to recognize profits, it simply can't be done to any global organization.
 
Blaming large social safety nets for Europe's fiscal problems only addresses part of the issue.

The part that conservatives like to focus on.

BTW, in the US $1 in unemployment benefits yields $1.90 in economic growth.

b0und (just sayin')

Conventional wisdom (at least here in the US) says that Europe's larger social welfare system is implemented at the cost of higher taxes, lower growth and higher unemployment levels. Supporters would argue that people (on average) are better off under a more redistributive government system. That's an interesting argument, but it's not the reason I started the thread.

The other debate regarding Europe is the sustainability of its social welfare system. Thatcher was criticizing it decades ago as conservatives would now. At first, the "fixer-upper" countries were struggling (i.e. Ireland and Greece) but now it looks like some of the larger countries (i.e. France and Italy) are in debt trouble as well.

1) Would any of you argue the larger social welfare model is sustainable, it's just hit a rough patch due to the global credit crisis?

2) Would any of you argue that the larger social welfare model was sustainable, but rising global competition threatens the model because larger companies have access to lower-cost workers and more favorable tax structures?

3) Would any of you argue that the broader distribution of capital is siphoning investment and job creation away from countries with larger social welfare models?

I'm curious because I wonder if what's happening is a watershed moment to choose between a larger social welfare system and a dramatically scaled-back version. Is anyone here doubting the viability of the European model who previously supported it?
 
Isn't what we are seeing with tax structures simply a function of globalization?

Picture this:

- $500 M/year US company
- 3,000 employees
- Sales in 70 countries
- Manufacturing in 8 countries
- 60% of sales US-based
- 20% of manufacturing US-based

If a product is made in Latin America, sold in Europe and the earnings are retained, how exactly is the US going to tax anyone? Who would you even send the tax bill to?

I've heard the fair-share argument before, but unless you are going to tell companies where they have to make things, sell things and even where they have to recognize profits, it simply can't be done to any global organization.

I'm not an accountant but I know in my business if i work abroad I will automatically have taxes withheld. I would have to renounce my citizenship i guess to avoid that and pay taxes in the country i live in. I know a guy who did this, but the funny thing is now he regrets it and has to jump through hoops to visit his family in the states.

there isn't ever gonna be a way to 'fair share' taxes. but we can try our best to close loopholes and go after cheaters
 
1) Would any of you argue the larger social welfare model is sustainable, it's just hit a rough patch due to the global credit crisis? economic cycles have ways of balancing this out. when things are good welfare models expand, when things are bad they shrink.. thats all that is happening. just like how now americans and corporations are quickly shredding up their debt, but when housing prices were going up they were building up their debt. once things stabilize americans will start expanding debt again. this is a pretty deep cycle though so wounds will run deep for longer but it will eventually happen regardless. i know people who owned several houses during the boom who now vow never to own one again, eventually they will though..

2) Would any of you argue that the larger social welfare model was sustainable, but rising global competition threatens the model because larger companies have access to lower-cost workers and more favorable tax structures?

i wouldn't argue it.. but countries like china and india definately throw a wrench in. call up dell support or linksys support and see who you talk to.. probably someone in india who is very friendly.

3) Would any of you argue that the broader distribution of capital is siphoning investment and job creation away from countries with larger social welfare models?

no because i don't believe that is happening today more than it ever has.


I'm curious because I wonder if what's happening is a watershed moment to choose between a larger social welfare system and a dramatically scaled-back version. Is anyone here doubting the viability of the European model who previously supported it? when things are good it works better than any system ever made, when things are bad it doesn't... but in capitalism its the same way. so its all relative. the chinese might be the only ones whose system works in any global environment

bolded
 
I'm not an accountant but I know in my business if i work abroad I will automatically have taxes withheld. I would have to renounce my citizenship i guess to avoid that and pay taxes in the country i live in. I know a guy who did this, but the funny thing is now he regrets it and has to jump through hoops to visit his family in the states.

there isn't ever gonna be a way to 'fair share' taxes. but we can try our best to close loopholes and go after cheaters

You had taxes withheld because a taxable event occurred -- they paid you.

In my example, the company retained the earnings. Shareholders (theoretically) should see the value of their stock increase but if they haven't sold or traded it, no taxable event occurred.

So in this case, is there no tax bill to the shareholder?
 
You had taxes withheld because a taxable event occurred -- they paid you.
I am a proprietory trader. the clearing firm/brokerage withholds the taxes if I am living abroad, not my employer

In my example, the company retained the earnings. Shareholders (theoretically) should see the value of their stock increase but if they haven't sold or traded it, no taxable event occurred.
not if they are like me and marked to market.

So in this case, is there no tax bill to the shareholder?
not sure in your example if most of the time that would be the case, but it only illustrates how easy it is for companies to create loopholes

bolded

.
 

So you'd advocate doing a market-to-market valuation of every security (public and private) to determine if an American needed to be taxed from any income source anywhere in the world?

So if I owned a building in Germany and it appreciated, I'd be forced to get a yearly appraisal and pay US taxes on the estimated appreciation?
 
market to market would work great when times are good... too good. but will work incredibly bad when things are bad... really really bad.

no way would i advocate it in your example cause you would get huge paper gains and huge paper losses.

you cannot compare apples to oranges.. real estate which has no true value unless actually bought/sold vs. securities which we can see the value of second by second and have an end of day price.

when it comes to real estate NO.. when it comes to securities. YES X2
 
Have recent events in Europe made you reconsider the viability of large social safety net economies?

And I'm not just referring to Greece and Ireland. I'm talking about the larger issues with Italy and France.

Does the struggle to make their budgets work influence your opinions on a higher tax rate combined with more social spending?

And no, this isn't a partisan troll. I'm curious about how our more mindful EF progressives (see? I didn't say "liberals") view the situation.


