Debate: Cardio versus Fat burners

[disturbed80]

I'm just curious, what are everyones thoughts on this? While I'm certainly no saint when it comes to putting exogenous hormones into my body, the plight of one of my buds has made me decide that fat burners are simply not worth it. He has been taking 50mg of ephedrine twice daily for nearly 2 years straight, with a couple of clenbuterol cycles in between....And he just recently had a checkup with a doctor that showed high BP (140-150/90) and borderline high blood sugar....prior to his bouts with stimulants, he had LOW blood pressure and his blood sugar was fine. He was in good shape, probably 15% body fat, but used fat burners to keep himself lean....
His doc also says that he has seen many teenagers with enlarged hearts due to abusing fat burners, particularly among females.

Like I mentioned above, I'm no saint and have certainly used my share of stimulants. But I have always had increased blood pressure while on (upwards of 140/90 while on, and 120/70 while off), have increased blood sugar (waking blood sugar of around 90 when on, usually 70ish when off), and just feel plain crappy. For the past few months, I have been doing AM cardio daily and I feel so much better doing this as opposed to taking pills everyday to stay lean. I dont have the moodswings from when i'm coming down from a dose of ephedrine. I dont have the racing heartbeat. I dont have the shakes like I used to...I just feel good and feel healthy. Here's some food for thought:


Pros of aerobic exercise:

-Improved insulin sensitivity for up to 18 hours. Effect is most dramatic with aerobic exercises such as running or stairclimbing

-Increased uptake of oxygen and glycogen to muscle cells

-Makes the heart more efficient at pumping oxygen throughout the body

-In time, can reduce blood pressure

-Less likely to cause muscle wasting, as seen with stimulants.

-Lowers cortisol production, which reduces waistline fat storage and muscle wasting.


Cons of Stimulants / Fat burners

-Increases blood pressure, sometimes dramatically

-Like any stimulants, prolonged high BP causes heart enlargement

-Increased blood glucose, decreased insulin sensitivity

-Stimulants are more likely to cause muscle wasting, due to the synergestic effect of high BP, high cortisol production, and decreased insulin sensitivity.

...And because of this, i'm done with ephedrine,T3, and clenbuterol. Like I mentioned a second ago, these stimulants did give me results but gave me more muscle loss than aerobic exercise and made me feel crappy.


What are your thoughts on this?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

-Increased blood glucose, decreased insulin sensitivity

-Stimulants are more likely to cause muscle wasting, due to the synergestic effect of high BP, high cortisol production, and decreased insulin sensitivity.

actually most stimulants lower blood glucose and many fat burners have ingredients (like EGCG) that improve insulin sensitivity

Stimulants are quite often anti-proteolytic (t3 which is not a stimulant is proteolytic, and catabolic).


IMHO the best option is both, Stims (and other fatburners/metabolic enhancers) as an addition to cardio

 

[disturbed80]

actually most stimulants lower blood glucose and many fat burners have ingredients (like EGCG) that improve insulin sensitivity

Stimulants are quite often anti-proteolytic (t3 which is not a stimulant is proteolytic, and catabolic).


IMHO the best option is both, Stims (and other fatburners/metabolic enhancers) as an addition to cardio

Macrophage, I am not referring to your products at all, this is mainly aimed at hardcore pharmaceutical stimulants (clenbuterol, ephedrine, T3.)

But I do know as a fact that Clenbuterol and ephedrine BOTH raise blood sugar, blood pressure, increase cortisol production, and decrease insulin sensitivity....I have seen numerous studies over at NiH showing this, and it has been my own experience as well (I have a glucometer). A few studies are below..

Now as far as your products...I am a big fan of your products, and this is'nt meant as a slander to any of your fat burners. This is aimed more at pharmaceutical products.

