Do you agree: Go with strength and bulk would come?

[LoneTree]

Problem:
So many people recommend so many different ways of working out.
There are so many variables: genes, body type, age.
Bulk is a lagging index, i.e. you only see results a few days AFTER you work out.

So I am going with a measurable index: If your strength is increasing, then what you are doing is working, and vice versa.

Do you agree?

 

[dabuffguy]

#1, do you have a question about aas? If not, this goes in the weight training forum.



To some extent, yes you will get bigger as you get stronger.

In fact, I seem to get bigger(lean mass) ONLY as I get stronger. If my weight is going up, so is my strength. It my strength isn't going up, my weight hovers.

 

[LoneTree]

#1, do you have a question about aas? If not, this goes in the weight training forum.



To some extent, yes you will get bigger as you get stronger.

In fact, I seem to get bigger(lean mass) ONLY as I get stronger. If my weight is going up, so is my strength. It my strength isn't going up, my weight hovers.

It is about AAS, because I am talking about 'when you are on'.
It may be different without AAS.

 

[halfcenturian]

I agree, however, you have to mix it up. Heavy weights work different muscle fibers then lighter weights.
I have found that in order to grow you need to do both. Heavy one week, light the next, or some combo along those lines.
Having said that... I definately become stronger doing heavy weights, and put on more mass.
The old saying that you need to lift big weights to get big muscles, is pretty much true.
BUT not all the time. Be sure you get in some 25, 20, 15 reps workouts too.

The Big O - OMEGA - Can best speak to this question.

.

 

[dabuffguy]

It is about AAS, because I am talking about 'when you are on'.
It may be different without AAS.

you didn't specify that, so I wasn't sure.

In the case of using aas, no it doesn't really mean anything.

You can take halo, your bench will go up 60 pounds, but you probably won't gain mor than 2 pounds in 4 weeks.

with anadrol, your bench would go up just as much or more, but gain 25 pounds in 4 weeks.

 

[smtimelevi]

Problem:
So many people recommend so many different ways of working out.
There are so many variables: genes, body type, age.
Bulk is a lagging index, i.e. you only see results a few days AFTER you work out.

So I am going with a measurable index: If your strength is increasing, then what you are doing is working, and vice versa.

Do you agree?

The way I see it, a significant strength gain happens before size starts increasing. Thats been my experience. But in contrast there are some pretty small powerlifters.

If you factor in steroids, the fact of the matter is the drug hasnt fully kicked yet.
In my experience using long estered compounds At the onset of the cycle I would notice a little strength then about week 3 BOOM! Size, strength, bloat the whole shabang

Im not sure of your situation but if you are making strength gains then the size will come. But the ammount of size and the way in wich it come will all depend on diet and what you are taking.

 

[Nelson Montana]

It depends on your type I and type II ratio. In general, the reverse is a better principle. Train for size and strength will follow.

 

[goku_kakarot77]

i do believe muscle adapt to stress, its very hard to find someone that weighs 50kgs bench 200kgs, by the time that 50kg dude is benching that much , he would have more mass, esp in chest,tri and delts, i use 6-8reps for fast twitch fiber muscles and 10-12 for slow twitch fiber muscles, and as long as numbers going up every week, i can see growth in those specific places, eg: when i use to db press 55lbs i had TINY shoulders, now i press 47.5kg each hand (104.5lbs) for 8 reps and my shoulders literally have exploded,when i used to dead lift 120kg for 7 reps i had small forearms /bis/traps/ and no thickness in back now i can dead 230kg for 8 reps (506lbs) and my forearms and bis and traps and back thickness have improved SOOO much, they stick out through my jumper, if u hit one body part to absolute muscle failure for one set its more than enough to trigger growth,the loads of all exercise must go up every week, even y 5lbs or i more rep etc, look at galaxy he works out 3x week (very similar to my routine) chest/delt/tri back/bis llegs/ , and he has ran quite a bit of gear and look at his physique, straight away u can tell he is strong , look at need size he pulls off big numbers too and looks at those muscle groups, he is a massive squatter bencher and dead lifter,just my words of wisdom,

peace

peace

 

[goku_kakarot77]

you didn't specify that, so I wasn't sure.

In the case of using aas, no it doesn't really mean anything.

You can take halo, your bench will go up 60 pounds, but you probably won't gain mor than 2 pounds in 4 weeks.

with anadrol, your bench would go up just as much or more, but gain 25 pounds in 4 weeks.

that 2 lbs from halo would be proper muscle, 2lbs of pure muscle ameks huge difference on body ,its liie putting 2lbs of chicken breasts all over ur body and too me thats alot of muscle if its not fat or water

 

[lookinfit75]

It depends on your type I and type II ratio. In general, the reverse is a better principle. Train for size and strength will follow.