Lol. You have developed a Rockefeller complex. Forget you robber barons! FDR was right, tax you pricks at 90% and keep the illiterate slugs in poverty. Leave us upper middle class alone! You know: doctors, lawyers, professors, teachers, engineers, people who made and make America great! Well, unfortunately, I cannot play on the internet all day, I have to go make America great! Somebody has to do it!
 
^^^ the problem is cops, firefighters, teachers, engineers, many docs/lawyers fall into the category of those who pay more in taxes cause of other people getting loopholes/cheating.

close the loopholes and cut taxes for those who make under 250K. just like what we are trying to do. i don't see why republicans can't agree to do that.
 
no one (and no thing) is ever more than 90 days from financial ruin...doesn't matter who (or what) you are or how much "money" you have.
 
Conventional wisdom (at least here in the US) says that Europe's larger social welfare system is implemented at the cost of higher taxes, lower growth and higher unemployment levels. Supporters would argue that people (on average) are better off under a more redistributive government system. That's an interesting argument, but it's not the reason I started the thread.

The other debate regarding Europe is the sustainability of its social welfare system. Thatcher was criticizing it decades ago as conservatives would now. At first, the "fixer-upper" countries were struggling (i.e. Ireland and Greece) but now it looks like some of the larger countries (i.e. France and Italy) are in debt trouble as well.

1) Would any of you argue the larger social welfare model is sustainable, it's just hit a rough patch due to the global credit crisis?

2) Would any of you argue that the larger social welfare model was sustainable, but rising global competition threatens the model because larger companies have access to lower-cost workers and more favorable tax structures?

3) Would any of you argue that the broader distribution of capital is siphoning investment and job creation away from countries with larger social welfare models?

I'm curious because I wonder if what's happening is a watershed moment to choose between a larger social welfare system and a dramatically scaled-back version. Is anyone here doubting the viability of the European model who previously supported it?

It's way too late for me, but I give this a stab.

Large social security, where income earners pay for recipients is in fact unsustainable in most western countries, especially the US. What is worse is that it's a Ponzi scheme. When SS started in the US there were 16 payers for 1 receiver, now it's 2 to 1, by the time all the baby boomers retire it will be even.

Europe is nothing like the US, all countries have different SS systems and generally much better functioning health care systems. No other European country is an unsustainable basket case like Greece.

For a country to function however it must have a working SS system as well as a functioning, affordable health care system. Without those you can watch your country turn into a 3rd world shithole where people will kill you for your wallet.

Again, SS funding is only part of the problem. Ever increasing inequality in income earned is the main problem that is unsustainable. You can't expect the majority of the population to accept an ever shrinking piece of income, it just won't last.

23 Mind-Blowing Facts About Income Inequality In America
20 More Facts About Inequality That Will Make Your Head Explode

What is the endgame here? However this will end, it won't end well.






b0und (will post more tomorrow)
 
market to market would work great when times are good... too good. but will work incredibly bad when things are bad... really really bad.

no way would i advocate it in your example cause you would get huge paper gains and huge paper losses.

you cannot compare apples to oranges.. real estate which has no true value unless actually bought/sold vs. securities which we can see the value of second by second and have an end of day price.

when it comes to real estate NO.. when it comes to securities. YES X2

Even if we did that, it would only work for widely-traded securities. There are plenty (if not most) assets that can't be easily evaluated:

- Any thinly-traded public security
- All privately-held companies
- Any company that derives its value from a more complex structure

I agree you can't compare apples to oranges, but if you give me a little GE stock, a few oil futures, a few interest rate swap agreements and an exotic derivative contract knitting them together, I can turn any apple into an orange overnight.
 
It's way too late for me, but I give this a stab.

Large social security, where income earners pay for recipients is in fact unsustainable in most western countries, especially the US. What is worse is that it's a Ponzi scheme. When SS started in the US there were 16 payers for 1 receiver, now it's 2 to 1, by the time all the baby boomers retire it will be even.

Europe is nothing like the US, all countries have different SS systems and generally much better functioning health care systems. No other European country is an unsustainable basket case like Greece.

For a country to function however it must have a working SS system as well as a functioning, affordable health care system. Without those you can watch your country turn into a 3rd world shithole where people will kill you for your wallet.

Again, SS funding is only part of the problem. Ever increasing inequality in income earned is the main problem that is unsustainable. You can't expect the majority of the population to accept an ever shrinking piece of income, it just won't last.

23 Mind-Blowing Facts About Income Inequality In America
20 More Facts About Inequality That Will Make Your Head Explode

What is the endgame here? However this will end, it won't end well.






b0und (will post more tomorrow)

It's looking more and more like Italy and perhaps even France are slipping into the basket case black hole.
 
Heres the way I see it.

550274_700b.jpg



Also, why is the magic # 250,000?
 
In the final analysis the money has to come from somewhere to support those large european social programs.
 
Heres the way I see it.

550274_700b.jpg



Also, why is the magic # 250,000?

It has to be a concrete #, and based on statistical analyses of all the socioeconomic factors, 250k is determined to be the reasonable dollar amount between those who can absorb the taxes and those who cant. Once again its based on many factors applied across millions of people and averages that entails.
Its also the number the goobermint determined will generate the best tax revenue.
 
Even if we did that, it would only work for widely-traded securities. There are plenty (if not most) assets that can't be easily evaluated:

- Any thinly-traded public security
- All privately-held companies
- Any company that derives its value from a more complex structure
.

if you didn't mark to market securities then people would just leave their losers on margin and leave brokerages holding the bag. thats the purpose of margin requirements and margin/fed calls. to make sure people keep enough equity to cover losses.
 
Blaming large social safety nets for Europe's fiscal problems only addresses part of the issue.

The part that conservatives like to focus on.

BTW, in the US $1 in unemployment benefits yields $1.90 in economic growth.






b0und (just sayin')

.....................But what about when there isn't any $1 available in cash to use for unemployment? Wouldn't that be similar to borrowing on a credit card to go gamble in Las Vegas?