Enhanced stimulant and metabolic effects of combined ephedrine and caffeine.
-RESULTS: Ephedrine plus caffeine increased systolic blood pressure (peak difference, 11.7 +/- 9.4 mm Hg; compared with placebo, P =.0005) and heart rate (peak difference, 5.9 +/- 8.8 beats/min; compared with placebo, P =.001) and raised fasting glucose, insulin, free fatty acid, and lactate concentrations

[The role of beta 2-adrenoceptor on the pathogenesis of insulin resistance in essential hypertension]
-mabuterol induced a considerable decrease in GDR in EH patients but not in control subjects. There was no significant difference in the decrease of GDR between normo- and hyperadrenergic EH. The decrease in GDR tended to correlate with the mean blood pressure at rest in EH but not in normal subjects. Plasma glucose and serum insulin in EH patients were increased more than in normal subjects.

These are just a couple of studies, there have been numerous studies of the effect of ephedrine, T3, and clenbuterol on BP, insulin sensitivity, etc. They all share similar side effects, mainly increased blood sugar and insulin, raised BP, etc. I also know that when getting prescription triiodothyrionine (t3) or ephedrine in the usa (back when you able to get 50mg tabs prescribed), their prescribing papers both warn of increased insulin requirements when taking these meds.

 

[fergie]

ya tell me about it..... I know have an irregular heartbeat that I think is from the old hydroxys or clen. Come to think about it it could have been alot of other things but I'm sure one of those 2 was the culprit.

 

[needtogetaas]

ya tell me about it..... I know have an irregular heartbeat that I think is from the old hydroxys or clen. Come to think about it it could have been alot of other things but I'm sure one of those 2 was the culprit.

ya they gave me an inlarged dick.

 

[krishna]

Cardio first, and then fat burners for any additional support you may need.

 

[alexmichael]

I have always been decent about doing cardio regularly. I also have always had a horrible diet. I literally have eaten fast food an average of once a day for the past 20 + years. Im 39 now and only in the past 5 years have I ever taken any fat burners or energy drinks or pills. I have always been sub 10% bf. The only thing I have ever done right in my life was cardio on a regular basis. It is either genetics (I'm only one in my family that is fit) or the cardio that has kept me lean. Fat burners, amphetamines and stuff like that may help, but they also lead to somewhat of a vicious cycle with energy and weight. If you get older like me, I have found that the best thing in the world to stay lean and feel good is gh and regular cardio. Just my 2 cents on my personal experience.

 

[timtim]

it's all diet and cardio. some fat burners i guess could be effective but from my experience they did very little. especially clenbuterol. it's crap in my book, complete garbage.

 

[Goldprospector]

I have not been able to do AM cardio for the last 17 years due to work schedule. But Neither have I ever stuck to a regular regime of cardio upon first waking. But I have recently started going to college (job is sending me) and I have a fairly fixed schedule. So I am hoping to do AM cardio on a regular basis to see if I feel any different.
As far as fat burners, I have been using ECA stacks for a whole lot of years without a break. I have not become accustomed to them and I still get a kick from them. My last check up (off cycle) everything was fine and dandy. But I really would like to be able to stop them to see what it is like to be stimulant free. Maybe I will be able to with a new AM cardio routine.

 

[fergie]

ya they gave me an inlarged dick.

so your up to 3" now?

 

[RvN]

so your up to 3" now?

"inlarged"?, wouldnt that be a pussy?

 

[bobbie]

Bit of both but more Cardio & diet than fat burners. NOT fat burners for 2 years straight no way thats mad IMO

 

[chefbone]

There is no arguement here guys. Cardio is the way.

 

[shape]

i think taking the stimulants give you more of a psychlogical effect than anything else--you take that pill and think your gonna burn more fat and have more energy so it drives you further---dont take anything and you dread gettting on that treadmill--just my opinion and defintely the case for me

 

[disturbed80]

Bit of both but more Cardio & diet than fat burners. NOT fat burners for 2 years straight no way thats mad IMO

You'd be surprised by the number of people that use stimulants everyday, no matter what.

Kinda reminds me of a guy who was taking T3, and when asked if he was worried about having thyroid problems when going off....he said, "why would I go off".