I don't quite understand your response Nelson. What ratio are you talking about? Slow twitch to fast twitch?

 

[mr.nitro]

training for size and training for strenth are two different things. the 2 overlap a bit, so if you powerlift you will get size, but not as much if your training for mass.

 

[Big_BK]

It's all about genetics IMO. I work with a guy who is a monster, lifts heavy low reps all the time and drinks a 6 pack every night and get shitfaced on weekends and is huge. He's just a lucky bastard genetic wise.

 

[halfcenturian]

It's all about genetics IMO. I work with a guy who is a monster, lifts heavy low reps all the time and drinks a 6 pack every night and get shitfaced on weekends and is huge. He's just a lucky bastard genetic wise.

I know what you mean... I hate guys like that. I'm envious.

How do YOU train BBK? Do you mix it up? Go heavy and light?

Genetics aside, do you think strength training = bulk?

 

[Big_BK]

In my opinion yes, If you lift heavy and eat big you won't stay small. I don't know any powerlifters that are small. Even daveTSI on here is lean as hell and looks like a fucking bodybuilder but hes a powerlifter. I Like training with low reps but i always mix it up, one week i will do 3's or 5's then the next week i may do 10's. I usually do some exercises low reps high weight then other exercises slightly higher reps all on the same day then on the next day i have that workout i switch the ones i did high rep last week to low rep. With strongman you need to worry about conditioning as well as strength which is why i do high reps stuff as well.

 

[dabuffguy]

that 2 lbs from halo would be proper muscle, 2lbs of pure muscle ameks huge difference on body ,its liie putting 2lbs of chicken breasts all over ur body and too me thats alot of muscle if its not fat or water

No doubt.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I don't quite understand your response Nelson. What ratio are you talking about? Slow twitch to fast twitch?

The big white fiber (fast twitch) muscles respond to heavy weight training. This is why strength coaches and powerlifters swear by heavy training. The thing is, if you don't have an abundance of those muscle types, the heavy weight won;t do anything. This is when most strength coaches will dismiss you.

I, on the other hand, work with people who don;t have that advantage. I work with the ones who the so-called experts dismiss. If you have mostly slow twitch type II muscles you need to get them as big and shapely as possible. A classic example is Frank Zane. Not a big, bulky guy. he's a type II guy. Same with Serge Nubret. If they trained like powerfilters they'd just be skinny guys with injuries. Instead, they're gods. because they knew how to train for their bodytype.

For more info: http://www.elitefitness.com/reports/truth/

 

[RobertFontaine]

I kind of like the Bill Starr Volume/Recovery/Intensity approach that covers all the bases and avoids this argument entirely.

I prefer to focus on strength and a big diet as a newbie (starting strength prog) as it works.

I'm not what's going to work best as an intermediate/advanced trainee. I'm going to give the Texas Method or Bill Starr's 5x5 a shot once SS stalls and can't be restarted.

So yes I agree... go with strength (and eat) and bulk will come.
I'm not convinced that there are many homo sapiens whose fast twitch/slow twitch percentage vary so radicly that this is not mostly always true.

 

[lookinfit75]

The big white fiber (fast twitch) muscles respond to heavy weight training. This is why strength coaches and powerlifters swear by heavy training. The thing is, if you don't have an abundance of those muscle types, the heavy weight won;t do anything. This is when most strength coaches will dismiss you.

I, on the other hand, work with people who don;t have that advantage. I work with the ones who the so-called experts dismiss. If you have mostly slow twitch type II muscles you need to get them as big and shapely as possible. A classic example is Frank Zane. Not a big, bulky guy. he's a type II guy. Same with Serge Nubret. If they trained like powerfilters they'd just be skinny guys with injuries. Instead, they're gods. because they knew how to train for their bodytype.

For more info: http://www.elitefitness.com/reports/truth/

Serge was small (relatively speaking of course) like Zane? I swear that guy had one of the most amazing physiques ever. Up there with Sergio and Arnie in my very humble opinion. So what kind of training did those guys do to attain such amazing physiques? Lot's of reps, low weights? Lot's of gear and the previously mentioned type of routine?

 

[lookinfit75]

By the way Nelson, I own both your books and I think they are great. That's where I learned about DHEA but as a metabolism enhancer.

 

[the_alcatraz]

Well, according to my experiences with weight lifting, as I got bigger, I got a lot stronger....so I'd have to say it's the other way around...I know people that may look very skinny but lift weights like champs....you don't have to be big to be strong, but generally when you get bigger, you can lift more weights because of the increased body weights, and your muscles get stronger because of the added resistance.

