Doing Core Work first

[coolcolj]

I've tried it, and I think it works great!

It's a nice warmup as well. And gets it out of the way, so I don't have to bother with it at the end of a session when I'm too lazy
Doesn't seem to compromise core strength at all seems to enhance it actually. And I know for a fact that doing regular exercise warmups don't really activate the core all that much.


It was recommended to me by someone - here is the quote of the post to me

Chad Touchberry
Monday, August 18, 2003 9:21 AM
Whats up... a few things 1. If you want to get timing for full cleans, drop power cleans. Do yourself a favor and full clean from the high hang, above the knee, then from the floor. 2. Your exercise order could be improved.

a. core work 1st b. Overhead stuff 2nd c. Olympic lifts and versions d. Squats (jump or speed first, heavy and slow on another day.) You can't ideally train two properties at once. e. I understand the reason for the isometric contraction prior to the squats, but your efforts may be better directed holding the squat at 90 degrees.

Just some things to think about.

Chad

David Woodhouse
Monday, August 18, 2003 10:46 AM

Exercise order depend on the principle training objective. Generally 'core' work should be done last since fatigued abs, obliques and erectors detract from performance of large compound movements like squats and OL lifts.

Generally, I agree squats should be performed after the technical lifts. However, there IS some evidence that squatting first can generate potentiation and hence improve performance in the subsequent faster exercises. Obviously, if you choose to squat first reps should be kept low (I usually recommend a limit of 3). Some older athletes find squats also warm up the joints...

I believe two training components can be trained together. That's what all Olympic lifters do! Squat to improve maximum force; Clean/Snatch to improve RFD. If you perform OLs do you really need a WS speed squat day or jump squats?!

I also agree, Colin would improve technically if he didn't 'complex' three different styles of lift within the same set (power clean from floor; power clean from low hang, full clean from high hang). It will only confuse the nervous system and is certainly less than optimal in terms of motor learning. I believe he tries to achieve too much within one session (cycle!) but it gets results so... Maybe CCJ you shouldn't jump on every Thibadeau band wagon!

Chad Touchberry
Monday, August 18, 2003 12:20 PM

David,
First let me start off by saying great post. We actually do agree on most of what you said. Its good to see intellegent discussions on here for a change!

"Exercise order depend on the principle training objective." It sure does. And as we know colJ is a power freak. Lives it loves it thrives on it. As a beginner (like colJ), I think the order I prescribed is ideal.

"Generally 'core' work should be done last since fatigued abs, obliques and erectors detract from performance of large compound movements like squats and OL lifts." Yes and know. Its a difference in philosophy. My experience training even higher end athletes has taught me that core work at the end is usually shrugged off. Also, isn't important to train your weakness first? I would argue that there is no such thing as a core that is too strong. If you cant transfer power from the legs through the upper body, what good does it do you?

"However, there IS some evidence that squatting first can generate potentiation and hence improve performance in the subsequent faster exercises." There sure is evidence in the lit, as well as in real life. Bulgaria! Also a technique used at the OTC.

"Some older athletes find squats also warm up the joints... " Agree Low volume, low intensity though.

"I believe two training components can be trained together." So do I, most often however, it may not be ideal. As you said, CCJ tries to do too much in a session or cycle.

"Squat to improve maximum force; Clean/Snatch to improve RFD. If you perform OLs do you really need a WS speed squat day or jump squats?!" Good argument! The question is do the OL's really improve speed beyond a point? Max power is acheived way lower than at 80%. I think they are usefull from time to time....as are plyos.

Thanks for the exchange David!

Good Training,

Chad

David Woodhouse
Monday, August 18, 2003 2:09 PM

Let's not call an end to the discussion just yet....
'Max power is acheived way lower than at 80%. I think they are usefull from time to time'

LOL. CCJ's power cleans are performed at significantly less than 80% of the limit equivalent (read DLs). Consider what percentages snatches and power snatches equate to. I stand by my statement 110%. Who are the most powerful athletes in the world? Weightlifters. How many elite weightlifters perform squats at 60%?

RE: Core work first.