Charles
 
if you didn't mark to market securities then people would just leave their losers on margin and leave brokerages holding the bag. thats the purpose of margin requirements and margin/fed calls. to make sure people keep enough equity to cover losses.

You're still thinking about stocks that can be readily-priced.

Remember my example above? Now assume the company has 12 shareholders, 8 of which are trusts and the other four are a mixture on US and non-US owners.
 
One item to consider is that the US system right now isn't quite left or right. It's more of a combination of the two.
 
Have recent events in Europe made you reconsider the viability of large social safety net economies?

Let's see some evidence on the breakdown of expenses that are bringing down those economies before jumping to conclusions.
 
Pretty sure the proceeds from plunkey castle sale would moar than cover europes financial woes
 
Let's see some evidence on the breakdown of expenses that are bringing down those economies before jumping to conclusions.

Agreed.

But I don't see them spending that much on the military.

And I don't think it's a lack of taxation (but yeah, I always would).

What other major expenses would a European country have other than their social welfare system?
 
Agreed.

But I don't see them spending that much on the military.

And I don't think it's a lack of taxation (but yeah, I always would).

What other major expenses would a European country have other than their social welfare system?

had the global economy not gone into a deep recession it would of never been a problem. the black plague hit europe in 1400 or whatever. and wiped out like half of europe's population or some crazy number of people (have to refresh my memory) .. stuff like this happens and whether you have social programs or not it will always happen. portugal is pretty conservative with their politics and they were one of the first in europe to show signs of problems. Ireland was next. and Italy is run by center right party. so the issues in europe are effecting progressive run and conservative run govt's equally.

scandinavian countries are the most progressive of all and they are as rock solid as ever. and the funny thing is their population isn't growing as most people there only have 1 kid so its not like new people are propping up their social programs like here in the US where we are growing
 
You're still thinking about stocks that can be readily-priced.

Remember my example above? Now assume the company has 12 shareholders, 8 of which are trusts and the other four are a mixture on US and non-US owners.

yes and that is how it already works. the SEC regulates those rules.
 
yes and that is how it already works. the SEC regulates those rules.

Not privately-held or companies with complex capital structures.

Here's a great example: Our captive insurance company funds medical claims for our self-insured health care plan, but also holds buildings that generate rents to pay life insurance policies that are used to offset inheritance taxes in the event key stockholders (i.e. me) die. What's the company worth? Basically whatever we value it at. We couldn't do something cute like value it at less than the book value of the properties, but just about anything above that is fair game.

I would mark to market that business (by playing with things like the liabilities from future medical claims versus the value of the insurance policies) and come-up with almost any tax bill I'd like.
 
scandinavian countries are the most progressive of all and they are as rock solid as ever. and the funny thing is their population isn't growing as most people there only have 1 kid so its not like new people are propping up their social programs like here in the US where we are growing

SSShhhhhh, don't say that too loud or it'll be obvious they're ignoring it...
 
SSShhhhhh, don't say that too loud or it'll be obvious they're ignoring it...

Scandinavia is a good argument for the viability for the large social welfare state. But to what do you attribute their success?
 
Scandinavia is a good argument for the viability for the large social welfare state. But to what do you attribute their success?

everyone gets free top notch education K through post grad, and they don't have to worry about overpopulation in their schools like we do here. in terms of broad education.

great natural resources and very good and trusted companies that provide a lot of well paying jobs. Nokia is based there for example

there is virtually no gap between poor and rich

so education, wealth sharing, and great natural resources.
 
everyone gets free top notch education K through post grad, and they don't have to worry about overpopulation in their schools like we do here. in terms of broad education.

great natural resources and very good and trusted companies that provide a lot of well paying jobs. Nokia is based there for example

there is virtually no gap between poor and rich

so education, wealth sharing, and great natural resources.

Arent there civil fines weighted against each individuals income? Like that guy who got a speeding ticket in a lambo and had to pay something like $75k or something
Thats a good thing IMO
 
Arent there civil fines weighted against each individuals income? Like that guy who got a speeding ticket in a lambo and had to pay something like $75k or something
Thats a good thing IMO
THAT part I agree with 100%. Specifically parking fines. I see it all the time how new Mercedes will be parked at the red curb, blocking traffic, and get the same $45 ticket that anyone else would. To the $1M/year income Mercedes parker, the $45 is the same as a $0.75 meter fee to others. And the scandal about the UCLA football team, getting illegal handicapped plates to park expensive cars near the campus buildings, while real disabled students had to park miles away. The fine is $2500 for illegal parking in a handicapped space in many places in CA, but if you're in a $500K Murcielago, $2500 is nothing but an added convenience fee, probably (at least anyone who spends that on an automobile, doesn't care much about wise spending IMHO).

So any kind of civil fine for wrongdoing should be adjusted to "hurt" the same on rich & poor. NOT with taxes though. That's a whole different ball of wax.

Charles
 
Arent there civil fines weighted against each individuals income? Like that guy who got a speeding ticket in a lambo and had to pay something like $75k or something
Thats a good thing IMO

yes I was gonna write that. and it does make things fair.

example my buddy who drives a porche and is worth 15M probably was going 135mph. his ass went to jail for the night. he ended up having to go to court and pay $500 fine. 500 bucks is chump change for him, the guy blows tens of thousands in casino's. hit him with a 100K fine and lets see how fast he drives then
 
^^^ the problem is cops, firefighters, teachers, engineers, many docs/lawyers fall into the category of those who pay more in taxes cause of other people getting loopholes/cheating.

close the loopholes and cut taxes for those who make under 250K. just like what we are trying to do. i don't see why republicans can't agree to do that.


Exactly my point! Let's drag the money changers down to the gallows pole. Plunkey did not bring us any silver nor any gold, let's not keep him from the gallows pole. I am going to breach that mansion he lives in and make it mine. Then I am going to tax the hell out of his American Express Gold Card, by throwing a crazy ass party at his house with a bunch of hot Puerto Rican girls just dying to meet you.