P.S. Why is this in AAS forums? (Should be in Weightlifting forums)

 

[Nelson Montana]

I kind of like the Bill Starr Volume/Recovery/Intensity approach that covers all the bases and avoids this argument entirely.

I prefer to focus on strength and a big diet as a newbie (starting strength prog) as it works.

I'm not what's going to work best as an intermediate/advanced trainee. I'm going to give the Texas Method or Bill Starr's 5x5 a shot once SS stalls and can't be restarted.

So yes I agree... go with strength (and eat) and bulk will come.
I'm not convinced that there are many homo sapiens whose fast twitch/slow twitch percentage vary so radicly that this is not mostly always true.

First of all, EVERYTHING works for a newbie.

And secondly, you're wrong if you think the ratio of type I and type II deosn't vary greatly among individuals or make much difference.

Serge and Zane didn't use much gear at all. Very high volume training. GEAR DOES NOT MAKE UP FOR GENETIC DEFICIENCIES. Whatever you can achieve naturally will simply be pushed another step with gear but the limitations will still exist.

 

[markmark]

I agree, however, you have to mix it up. Heavy weights work different muscle fibers then lighter weights.
I have found that in order to grow you need to do both. Heavy one week, light the next, or some combo along those lines.
Having said that... I definately become stronger doing heavy weights, and put on more mass.
The old saying that you need to lift big weights to get big muscles, is pretty much true.
BUT not all the time. Be sure you get in some 25, 20, 15 reps workouts too.

The Big O - OMEGA - Can best speak to this question.

.

half, you are right on.^^^ I started mixing it up and feel and look a lot better.. I no longer do bulking cycles, don't like the big round muscle-fat look, like all power-lifters. I prefer the big, hard, firm look, like bodybuilders.. I don't care if anybody can lift more weight as long as I look better built with or without a shirt..

 

[dabuffguy]

half, you are right on.^^^ I started mixing it up and feel and look a lot better.. I no longer do bulking cycles, don't like the big round muscle-fat look, like all power-lifters. I prefer the big, hard, firm look, like bodybuilders.. I don't care if anybody can lift more weight as long as I look better built with or without a shirt..

I agree. Powerlifters are way strong dudes, but their body fat is usually 20%+ and they look like a big fat dude is all. A few powerlifters look good, but the guys you see on the stronman competitions are mostly way fat guys with lots of muscle underneath.

 

[SouthernLord]

I agree. Powerlifters are way strong dudes, but their body fat is usually 20%+ and they look like a big fat dude is all. A few powerlifters look good, but the guys you see on the stronman competitions are mostly way fat guys with lots of muscle underneath.

Have you ever been to a powerlifting competition? How about trained with a group of powerlifters? I guarantee you would kill to have the build of most of the 242s and under. A 275 lifter at 20% bf could diet for 10-12 weeks and absolutely destroy the light heavys in a BB competition. These guys have a certain density and muscle quality that can't be built with fluff training. No matter how much gear you are on.

As for strongman, the guys you see on TV are the super heavys. These are the "Worlds Strongest". The heavys and middleweight are all jacked beyond belief and I guarantee most sport visible abs. Ask Big BK, he is a Strongman and he don't look like a strong "fat guy" to me.

 

[SouthernLord]

As far as strength before bulk or whatever this thread is about.....The fastest way to gain as much LBM as possible is to get as strong as possible while eating at a caloric surplus. High rep fluff isolation training does not cut it. Progressively adding weight to the big basics while progressively stuffing your face is the answer. I am sure there are some gurus that will disagree with this but it is a fact.

 

[LoneTree]

half, you are right on.^^^ I started mixing it up and feel and look a lot better.. I no longer do bulking cycles, don't like the big round muscle-fat look, like all power-lifters. I prefer the big, hard, firm look, like bodybuilders.. I don't care if anybody can lift more weight as long as I look better built with or without a shirt..

I did not suggest that you HAVE TO gain strength to bulk. Some people do get bulk without gaining strength, at least in the short run.

What I said was that IF you gain strength, then ultimately (in the long run) you will get bulk. I think that would apply to most people.

 

[goku_kakarot77]

muscles adapt to stress imo, high volume training tends to strentch the muscle fascia more,

 

[LoneTree]

muscles adapt to stress imo, high volume training tends to strentch the muscle fascia more,

Muscles adapt to one weight and one type of exercise.
That is why you have to keep on increasing the weight ('progressive overload') and keep on changing the type of exercises you do.