A recipe for spinal injury. Can't give one example of a national or international standard athlete who follows your protocol. Core exercises like pulling movements and squats heavily (and specifically) activate the core. I have three national weightlifting champions who perform no core work at all!

Kim Baugher
Monday, August 18, 2003 2:13 PM

David, for the most part I agree with your post. Just a few points I wanted to mention... My experience has been similar to Chad's when it comes to core work. Unless I do it at the beginning, it gets put off. Also, from personal experience, prioritizing core work (i.e. placing it at the beginning of a workout) has proven to really help out my other lifts in the past, so I continue to do so.

The same goes for squatting. You make a good point about squats have a potentiation effect on the Olympic lifts. I also think it's a good idea to prioritize them if they're a weak point for you; occasionally, a lifter may lack limit strength to the point where it would be a good idea for them to squat first.

As for the use of complexes, I think they have their time and place. I think they're particularly useful if the lifter has problems "sensing" where to rack the bar. I had this problem in the past, and using a power clean/squat clean complex greatly improved it. I do also agree though that it's important to drill a particular skill to develop that skill.


Chad Touchberry
Monday, August 18, 2003 2:23 PM

"I stand by my statement 110%. Who are the most powerful athletes in the world? Weightlifters. How many elite weightlifters perform squats at 60%?" I agree, mind you I was an olympic lifter. How many do squats at 60%...a few. How many do plyos? A few. But you have to admit, we are not training an olympic weightlifter here. I would say that throwers are every bit, if not more explosive than OL's. The 40 yd times and vert jumps are very similar. Many throwers do speed squats, squat jumps, ect...

"A recipe for spinal injury. Can't give one example of a national or international standard athlete who follows your protocol. Core exercises like pulling movements and squats heavily (and specifically) activate the core. I have three national weightlifting champions who perform no core work at all!"

Show me 3 research articles that point to your claim of spinal injury!

Actually I used this method to overcome a massive injury. I had avulsion fractures of my transverse vertebrae from squatting. I too used to do core work last and it got me 6 months of physical therapy. I have not had any back pain since I train the core first.

EVERY resident athelete at the USOC in Lake Placid does core work first. And my roomate, a collegiate national champion in weightlifting also trains the core first.

I lifted for the 4 time and current collegiate national championship team. I have lifted with Jr. Pan Am members. Coached em too. Some do core work, some don't. None of them do it first. Most of them have back pain.

You mention the lifts stressing the core, but how in ColJ's case does working under 80% of a max 1 RM strengthen the core????

We each bring up good points, there is just more than one way to skin a cat. I have tried your way...It works. I like mine better. Have you tried it?

Good Debate!

Chad


David Woodhouse
Monday, August 18, 2003 2:38 PM

Don't was this discussion to descend to 'X does this Y does that' it proves nothing. Have a read of my Squatting essay on the article page, particularly the paragraph on spinal stiffness and intra-abdominal pressure. Also check the McGill references...



Todd Wilson
Monday, August 18, 2003 2:47 PM

Valid points have been made, but one thing both of you have not mentioned which is crucial to this discussion is the degree of residual fatigue from ab work placed at the beginning of the workout. For example, 4 sets of swiss ball crunches for 8-12 reps probably won't negatively effect another lift. However, if 3 sets per exercise for 5 exercises for 15 reps each are performed the residual fatigue may be enough to effect the stability of another lift. Also, just as the squat may potentiate other movements, so can abdominal training. Before any overhead work I recommend some ab work, but not to the point of fatigue at all when I move on to other movements.

 

[Zander1983]

And gets it out of the way, so I don't have to bother with it at the end of a session when I'm too lazy

That's why I might start doing it first.

I still do it at the end, but I'm more likely to half-arse it just to get it out of the way and pretend that it was worthwhile.

I'd consider it a weakness of mine, so it would make sense to prioritize.

 

[coolcolj]

more

Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:21 AM Bompa "Periodization of Strength" , pg 60. Law 3: Before developing the limbs develop the core of the body! Law 4: Before developing prime movers, develop the stabilizers.
Chad

LaxGuy
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:30 AM Good points. The core is used is almost everything, which is why I like to train that almost every workout. However, I don't necessairly see the point of training the stabalizers (since they are trained while performing the actual lift) first, unless it is a ball and socket joint (because of the large amount of instability of the joint to begin with).

Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:38 AM Stabilization... the core stabilizes! Also, most overuse injuries occur due to failure of the stabilizers to maintain proper mechanics. This is most true in the shoulder, but also at the knee with the VMO. Stabilizers must be isolated in order to be strengthened to their fullest degree. A lesson well learned at Pitt.
Chad


LaxGuy
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:52 AM I should have clarified. I don't understand the necessity of training the stabilizers of joints involved in a particular movement, except ball and socket joints (shoulder and hip, for example). I also agree all stabalizers need to be isolated to get them as strong as possible, as is the case with any lean body tissue. But with training any movement the joint stabalizers will get stronger at the same time as the prime movers - just look at a person's knee ligaments before starting to squat, and three months later (again, the exception being ball-and-socket joints). So, although it is necessary to get them as strong as possible, isolating them isn't necessairly necessary in all cases.

jake gunter
leg extensions Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:55 AM "Stabilizers must be isolated in order to be strengthened to their fullest degree. A lesson well learned at Pitt." I take it you got injured at Pitt by not doing enough direct stabilizer work. You don't mean calve raise, leg curl and such? I know Stone advocates more multi-joint movements, and really no direct single joint stuff, like extensions, tri work, biceps. I have dropped my tri extension work in favor of more lockout work, which has worked. I agree with the importance of the core work, oblique, low back and abs, all forming a beautiful natural belt of armor.(got that phrase from someone else). I don't know about training abs every day, or at least heavey every day. Rotating between oblique, low bacd and abs works. And I always do my core work LAST in my workout. I used to do warmups with ab work, not serious intensity, just to get the blood moving before my main pl movement for the session. Don't want to zap energy that needs to be used for a more important movement. It is difficult to put oblique training, ab training and direct low back in your workout without skimping on one of them. Careful planning and listening to your body helps in determining what is needed at what time. But as a coach, or non-competitor is it harder b/c you have to know your athlete's needs. And for the non competitor, it deosn't matter b/c they never have a set peak date to care about. Jake Gunter

Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:59 AM "But with training any movement the joint stabalizers will get stronger at the same time as the prime movers" Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the program design, the exercise selection and the sport. Weightlifters have weak low traps, and Serratus Anteriors. But they hold weight over their head all day and need to stabilize their scapula's. In theory these muscle should be strong...but they are often not. "just look at a person's knee ligaments before starting to squat, and three months later (again, the exception being ball-and-socket joints)." Ligaments limit range of motion but dont add anything to dynamic stabilization. "So, although it is necessary to get them as strong as possible, isolating them isn't necessairly necessary in all cases. " It is always needed in an athletic popluation.
Chad


Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:14 PM "I take it you got injured at Pitt by not doing enough direct stabilizer work. You don't mean calve raise, leg curl and such?" No, I was the S&C coach there. Worked with athletes that never had been trained in core work, or stabilization. Shot putters improved their throwing distance almost immediately as they couldnt tranfer power from the legs to the arms. I have used the exercises you reccomend in addition to the heavy doses of multi-joint work. For instance, x-country runners spent a lot of time doing reverse calf raises to strengthen the ant. tib. Result? less shin splints in season. Leg curs? Didnt use much cause 50 athletes and one machinge, but I did do an ass load of RDL's, single leg RDL's, goodmornings, MB kicks, Partner resisted leg curls, Russian leans ect.... "I know Stone advocates more multi-joint movements, and really no direct single joint stuff, like extensions, tri work, biceps. I have dropped my tri extension work in favor of more lockout work, which has worked. " I agree. But stone does do a some bicep work even in his oly lifters. " I used to do warmups with ab work" Thats my basic approach: dynamic ab exercise 3x15-25 dynamic back exercise 3x8-15 DYNAMIC EXERCISES ARE SUPPERSETTED. Stabiliziation exercise 2x4 20 second side bridges ....ect. "It is difficult to put oblique training, ab training and direct low back in your workout without skimping on one of them." Not really. My approach warms-up the core. Gets stabilizers used to contracting. Takes 5-6 minutes to do. Strength is the result of training heavy overhead.
Chad


Kim Baugher
Gold Member Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:39 PM Do y'all think that isolation of a joint is necessary in order to make the joint more stable? For example, let's say you hold a weight overhead and walk around with it. Wouldn't this help improve shoulder stability? Actually, now that I think about it, Chad Waterbury recommends an exercise like this where you hold 2 DB's overhead and walk in a figure 8. Seems like an interesting exercise.