I should be exempt from paying taxes because I am a exotic-philanthropist, a member of the avant-garde, a charter member of the historical society, and a prolific philosopher, who thinks for other people. Plunk is a pretentious, uncouth philistine, who hoards his wealth, and exploits people like me, who made it possible for him to accrue wealth in the first place. I hope the government reenacts the Sedition Act of 1918 because his ass is going to the pen.

Here is my sacred plan. I hope you folks get this stuff because I am not going to be around here forever. Tax the robber barons at 90%. If they decide to get cute and go abroad with their finances, they automatically denounce their citizenship, and are classified as "traitors." Second, the upper middle class is exempt from paying any kind of taxes especially payroll tax.The government should give the upper middle class a "Special ID," so when they go to purchase commodities they do not get charged with a sales tax or excise tax. Moreover, they should be exempt from paying property, death, and dividend taxes because they are the "state."

The working class (the third estate) pays a 15% flat tax, that is it.. because they are needed to a degree, but they are not indispensable. The poor should be mandated to live in quasi-concentration camps, where they have to work for their room and board. Eliminate the "welfare state" completely, even TANF, that program is a joke. Pass a law, that higher education is compulsory, and fund the Department of Education with boat loads of cash. The State Department should be required to monitor "undocumented" illegals and any immigrant who is granted citizenship, in order to prevent "remittances" from occurring. All the money stays in this country.

Stop distributing Social Security checks. Social Security is the biggest fallacy in the history of the United States of America. There has never been a "trust fund," that has been set aside just for Social Security. When they take FICA out of our checks, that money goes to pay for some unneeded social program. The Treasury prints checks and disperses them, knowingly, they have to write interest bearing IOUs to the proverbial Social Security Administration (Helvering v. Davis). To cover the cost, the government raises our taxes, and forces the Federal Reserve to print more money, which devalues our currency----causing inflation.. Social Security focuses on "need" and is justified by taxes paid (Friedman). Stop printing checks!!

I have more but time has failed me...








More important, a host of unemployed citizens face the grim problem of existence, and an equally great number toil with little return. Only a foolish optimist can deny the dark realities of the moment.

Yet our distress comes from no failure of substance. We are stricken by no plague of locusts. Compared with the perils which our forefathers conquered because they believed and were not afraid, we have still much to be thankful for. Nature still offers her bounty and human efforts have multiplied it. Plenty is at our doorstep, but a generous use of it languishes in the very sight of the supply. Primarily this is because the rulers of the exchange of mankind’s goods have failed, through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men.

True they have tried, but their efforts have been cast in the pattern of an outworn tradition. Faced by failure of credit they have proposed only the lending of more money. Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored confidence. They know only the rules of a generation of self-seekers. They have no vision, and when there is no vision the people perish.

The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths. The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit.

Happiness lies not in the mere possession of money; it lies in the joy of achievement, in the thrill of creative effort. The joy and moral stimulation of work no longer must be forgotten in the mad chase of evanescent profits. These dark days will be worth all they cost us if they teach us that our true destiny is not to be ministered unto but to minister to ourselves and to our fellow men.
 
everyone gets free top notch education K through post grad, and they don't have to worry about overpopulation in their schools like we do here. in terms of broad education.

great natural resources and very good and trusted companies that provide a lot of well paying jobs. Nokia is based there for example

there is virtually no gap between poor and rich

so education, wealth sharing, and great natural resources.

I would question a couple of things:

1) Is their model scalable? We're dealing with an economy and population that's a sliver of our size.

2) Would our society ever agree to that sort of control? We owned a Sweedish business from ~1996 to ~2000 and it was an incredibly frustrating experience. Then I got to relive the experience when we (GE) bought Instrumentarium in 2003.

3) Is their model sustainable? It's my understanding that a big part of their success today came from dramatic cuts they did in the 1990's.

4) Don't they count their government jobs (even the make-work ones) as part of their GDP?
 
Exactly my point! Let's drag the money changers down to the gallows pole. Plunkey did not bring us any silver nor any gold, let's not keep him from the gallows pole. I am going to breach that mansion he lives in and make it mine. Then I am going to tax the hell out of his American Express Gold Card, by throwing a crazy ass party at his house with a bunch of hot Puerto Rican girls just dying to meet you.

I should be exempt from paying taxes because I am a exotic-philanthropist, a member of the avant-garde, a charter member of the historical society, and a prolific philosopher, who thinks for other people. Plunk is a pretentious, uncouth philistine, who hoards his wealth, and exploits people like me, who made it possible for him to accrue wealth in the first place. I hope the government reenacts the Sedition Act of 1918 because his ass is going to the pen.

Here is my sacred plan. I hope you folks get this stuff because I am not going to be around here forever. Tax the robber barons at 90%. If they decide to get cute and go abroad with their finances, they automatically denounce their citizenship, and are classified as "traitors." Second, the upper middle class is exempt from paying any kind of taxes especially payroll tax.The government should give the upper middle class a "Special ID," so when they go to purchase commodities they do not get charged with a sales tax or excise tax. Moreover, they should be exempt from paying property, death, and dividend taxes because they are the "state."

The working class (the third estate) pays a 15% flat tax, that is it.. because they are needed to a degree, but they are not indispensable. The poor should be mandated to live in quasi-concentration camps, where they have to work for their room and board. Eliminate the "welfare state" completely, even TANF, that program is a joke. Pass a law, that higher education is compulsory, and fund the Department of Education with boat loads of cash. The State Department should be required to monitor "undocumented" illegals and any immigrant who is granted citizenship, in order to prevent "remittances" from occurring. All the money stays in this country.

Stop distributing Social Security checks. Social Security is the biggest fallacy in the history of the United States of America. There has never been a "trust fund," that has been set aside just for Social Security. When they take FICA out of our checks, that money goes to pay for some unneeded social program. The Treasury prints checks and disperses them, knowingly, they have to write interest bearing IOUs to the proverbial Social Security Administration (Helvering v. Davis). To cover the cost, the government raises our taxes, and forces the Federal Reserve to print more money, which devalues our currency----causing inflation.. Social Security focuses on "need" and is justified by taxes paid (Friedman). Stop printing checks!!