 

[Ulter]

They are the horse and carriage of fat loss. Cardio burns off fat, and fat burners just accererate the process. You shouldn't use one without the other if you're in a hurry to lose fat.

 

[fergie]

does cardio really burn fat? Or could you just lower your calories and loose fat that way?

 

[Ulter]

calories used vs calories burned = fat loss

It's that simple. Fat burners and cardio cause you to use more calories. If you run a calorie deficit you'll lose fat with or without cardio. Like I said, use fat burners and cardio if you're in a hurry.

 

[wayneboard1]

so your up to 3" now?

LMAO....you must spread k around before giving it to fergie again.

 

[Prizz]

But I do know as a fact that Clenbuterol and ephedrine BOTH raise blood sugar, blood pressure, increase cortisol production, and decrease insulin sensitivity....I have seen numerous studies over at NiH showing this, and it has been my own experience as well (I have a glucometer). A few studies are below..




ECA and Clen are like any other drug.... If you don't abuse them, you will be fine.... You say that you know for a fact that ECA and Clen increase cortisol production? Dude, that is just wrong..... Clen has been proven to lower cortisol dramaticaly..... For guys with a metabolism like I do, I need to do heavy cardio with fat burners.... Just cycle on and off, and you'll be fine...

rizz

 

[disturbed80]

does cardio really burn fat? Or could you just lower your calories and loose fat that way?

Aerobic exercise speeds the metabolism and makes the body use your calories more efficiently. So while you can lose weight with diet alone,
the weight loss will be slow....cardio added to your clean diet will amplify
your results dramatically, and make you healthier in the process.

 

[slat1]

Here is the thing. You don't need either. Just eat clean!
I can get to 7.5% bf easy by eating clean. If I do cardio its crazy.
Its all diet!!!

 

[Ulter]

Here is the thing. You don't need either. Just eat clean!
I can get to 7.5% bf easy by eating clean. If I do cardio its crazy.
Its all diet!!!

That's great advice for YOU but the rest of the world may not have your metabolism. So many men would have to sacrifice a lot of LBM to achieve that.

 

[disturbed80]

But I do know as a fact that Clenbuterol and ephedrine BOTH raise blood sugar, blood pressure, increase cortisol production, and decrease insulin sensitivity....I have seen numerous studies over at NiH showing this, and it has been my own experience as well (I have a glucometer). A few studies are below..




ECA and Clen are like any other drug.... If you don't abuse them, you will be fine.... You say that you know for a fact that ECA and Clen increase cortisol production? Dude, that is just wrong..... Clen has been proven to lower cortisol dramaticaly..... For guys with a metabolism like I do, I need to do heavy cardio with fat burners.... Just cycle on and off, and you'll be fine...

rizz

LOL...Clenbuterol lowers cortisol dramatically?

You really dont know what you're talking about. ANY stimulant that increases the adrenal hormones raise cortisol. Got it? Increased adrenal hormones = more cortisol.

Now i'm not going to do the work for you, but if you go to the National Institute of Health website, and type "clenbuterol cortisol" in their search engine, you will see studies showing increased cortisol production from clenbuterol intake.

 

[Prizz]

Ok, maybe I said it wrong.... It might not decrease cortisol production, but it stops it from wasting muscles.... As posted here recently:

In a healthy bodybuilder using a strong sympathomimetic you basically have the best of all worlds: plenty of free-fatty acids getting released for oxidation in muscle, plenty of insulin-resistant muscle to feast on them, and pretty much all consumed calories getting spared for muscle retention and protein synthesis. Granted, there’s very little good research on human skeletal muscle in the presence of clenbuterol (particularly when it comes to athletes), but reasoned inference and extrapolation certainly paints a pretty convincing picture that clenbuterol is significantly anti-catabolic.

For starters, human research with ephedrine and caffeine has demonstrated that indiscriminate, weaker beta-adrenergic agonism significantly improves protein deposition and preserves lean body mass during periods of caloric restriction (14). Also interesting was the researchers’ discovery that the ephedrine and caffeine mixture wasn’t attenuating skeletal muscular breakdown, but was in fact accelerating protein synthesis. This was proved clinically by 3-methylhistidine examination, an index for skeletal muscle breakdown.

