Clomid-- The Big Lie

[Nelson Montana]

That's the title of a chapter from BOTTOM LINE BODYBUILDING. I wrote it in 2001 when everybody was Clomid happy. Today, a new generation of bodybuilders are realizing they've been lied to.

So I ask you...where's the proof? Where's the proff that Clomid does anything at all for restoring testosterone? It's all based on sketchy evidence, scant research studies (often misinterpreted) heresay, rumor, misunderstanding and the prepetuation of erroneous information.

This is something a few former "experts" on this board never quite comprehended. (This is how misinfomation spreads). Sure, there are some studies that Clomid therepy improved HPTA levels after being severly supressed -- AFTER TWO MONTHS OF TREATMENT. Hell, take nothing and HPTA levels will be restored after 2 months.

And even those lucky(?) few who have good results with Clomid -- where's the evidence that arimidex doesn't restore testosterone just as well? Again, the reigning experts would scream that you need a SERM not and Anti -e post cycle. Why? Anyone? Because somebody said so?

I can't tell you how many times these nitwits would tell people to use up 100 mgs for months on end only to have the person respond by saying his condition wasn't improved -- only to be told to do MORE CLOMID! I can't help but wonder how many people were messed up by these "good bros."

In a straight up comparison, Clomid vs A-dex...Clomid loses every time.

Clomid and its nasty cousin Nolvadex, decreases LH, removes "good estrogen" has a possible rebound effect, lowers IGF-1, lowers FSH, lowers sperm count, lowers semen volume, may damage vision, causes letargy and depression and may even increase estrogen.

A-dex cause non of those side effects and also supresses SHBG.

A_dex along with natural supps -- Calcium D Glucarate, Chrysin, (Found in POST CYCLE) also CytogenX and Dermacrine the the only sane thing to use PC.

I know, there will be those who said Clomid worked for them. But I've seen a lot of cases where it hasn't. And the results were disasterous. Yet, never once, did I see anyone use A-dex and the right supps and have a problem. Never.

CLOMID SUCKS. Let it die.

 

[xrsist]

ill tell you what after my next cycle ill use adex and natural supps for PCT and if i crash or feel shit in any way (as i dont on clomid) you can supply my cycles worth of gear again...... interested??

 

[5x10]

what about hcg?
i plan on running hcg and adex for pct

 

[jmead]

i crashed pretty hard on clomid last cycle, it was my first real PCT.. i wasnt impressed.. im open for new things i guess..

 

[Mrpumped]

HCG, Nolva, Clomid and an AI works perfect along with a Testosterone Amplifyer(supp). Not to make this an argument but do you have studies you can publish to prove this? The other "experts" you mentioned have a background in science so I would be inclined to believe a scientific explanation over what personal feelings would say. I personally recovered with the medications I mentioned.

 

[chilledandy]

HCG should be used prior to PCT not as PCT as it suppresses natural testosterone in a similar way to steroids in that once you come off it, your body will produce a lower amount due to the rebound effect.

 

[r1]

Nelson,

A couple of points...

1. It has been demonstrated that SERMs (Clomid, Nolvadex) strongly raise LH (the body's signal to create more T). This has been demonstrated countless times in the HRT environment since response to a SERM is a good indicator of what type of hypogonadism you have (primary, secondary). Here is my blood work from about a year ago when I attempted to get off of HRT. I used Nolvadex.

Notice a few things:
A. After stopping HRT to begin Nolva, my levels all crashed into the basement. This is a clear indicator of why you need PCT. You get shut down hard on a cycle.
B. The Nolvadex took a long ass time to start working
C. When it did finally start working, it pushed LH over the top of the range.
D. When I got off of Nolvadex, my T levels fell back down...I got back on HRT.

2. Consider this PCT protocol written by Dr John Crisler aka SWALE. Some of the points are debatable, but the bottom line is that SWALE is a very knowledgable guy that has worked with many bros trying to recover from AAS use and has been successfully able to treat them. He also pioneered an HRT regimen that has helped many bros get their lives back. The reasons for not using an AI are stated at the end.

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two
days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to
maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the
horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three
counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within
physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some
feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are
then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating
steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is
temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular
atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking
larger doses). In fact, I wouldn't mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL
THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy,
burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better
each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to
appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at
the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous
testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure
a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around
100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels
drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week.
That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over
estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if
the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now
prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from
the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to
switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in
using BOTH SERM's at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the
SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of
AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering
the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the
cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery,
as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in
recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a
"bridge".
Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does
not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't "fool" the
body-it is smarter than you are.

I like arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while
taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post
cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the
risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already
compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into
the ground-and we don't want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the
real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they
are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

I do agree that Clomid is some nasty shit in general and for that reason, I chose Nolvadex. I know bros who have become suicidal on Clomid. F that!

R1

 

[needtogetaas]

HCG should be used prior to PCT not as PCT as it suppresses natural testosterone in a similar way to steroids in that once you come off it, your body will produce a lower amount due to the rebound effect.

good post.