I have more but time has failed me...








More important, a host of unemployed citizens face the grim problem of existence, and an equally great number toil with little return. Only a foolish optimist can deny the dark realities of the moment.

Yet our distress comes from no failure of substance. We are stricken by no plague of locusts. Compared with the perils which our forefathers conquered because they believed and were not afraid, we have still much to be thankful for. Nature still offers her bounty and human efforts have multiplied it. Plenty is at our doorstep, but a generous use of it languishes in the very sight of the supply. Primarily this is because the rulers of the exchange of mankind’s goods have failed, through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men.

True they have tried, but their efforts have been cast in the pattern of an outworn tradition. Faced by failure of credit they have proposed only the lending of more money. Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored confidence. They know only the rules of a generation of self-seekers. They have no vision, and when there is no vision the people perish.

The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths. The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit.

Happiness lies not in the mere possession of money; it lies in the joy of achievement, in the thrill of creative effort. The joy and moral stimulation of work no longer must be forgotten in the mad chase of evanescent profits. These dark days will be worth all they cost us if they teach us that our true destiny is not to be ministered unto but to minister to ourselves and to our fellow men.

i've stated repeatedly that I am for lower taxes on everyone. but we need to start for the people making under 250K as they are the ones who need it most. i never said to tax 90% but I am for taking tax cheats and white collar criminals money and throwing their pansy asses in prison for screwing people. Bernie Madoff for example gets to spend the rest of his life in prison but the money he stole is now in his children and wifes possession. that is WRONG. since I work in the industry I am much more aware of what goes on and all the insider trading and people cheating and using loopholes. its worse than you think and the SEC is years behind on bringing these guys to justice, most of the time they get away with it or hide their money

I want you to look up this guy for example Paul Bilzerian. google his name.. he was a corporate raider and did a lot of insider trading.. he got busted and went to prison. he still owes millions but he claims to not have any money to pay back the victims.. yet he lives in a 14 bedroom lakefront home in FL. I'm all for people making money, but lets face it these guys get away with screwing people way too much
 
I would question a couple of things:

1) Is their model scalable? We're dealing with an economy and population that's a sliver of our size.

where did i say it was? i merely gave you the reasons, i didn't say we should adopt them.

2) Would our society ever agree to that sort of control? We owned a Sweedish business from ~1996 to ~2000 and it was an incredibly frustrating experience. Then I got to relive the experience when we (GE) bought Instrumentarium in 2003.

I am assuming you mean the whole ticket thing. no i don't think americans would ever agree to it cause americans all think one day they will be rich. everyone seems to want to make money who is under 25, and flaunt it around.. drive nice cars, live in big houses, wear nice clothes. we all are wannabe's cause we are swampt with nonstop advertising and have to have the new thing all the time. a bmw made in 2000 is considered old and outdated for americans, yet in other countries its normal to see 15 year old german cars on the highway. here everyone has to have a newer car.

3) Is their model sustainable? It's my understanding that a big part of their success today came from dramatic cuts they did in the 1990's.

any model isn't sustainable, but their model seems to work right now. i'm sure if it starts not working they will adjust it over time.

4) Don't they count their government jobs (even the make-work ones) as part of their GDP?

why shouldn't govt jobs count toward GDP?
bolded
 
i've stated repeatedly that I am for lower taxes on everyone. but we need to start for the people making under 250K as they are the ones who need it most. i never said to tax 90% but I am for taking tax cheats and white collar criminals money and throwing their pansy asses in prison for screwing people. Bernie Madoff for example gets to spend the rest of his life in prison but the money he stole is now in his children and wifes possession. that is WRONG. since I work in the industry I am much more aware of what goes on and all the insider trading and people cheating and using loopholes. its worse than you think and the SEC is years behind on bringing these guys to justice, most of the time they get away with it or hide their money

I want you to look up this guy for example Paul Bilzerian. google his name.. he was a corporate raider and did a lot of insider trading.. he got busted and went to prison. he still owes millions but he claims to not have any money to pay back the victims.. yet he lives in a 14 bedroom lakefront home in FL. I'm all for people making money, but lets face it these guys get away with screwing people way too much


I read that article. He went to Harvard, another Ivy League swindler, figure the odds on that?? The article I read, quoted one of his former classmates as being "envious" of him. Can you imagine being envious of a thief?? That goes to show you what the Ivy League produces. I thought the SEC was involved in the housing scam?? I thought Chris Cox (ex-chairman) was in cahoots with B. Frank and C. Dodd???
 
Actually, I thought it was quite insightful. Nevertheless, philistines will never understand the avant-garde..

Actually, calling someone a Philistine is a compliment because they were more militarily, technologically and culturally advanced in comparison to the Israelites....Just sayin...
 
Actually, calling someone a Philistine is a compliment because they were more militarily, technologically and culturally advanced in comparison to the Israelites....Just sayin...

Which just goes to show you don't mess with god!
 
Which just goes to show you don't mess with god!


Lol, I was not using "philistine" in the "bible" context. Look up "philistine" in Websters, it means anti-intellectual or someone who dislikes artists and musicians. I expect someone like Java not know that.. You are right about one thing, Java is the most evangelical individual I have ever had the displeasure to encounter. Maybe, that is his abuse issue, maybe, his parents beat him over the head with a KJs bible?? or raped him in the name of Jesus.. Something is not right, considering everything he talks about reverts back to Jesus... Nevertheless, I never would have expected you not to pick-up on that one.. Java has been defeated, that is why he is reaching, failed again!!!