In the sympathomimetic group, an increase in nitrogen balance was demonstrated independent of 3-methylhistidine, which means the ephedrine was actually helping to synthesize lean tissue at a faster rate, and thereby counteracting the increase in diet-induced catabolism (15). See? I wasn’t lying when I said clenbuterol could be anabolic; you just can’t take a high enough dose to get an anabolic degree of protein synthesis augmentation without ending up in the ER long before you could get your shaky ass anywhere near a squat rack.


Like I said, I was wrong saying it decreased Cortisol production, but my point is that it is proven to be ANABOLIC.... Not catabolic....

rizz

 

[Ulter]

Clen has no affect on cortisol in humans one way or the other.

Influence of clenbuterol, a beta-adrenergic agonist, on desipramine induced growth hormone, prolactin and cortisol stimulation.

Laakmann G, Munz T, Hinz A, Voderholzer U.

Psychiatric Hospital, University of Munich, Germany.

We report herein the effects of the beta-adrenergic agonist clenbuterol on desipramine (DMI)-induced growth hormone (GH), prolactin (PRL) and cortisol secretion in healthy male subjects. In the first study, nine subjects were treated with either clenbuterol (0.04 mg, p.o.) or placebo. In the second study, 12 subjects received either DMI (50 mg, i.v.) alone or in combination with clenbuterol (0.04 mg, p.o.) given 60 min prior to DMI administration. clenbuterol alone had no influence on GH, PRL, or cortisol concentrations, compared to placebo. DMI alone caused GH stimulation (mean maximum = 15.7 +/- 3.4 ng/ml), which was significantly lower after combined administration of DMI and clenbuterol (mean maximum = 7.7 +/- 1.6 ng/ml) (p less than or equal to 0.01). DMI-induced PRL and cortisol stimulation was not influenced by clenbuterol pretreatment. These results indicate the inhibiting influence of noradrenergic beta-receptors on GH stimulation.

 

[disturbed80]

I'm not so sure about that. The only study that exists in regards to ephedrine and clenbuterol as anabolics is done in horses, and clenbuterol was shown to be an anabolic, and naturally anti catabolic. I don't have the scientific explanation on hand (but have seen it somewhere, i'll look it up), horses and humans have differences in physiology that makess clenbuterol anabolic in horses, but not so in humans.

 

[disturbed80]

Clen has no affect on cortisol in humans one way or the other.

Influence of clenbuterol, a beta-adrenergic agonist, on desipramine induced growth hormone, prolactin and cortisol stimulation.

Laakmann G, Munz T, Hinz A, Voderholzer U.

Psychiatric Hospital, University of Munich, Germany.

We report herein the effects of the beta-adrenergic agonist clenbuterol on desipramine (DMI)-induced growth hormone (GH), prolactin (PRL) and cortisol secretion in healthy male subjects. In the first study, nine subjects were treated with either clenbuterol (0.04 mg, p.o.) or placebo. In the second study, 12 subjects received either DMI (50 mg, i.v.) alone or in combination with clenbuterol (0.04 mg, p.o.) given 60 min prior to DMI administration. clenbuterol alone had no influence on GH, PRL, or cortisol concentrations, compared to placebo. DMI alone caused GH stimulation (mean maximum = 15.7 +/- 3.4 ng/ml), which was significantly lower after combined administration of DMI and clenbuterol (mean maximum = 7.7 +/- 1.6 ng/ml) (p less than or equal to 0.01). DMI-induced PRL and cortisol stimulation was not influenced by clenbuterol pretreatment. These results indicate the inhibiting influence of noradrenergic beta-receptors on GH stimulation.