LaxGuy
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:49 PM I personally do not think that isolation of a joint is necessary to get it to become more stable. Even in structural movements, all the soft tissue involved in the exercise will be strengthened (take my squatting and knee ligament example) appropirately. The exception I think, as I said before, is w/ ball and socket joints. Having so much laxity to begin with they need the extra work otherwise you are risking injury. Especially w/ the glenohumeral joint. Now, if you want maximum (not just adequate) stability/strength in a joint then I think it is necessary to isolate it.

smitty
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:49 PM Kim, we do that exercise, works well with 2 db's and also well with a plate.

Kim Baugher
Gold Member Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 1:34 PM Smitty, when I did single-leg RDL's they were with my off-foot off the ground. I just bent my leg, didn't try to hold it behind me or in front of me or anything. I imagine you could do Keystone DL's this way, too. I gave single-leg GM's a try... it works, but too much potential for disaster there.

Shawn Michael
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 2:51 PM I think doing peterson step ups for the VMO and external rotator work in isolation would have saved me from unnecessary sublaxations of the patella and a shoulder.....but I was trained by idiots!! One thing that I think is really important not mentioned is some rotational work.....I do heavy side bends follow by cable chops which I really feel once the oblique has been fried a bit.........the rest of the core work I think it well addressed by sandbag lifting and such.....I like to shoulder a big sand bag and walk a few laps or do some 1 hand farmers walks ala Bob Jodin


Thomas N. Thekan
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:04 PM If the stabilizers are composed of primarily slow twitch fibers wouldn't they respond to better to a different stimulus than the prime movers, if they are composed of primarily fast twitch fibers? In other words, we know that fast twitch fibers respond to high intensity loads and slow twitch respond better to low intensity loads. Wouldn't this indicate 2 different training protocols. One for the stabilizers and one for the prime movers????? In Bompa's book, "Complete Training for Young Champions" (?) He again states: "Stability before mobility." TNT

Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:25 PM Dumbell in L hand. Stand on R foot. Cross L hand over to R foot. Do an RDL! But let the L foot go into the air. This helps mimic a RDL better as the hips go back freely. Also trains proprioception in the ankles. Body will adapt fast to the balance issue, then switch to a dyna disc. When that is easy, I progressed to a 1-leg RDL with followed by a 1 arm db snatch. This exercise is perfect for shot put as it mimics the start position. MB kicks, guy lies on floor, feet together. Hands underneith the chin (FOR PROTECTION). Partner rolls the mb at a high rate of speed down the erector spinae -----> down the crack of ja ass, down the hamstrings, when the ball hits the calf, the athlete kicks hard throwing the ball back to you. CATCH IT or he takes one in the head. Very good exercise to compliment the russian lean (ie superset them). They really help RFD in sprinters. Chad

Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:29 PM Kim, Isolation is needed in sport for the KEY parts....ie shoulders in pitchers for example. I thing the walk may be good for prevention or pre-hab, but not for injury or pain. You need to relearn how to stimulate the muscles that are not contracting to stabilize. The only way to relearn is to isolate. Chad

 

[Screwball]

I've tried working my core first and I can get away with it if I'm working my upper body. No way in Hell I can hit my core first (maximal intensity) and then squat and deadlift heavy. IMHO the lower body compound movements are compromised by working the core muscle groups first.

I always like to hit some type of light core work before each and every workout but only to loosen up and get my heart rate up.

 

[coolcolj]

Well it's not maximal.

Overhead work is what I use for maximal core work.
It's more functional