No, that means do not mess with me, nevermind God, worry about me.. You need to stop ducking me and get some guts and face me with your "player hater degree," I mean PhD.. We need to discuss about how you are going to pay me back for making your multinational ass rich. You owe me war indemnities.. You decide how you are going to pay me. I have been a loyal buffer for you long enough.. I know you are out there Mr. Rockefeller, stop hiding... No, I am not using dot, dot, dot as an ellipsis, it is inflection, you "philistines" do not understand the avant-garde and never will... Last, capitalize "God," you are disappointing me!
 
Lol, I was not using "philistine" in the "bible" context. Look up "philistine" in Websters, it means anti-intellectual or someone who dislikes artists and musicians. I expect someone like Java not know that.. You are right about one thing, Java is the most evangelical individual I have ever had the displeasure to encounter. Maybe, that is his abuse issue, maybe, his parents beat him over the head with a KJs bible?? or raped him in the name of Jesus.. Something is not right, considering everything he talks about reverts back to Jesus... Nevertheless, I never would have expected you not to pick-up on that one.. Java has been defeated, that is why he is reaching, failed again!!!

No, that means do not mess with me, nevermind God, worry about me.. You need to stop ducking me and get some guts and face me with your "player hater degree," I mean PhD.. We need to discuss about how you are going to pay me back for making your multinational ass rich. You owe me war indemnities.. You decide how you are going to pay me. I have been a loyal buffer for you long enough.. I know you are out there Mr. Rockefeller, stop hiding... No, I am not using dot, dot, dot as an ellipsis, it is inflection, you "philistines" do not understand the avant-garde and never will... Last, capitalize "God," you are disappointing me!

Pssst... That was a shot at Java and had absolutely nothing to do with you.

I understand that you don't get that, but I am now compelled to resume ignoring your posts and pretending you do not exist.

Please carry on.
 
Lol, I was not using "philistine" in the "bible" context. Look up "philistine" in Websters, it means anti-intellectual or someone who dislikes artists and musicians. I expect someone like Java not know that.. You are right about one thing, Java is the most evangelical individual I have ever had the displeasure to encounter. Maybe, that is his abuse issue, maybe, his parents beat him over the head with a KJs bible?? or raped him in the name of Jesus.. Something is not right, considering everything he talks about reverts back to Jesus... Nevertheless, I never would have expected you not to pick-up on that one.. Java has been defeated, that is why he is reaching, failed again!!!

No, that means do not mess with me, nevermind God, worry about me.. You need to stop ducking me and get some guts and face me with your "player hater degree," I mean PhD.. We need to discuss about how you are going to pay me back for making your multinational ass rich. You owe me war indemnities.. You decide how you are going to pay me. I have been a loyal buffer for you long enough.. I know you are out there Mr. Rockefeller, stop hiding... No, I am not using dot, dot, dot as an ellipsis, it is inflection, you "philistines" do not understand the avant-garde and never will... Last, capitalize "God," you are disappointing me!

Of coure you would use the pop culture Phillistine reference because you have no grasp of history. You simply regurgitate the propaganda you were taught in the corps and whatever conspiracy theory twaddle and sheit is shared in your social circle; You aren't a serious person.
 
Of coure you would use the pop culture Phillistine reference because you have no grasp of history. You simply regurgitate the propaganda you were taught in the corps and whatever conspiracy theory twaddle and sheit is shared in your social circle; You aren't a serious person.


No, I am not serious on the net. You have to admit my posts are sexy. You keep coming for more.. You sound like my ex-fiancee, she was such a serious person.. That is why I threw her ass out! One, two, three, FOUR, I love the Marine CORE.. Well, you certainly took the bait for "the pop culture" definition of philistine. Besides, I thought the bible was mythology? Now you are calling it history----you played yourself again---at least I pick a side and stand by it! I suppose "traddle and sheit is original"? All your posts stem from "spontaneous cognition"? That is your persuasion. I think you been reading too many "vogue" magazines..Try reading Flex Magazine, considering this a steriod site, which you never post in the aas forum, meaning you are a troll..

Now excuse me, I have to attend to my trivial matters, I will leave the profound matters to the esoteric group, and the enlightened thinkers, you havn't developed a Voltaire complex have you?? LOl.. I think you have developed a Oscar Wilde complex----since you are a outstanding historian you should not have to google Oscar Wilde--- Goodnite my sweetheart, I am sure will meet again...
 
No, I am not serious on the net. You have to admit my posts are sexy. You keep coming for more.. You sound like my ex-fiancee, she was such a serious person.. That is why I threw her ass out! One, two, three, FOUR, I love the Marine CORE.. Well, you certainly took the bait for "the pop culture" definition of philistine. Besides, I thought the bible was mythology? Now you are calling it history----you played yourself again---at least I pick a side and stand by it! I suppose "traddle and sheit is original"? All your posts stem from "spontaneous cognition"? That is your persuasion. I think you been reading too many "vogue" magazines..Try reading Flex Magazine, considering this a steriod site, which you never post in the aas forum, meaning you are a troll..

Now excuse me, I have to attend to my trivial matters, I will leave the profound matters to the esoteric group, and the enlightened thinkers, you havn't developed a Voltaire complex have you?? LOl.. I think you have developed a Oscar Wilde complex----since you are a outstanding historian you should not have to google Oscar Wilde--- Goodnite my sweetheart, I am sure will meet again...

*we'll
 
No, I am not serious on the net. You have to admit my posts are sexy. You keep coming for more.. You sound like my ex-fiancee, she was such a serious person.. That is why I threw her ass out! One, two, three, FOUR, I love the Marine CORE.. Well, you certainly took the bait for "the pop culture" definition of philistine. Besides, I thought the bible was mythology? Now you are calling it history----you played yourself again---at least I pick a side and stand by it! I suppose "traddle and sheit is original"? All your posts stem from "spontaneous cognition"? That is your persuasion. I think you been reading too many "vogue" magazines..Try reading Flex Magazine, considering this a steriod site, which you never post in the aas forum, meaning you are a troll..