'Pump' that results from hard workout stretches the facia.

 

[[CinnamonBuns]]

id say it depends on how advanced you are
ANY beginner who gets stronger gets bigger
perhaps not AS much for an advanced trainer (but it should still happen)
but sorry i cant comment on anyhting aas related.

 

[ceo]

I think for the most part you can see a trend in here. Southern Lord nailed it by the way.

 

[the_alcatraz]

I agree. Powerlifters are way strong dudes, but their body fat is usually 20%+ and they look like a big fat dude is all. A few powerlifters look good, but the guys you see on the stronman competitions are mostly way fat guys with lots of muscle underneath.

Have you seen Mariuz Pudzianowski?

 

[the_alcatraz]

As far as strength before bulk or whatever this thread is about.....The fastest way to gain as much LBM as possible is to get as strong as possible while eating at a caloric surplus. High rep fluff isolation training does not cut it. Progressively adding weight to the big basics while progressively stuffing your face is the answer. I am sure there are some gurus that will disagree with this but it is a fact.

This is very correct for the most part.

LBM = lean body mass?

Eating at a caloric surplus will get you big and strong, but will not necessarily increase "lean" body mass.

 

[FunFun]

Problem:

Bulk is a lagging index, i.e. you only see results a few days AFTER you work out.

That's incredible. You can actually see a bulk change in the mirror a few days later?

I would have thought a scale along with pinch calipers would be the first to detect a change, not a mirror image.

 

[OMEGA]

If Strength = Size , we would all have been huge.

IT is NOT about Stength NOR does it lead to size,
it is all about nailing the muscle with Finesse and technique if your a True Bodybuilder.

 

[SouthernLord]

This is very correct for the most part.

LBM = lean body mass?

Eating at a caloric surplus will get you big and strong, but will not necessarily increase "lean" body mass.

But eating a caloric surplus, doing cardio strategically, and taking fat loss aids/metabolic enhancers you can add significant lean mass while staying at a reasonable BF%. I have gained close to 30 pounds in the last year and my BF% has stayed the same if not decreased a little. I have ran a couple PH/DS cycles but no real injectable AAS cycles. I am far from your beastly stature but I am getting there slowly and surely lol. Check out my signature. It sums up my thoughts on this.

 

[ceo]

But eating a caloric surplus, doing cardio strategically, and taking fat loss aids/metabolic enhancers you can add significant lean mass while staying at a reasonable BF%. I have gained close to 30 pounds in the last year and my BF% has stayed the same if not decreased a little. I have ran a couple PH/DS cycles but no real injectable AAS cycles. I am far from your beastly stature but I am getting there slowly and surely lol. Check out my signature. It sums up my thoughts on this.

once again, SL is correct.

 

[the_alcatraz]

But eating a caloric surplus, doing cardio strategically, and taking fat loss aids/metabolic enhancers you can add significant lean mass while staying at a reasonable BF%. I have gained close to 30 pounds in the last year and my BF% has stayed the same if not decreased a little. I have ran a couple PH/DS cycles but no real injectable AAS cycles. I am far from your beastly stature but I am getting there slowly and surely lol. Check out my signature. It sums up my thoughts on this.

The term "calorc surplus" is quite relative to body weight and lifestyle, if you are doing enough cardio and taking fat burners and pro-hormones, enough to keep our BF% low, then it's not a caloric surplus anymore....unless all the calories are coming from protein, which I doubt you'd be getting that...

I like your signature btw

 

[OMEGA]

Let me know When Weight = Size lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eK1p0sHqoM
__________________

 

[the_alcatraz]

Let me know When Weight = Size lol:

YouTube - 160 lbs x 4 - dumbbell bench press
__________________

Repost!!!

 

[stevius]

The muscles have to grow to with sufficient weight; muscles do not necessarily grow with repetition or speed but will if resistance is involved. A balance of weight, sufficient work and speed is the perfect partnership, but even then that's absolutely useless without generating tension by making it awkward for the body to move. The sole purpose of a powerlifting backsquat is to move as much weight as possible, so it makes sense not to squat right down but to employ more back and butt than leg... to go with strength for strength sake may involve some bulk but not where you want it.

Another poster here rightly suggested that a bigger muscle has good potential for strength so it makes sense to use moderate weights and repetitive movements to enhance strength. It is beneficial to work on strength but not to rely on strength workouts alone, and to sensibly reduce intensity in favour of volume.

I think the chest area reponds well to exercises where the arms are pushing down IE do dips and decline bench. Flat bench does not seem to stress the chest so much as the shoulders and triceps.