Of course ulter, you ignored the other 5 studies that showed increased cortisol from clenbuterol intake, while posting this one only. Read that study again.....This study shows the effect of a single one time dose of clenbuterol at 40mcg, and that is in combination with DMI. I highly doubt ANYONE would have pronounced effects from ONE SINGLE, Low dose of a stimulant. Also, the purpose of this study isn't even to see the effect of clenbuterol on cortisol production.

Hell, I could take a single line of meth and have my hormones measured 60 minutes later, and I doubt cortisol would be signifigantly increased.

 

[disturbed80]

Well, we'll just have to guess at this because most of the studies of long term clenbuterol intake at nih is on animals. All of the studies i've seen of long term clenbuterol intake (in animals) shows increased cortisol. Ignoring the fact that horses and rats are similar to humans in adrenal function, the fact remains that exogenous adrenal hormones and stimulants that increase adrenal hormones increase cortisol.

Anyway, I don't really like arguing about this....but back to the subject at hand.

I don't believe clenbuterol is healthy in the slightest. I know in my own case, it increased my BP sky high, made me shake, made my heart race, and made my doctor do a double take when he did a bloodtest on me. (I had cortisol 3x normal, and high blood sugar in this bloodtest). Do you feel otherwise? Do you honestly believe a drug that can increase BP 20-30 points can be good for you compared to aerobic exercise? Just curious.

 

[Prizz]

I guess I don't really understand the meaning of your post.... The title is Cardio vs Fat burners, and I'm sure that 90% of the people do cardio while on fat burners.... You then go on to give all these reasons that fat burners are bad for you, but like I said before, if you don't abuse them, they do the job and remain safe.... Sure they increase BP, and might affect your sugar levels, but what does that mean? You aren't gonna ever use them again? So many prescription meds, and OTC meds do the same, but are used every day.... The heart affects you list may or may not be the contributed to Fat burners, so that doesn't sway me either.... I mean, if you are lucky enough to lose enough fat with just doing cardio, then God bless you man..... I gotta cut my calories down to like 1500per day, do 1hr of cardio per day, and take ECA to get lean.... And I know there are many out there like me... It's just not an option to cut them out to achieve what I wanna achieve.... One last note, I'm not trying to Flame or start a fight with you... I consider all posts on here a discussion between fellow athletes that we can all learn from.... So I hope I'm not getting you stirred up over this, but i really just dont' understand where youre coming from..... later

rizz

 

[Ulter]

Of course ulter, you ignored the other 5 studies that showed increased cortisol from clenbuterol intake, while posting this one only. Read that study again.....This study shows the effect of a single one time dose of clenbuterol at 40mcg, and that is in combination with DMI. I highly doubt ANYONE would have pronounced effects from ONE SINGLE, Low dose of a stimulant. Also, the purpose of this study isn't even to see the effect of clenbuterol on cortisol production.

Hell, I could take a single line of meth and have my hormones measured 60 minutes later, and I doubt cortisol would be signifigantly increased.

I'll need you to point out the other five human studies so I can look at them. The studies I have seen used so much clen that the response was likely due to stress from the clen and not the clen itself. 40mcg is not low to many people and if an increase in cortisol was in fact a reponse to the clen then it would occur in one dose as easily as several. It's more likely that it's the stress of high doses over a long period that causes the rise in cortisol.

 

[kbrkbr]

Interesting thread.

 

[OMEGA]

beside cardio for fat loss there is no ignoring its benifits on the Circulatory System, and Heart. That alone makes it worth it.

plus I truly believe that cardio increases V02 max which is very important for say, leg days, and back days

 

[disturbed80]

beside cardio for fat loss there is no ignoring its benifits on the Circulatory System, and Heart. That alone makes it worth it.

plus I truly believe that cardio increases V02 max which is very important for say, leg days, and back days

My thoughts exactly bro, I'm sure everyone has seen the huge bodybuilders that can't walk 100 feet without sweating and wheezing. I'd personally like insurance by making sure my cardiovascular system stays in check, and have the added endurance so I can run and lift weights without being overly exhausted and out of breath constantly.

Prizz: I hear ya bro I got a little wound up....my apologies. I'll leave the arguments out of this thread from this point