Now excuse me, I have to attend to my trivial matters, I will leave the profound matters to the esoteric group, and the enlightened thinkers, you havn't developed a Voltaire complex have you?? LOl.. I think you have developed a Oscar Wilde complex----since you are a outstanding historian you should not have to google Oscar Wilde--- Goodnite my sweetheart, I am sure will meet again...

You're confusing archeological data with mythology...The mythology lead to the pop culture definition; The archeology tells a different story.

The last magazine I had a subscription to was Muscle Media 2000. Admitting to reading Flex magazine just proves you buy into whatever you are told...That's understandable because that's how you were brainwashed in the corps.

I stopped posting in the AAS forum because there hasn't been an original post in years. I was tired of answering, "Which test is best" and "Can I drink winny." I had a pile of posts on the "pro-hormones" years ago but it was a new frontier and I was converting them to injectables as a lab monkey. For the record, it doesn't matter what ester you take because the atomic weight of the ester is almost irrelevant, it's the dosage that matters.

History is somewhat subjective but science is about cold hard facts and you don't want to engage me when it comes to chemistry.
 
First of all "liberal" isn't a pejorative term to us, so whether you call us "progressives" or "liberals" doesn't matter to us. To answer the question, no, I do not believe that social safety nets caused the downturn in the European economy any more than our social programs caused the recession in America. The Republicans play on a "divide and conquer" agenda. They attempt to keep the middle class blaming the poor so that they hopefully don't focus on their shenanigans.
 
First of all "liberal" isn't a pejorative term to us, so whether you call us "progressives" or "liberals" doesn't matter to us. To answer the question, no, I do not believe that social safety nets caused the downturn in the European economy any more than our social programs caused the recession in America. The Republicans play on a "divide and conquer" agenda. They attempt to keep the middle class blaming the poor so that they hopefully don't focus on their shenanigans.

Heatherae!

I used the word "progressive" so those who do feel offended by "liberal" wouldn't break-out the flamethrowers.
 
Heatherae!

I used the word "progressive" so those who do feel offended by "liberal" wouldn't break-out the flamethrowers.

I embrace the term liberal just like I embraced nerdism in high school...I'm a classic liberal and not a progressive. A progressive is a Statist, they believe that a select group of intellectuals can regulate and control society for the greater good...The Neo-cons under Shrub were no different than the current Obama Chicago acolytes; There are progressives in the Dem and Repub parties....
 
First of all "liberal" isn't a pejorative term to us, so whether you call us "progressives" or "liberals" doesn't matter to us. To answer the question, no, I do not believe that social safety nets caused the downturn in the European economy any more than our social programs caused the recession in America. The Republicans play on a "divide and conquer" agenda. They attempt to keep the middle class blaming the poor so that they hopefully don't focus on their shenanigans.

I agree, the economic downturn was just their call. Politicians were able to continue their lies until the money ran out...It's simple math....
 
lol...leadhead is twaddle and sheit...

He's the bastard son of Sarah Patin and Glenn Beck of EF...

Go back to the juicer board and ask which test is best....
 
lol...leadhead is twaddle and sheit...

He's the bastard son of Sarah Patin and Glenn Beck of EF...

Go back to the juicer board and ask which test is best....
GEORGE SPELLWIN'S
ELITE FITNESS
ANABOLIC STEROIDS AND BODYBUILDING FORUMS

THE STEROIDS AND BODY BUILDING MEGA SITE.

Here's a link to the front page of the site (since it's been a while since you've seen it).
Bodybuilding: Anabolic Steroids, EliteFitness.com

This site is geared for Bodybuilders and "juicer's" as you would say.
You do not venture there. Looks like your on the wrong web site in general.

This is where you belong
Political Forum - US & World Politics Forum
Debate Politics Forums
Discussion Forums - Politics Forum .org
U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum - The Front Page
House of Politics - Political Forum
Political Hotwire
Political Fray - Political Forum

Look at all those wonderful sites for you and SquidlyPlunkster to play on. And they are all geared to what you guys ONLY do here on a Bodybuilding based Website.
I'm getting fucking sick and tired of strictly C&C people down talking the Main forums of this site. You want to label and name call bodybuilders then go to a different fucking site.
The "Juicers" don't want you here neither.
 
Rob...I'm juice free for about a decade and I can still push over 400 lbs on the bench and over 600 on the squat and dead.

You should stop venturing into the C&C board and stick to the..."Is my juice cycle awesome" bored...because we old school juicers are bored by your twaddle and sheit.

I'm tired of dumbass uneducated juicers that think Rachel Maddow is the second coming of jesus coming to C&C. Stick to your bored...Misspelling intentional...
 
Rob...I'm juice free for about a decade and I can still push over 400 lbs on the bench and over 600 on the squat and dead.

You should stop venturing into the C&C board and stick to the..."Is my juice cycle awesome" bored...because we old school juicers are bored by your twaddle and sheit.

I'm tired of dumbass uneducated juicers that think Rachel Maddow is the second coming of jesus coming to C&C. Stick to your bored...Misspelling intentional...
You "grew out" of this site. you can move on Coffee.
I respect your old school, But it's a shame you dont go to help the "uneducated" juicers instead of sitting in here shit talking them and babbling only.
 
You "grew out" of this site. you can move on Coffee.
I respect your old school, But it's a shame you dont go to help the "uneducated" juicers instead of sitting in here and babbling only.

You realize that you're posting in C&C right? Not about juicing...
 
It's the new round brown strategy: "When they embarrass you over your disastrous world view, tell them they don't belong on the site."

I am entertained.

And round brown, shouldn't you be over in the AAS section asking if you can drink winny?
 
You realize that you're posting in C&C right? Not about juicing...


Let's go over to the AAS forum. You are on line.. bring Plunkey, after reading his thread on TRT, he definitely can use a lesson in AAS 101...

I hate being 6'1 250 @ 7% bf, because everyone's bitch wants to get with me...

Start a thread in the AAS forum..please come on! I never use an AI, because I never hold estrogen unlike you, you have estrogen permeating through your pores...
 
Last edited:
You realize you only talk Politics on a Anabolic Steroid and Bodybuilding Web site right? It's in the Title.

You realize that you are posting on the chat and conversation board right? That means people will engage in chat and conversation....
Chat
noun
informal conversation: We had a pleasant chat.

Conversation
noun
informal interchange of thoughts, information, etc.

Likewise, this is a direct quote from the board for what C&C is about...
"A forum for all non-bodybuilding talk!"

It seems to me that you are out of line....just sayin'.
 
Let's go over to the AAS forum. You are on line.. bring Plunkey, after reading his thread on TRT, he definitely can use a lesson in AAS 101...

I hate being 6'1 250 @ 7% bf, because everyone's bitch wants to get with me...

Start a thread in the AAS forum..please come on! I never use an AI, because I never hold estrogen unlike you, you have estrogen permeating through your pores...

Post pics of your massive manliness..no nudes please...I don't swing your way..just substantiate your claims...My pics are already here..and they're non-juicing pics...

LOL @ your stupid trolling....I actually posted on the AAS forum about using a gram of test a week and not using an anti-estrogen as an experiment...Not even itchy nipples noob...

P.S. Apparently "the bitches" don't really want to "get with you" because no chick has been willing to put up with your crazy...just sayin'.
 
You realize that you are posting on the chat and conversation board right? That means people will engage in chat and conversation....
Chat
noun
informal conversation: We had a pleasant chat.

Conversation
noun
informal interchange of thoughts, information, etc.

Likewise, this is a direct quote from the board for what C&C is about...
"A forum for all non-bodybuilding talk!"

It seems to me that you are out of line....just sayin'.
You realize that the Chat and Conversation board is on an Anabolic Steroid and Bodybuilding website right?
That means that people that people engage in Conversation about bodybuilding and Steroids.
Bodybuilding
verb
The act of performing exercises to build muscle.

Bodybuilding website/Forum :
A place were people engage in conversations about Bodybuilding. "Elitefitness is a great forum for bodybuilding and AAS information".


Polical website/forum :
A place where people engage in Politcal debates. "Coffeeguru really love's his polictical debates on Politics.com".

Sure, there are sections here Not about bodybuilding. Does that mean this section (of a AAS/BB forum) is a place for you to call the AAS forum participators names?
The Other parts of the forum are what this site is about. Not C&C. C&C is not whyEF is here. It's just another area for the members to VISIT and talk about what ever.
C&C was not made for people to ONLY participate here. I know it for a fact. Because it is a SUB-forum, and definately not in the title of the site.
Whats out of line is the fact that you probably have a wealth of knowledge for the new Bodybuilders, but you sit here only and waste server space.
 
You realize that the Chat and Conversation board is on an Anabolic Steroid and Bodybuilding website right?
That means that people that people engage in Conversation about bodybuilding and Steroids.
Bodybuilding
verb
The act of performing exercises to build muscle.

Bodybuilding website/Forum :
A place were people engage in conversations about Bodybuilding. "Elitefitness is a great forum for bodybuilding and AAS information".


Polical website/forum :
A place where people engage in Politcal debates. "Coffeeguru really love's his polictical debates on Politics.com".

Sure, there are sections here Not about bodybuilding. Does that mean this section (of a AAS/BB forum) is a place for you to call the AAS forum participators names?
The Other parts of the forum are what this site is about. Not C&C. C&C is not whyEF is here. It's just another area for the members to VISIT and talk about what ever.
C&C was not made for people to ONLY participate here. I know it for a fact. Because it is a SUB-forum, and definately not in the title of the site.
Whats out of line is the fact that you probably have a wealth of knowledge for the new Bodybuilders, but you sit here only and waste server space.

He's a lifetime plat member. As long as he adheres to the forum rules, he can post anything he likes.

If this site is supposed to be AAS-only, why do you come blathering into C&C with your horribly skewed liberal world view? Shouldn't you be spending your highly valuable time in the AAS section educating the unwashed masses?
 
You realize that the Chat and Conversation board is on an Anabolic Steroid and Bodybuilding website right?
That means that people that people engage in Conversation about bodybuilding and Steroids.
Bodybuilding
verb
The act of performing exercises to build muscle.

Bodybuilding website/Forum :
A place were people engage in conversations about Bodybuilding. "Elitefitness is a great forum for bodybuilding and AAS information".


Polical website/forum :
A place where people engage in Politcal debates. "Coffeeguru really love's his polictical debates on Politics.com".

Sure, there are sections here Not about bodybuilding. Does that mean this section (of a AAS/BB forum) is a place for you to call the AAS forum participators names?
The Other parts of the forum are what this site is about. Not C&C. C&C is not whyEF is here. It's just another area for the members to VISIT and talk about what ever.
C&C was not made for people to ONLY participate here. I know it for a fact. Because it is a SUB-forum, and definately not in the title of the site.
Whats out of line is the fact that you probably have a wealth of knowledge for the new Bodybuilders, but you sit here only and waste server space.

I'll reiterate, since you seem to have missed my post...

"Chat & Conversation
A forum for all non-bodybuilding talk!"..emphasis mine.

Elite fitness has more areas for non-bodybuilding talk than they do for bodybuidling related discussions..just sayin'...Don't go to a "sub-forum" and complain about the content if you don't want to participate. I don't go to the juicer board because I don't want to participate...I have paid money to support the site unlike many on the juicer board. Likewise, the site sells plenty of information on the subject...the newbs should do what I did...buy a book..get a foundation of knowledge and then start participating in discussions. I'm a capitalist and one of the interesting things I've learned over the course of my life is that anything freely given is never really valued.
 
I think budgets should be balances for more years than not. I can see a need to maybe run a deficit for limited periods of time, but fundamentally I believe you shouldn't spend more than you take in. Its not a good policy.
 
I like Pie..

anything that stops or inhibits that pursuit is wrong.

anyone that thinks they have the right to take from me what i have earned should bring the police with them..
 
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