 

[instant.muscle]

ive not used any pct before and it worked out fine, hope my clomid and nolva on my next cycle works good

 

[5x10]

HCG should be used prior to PCT not as PCT as it suppresses natural testosterone in a similar way to steroids in that once you come off it, your body will produce a lower amount due to the rebound effect.

good article posted here about hcg throughout the cycle

but what puspose would it serve to get the nuts going again only to have them shut down time and time again while on cycle(very high test levels)?

 

[xrsist]

Nelson,

A couple of points...

1. It has been demonstrated that SERMs (Clomid, Nolvadex) strongly raise LH (the body's signal to create more T). This has been demonstrated countless times in the HRT environment since response to a SERM is a good indicator of what type of hypogonadism you have (primary, secondary). Here is my blood work from about a year ago when I attempted to get off of HRT. I used Nolvadex.

Notice a few things:
A. After stopping HRT to begin Nolva, my levels all crashed into the basement. This is a clear indicator of why you need PCT. You get shut down hard on a cycle.
B. The Nolvadex took a long ass time to start working
C. When it did finally start working, it pushed LH over the top of the range.
D. When I got off of Nolvadex, my T levels fell back down...I got back on HRT.

2. Consider this PCT protocol written by Dr John Crisler aka SWALE. Some of the points are debatable, but the bottom line is that SWALE is a very knowledgable guy that has worked with many bros trying to recover from AAS use and has been successfully able to treat them. He also pioneered an HRT regimen that has helped many bros get their lives back. The reasons for not using an AI are stated at the end.


I do agree that Clomid is some nasty shit in general and for that reason, I chose Nolvadex. I know bros who have become suicidal on Clomid. F that!

R1

good read bro

 

[krishna]

Clomid works awesome; I don't care what any of you say.

 

[njmuscleguy]

I don't like clomid... hated nolva... neither of them helped much with recovery. The sides were definitely not justified. Been trying alternative methods with some success.... the jury's still out.

 

[boston789]

HCG and clomid has worked for me. Along with derma, chrysin, nettle root and muaria puima (spelling).

 

[ProtienFiend]

Nelson,

A couple of points...

1. It has been demonstrated that SERMs (Clomid, Nolvadex) strongly raise LH (the body's signal to create more T). This has been demonstrated countless times in the HRT environment since response to a SERM is a good indicator of what type of hypogonadism you have (primary, secondary). Here is my blood work from about a year ago when I attempted to get off of HRT. I used Nolvadex.

Notice a few things:
A. After stopping HRT to begin Nolva, my levels all crashed into the basement. This is a clear indicator of why you need PCT. You get shut down hard on a cycle.
B. The Nolvadex took a long ass time to start working
C. When it did finally start working, it pushed LH over the top of the range.
D. When I got off of Nolvadex, my T levels fell back down...I got back on HRT.

2. Consider this PCT protocol written by Dr John Crisler aka SWALE. Some of the points are debatable, but the bottom line is that SWALE is a very knowledgable guy that has worked with many bros trying to recover from AAS use and has been successfully able to treat them. He also pioneered an HRT regimen that has helped many bros get their lives back. The reasons for not using an AI are stated at the end.


I do agree that Clomid is some nasty shit in general and for that reason, I chose Nolvadex. I know bros who have become suicidal on Clomid. F that!

R1

Subscribed. Nelson?

 

[Primordial Performance]

good article posted here about hcg throughout the cycle

but what puspose would it serve to get the nuts going again only to have them shut down time and time again while on cycle(very high test levels)?

hCG on cycle is used to keep the nuts active. The testes will respond to the hCG no mater how high of AAS dosages you are on. If your testes hibernate for too long their ability to produce testosterone will be permanently diminished – they must stay active.

-Pp

 

[xrsist]

clomid works, the only side i suffer is a bit of deperession towards the end of clomid use. nolva sent me insane.

 

[Nelson Montana]

HCG, Nolva, Clomid and an AI works perfect along with a Testosterone Amplifyer(supp). Not to make this an argument but do you have studies you can publish to prove this? The other "experts" you mentioned have a background in science so I would be inclined to believe a scientific explanation over what personal feelings would say. I personally recovered with the medications I mentioned.

Who are these people you're referring to? And exactly what is their scientific banckground?

And since when are those with a scientific background automatically correct? Pat Arnold is one of the few legitmate scientists in the field and he's been wrong more often than he's been right and some of his blunders have been HUGE.

 

[boston789]

hCG on cycle is used to keep the nuts active. The testes will respond to the hCG no mater how high of AAS dosages you are on. If your testes hibernate for too long their ability to produce testosterone will be permanently diminished – they must stay active.

-Pp

So how much HCG do you run usually on cycle? How often?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson,

A couple of points...

1. It has been demonstrated that SERMs (Clomid, Nolvadex) strongly raise LH (the body's signal to create more T). This has been demonstrated countless times in the HRT environment since response to a SERM is a good indicator of what type of hypogonadism you have (primary, secondary). Here is my blood work from about a year ago when I attempted to get off of HRT. I used Nolvadex.

Notice a few things:
A. After stopping HRT to begin Nolva, my levels all crashed into the basement. This is a clear indicator of why you need PCT. You get shut down hard on a cycle.
B. The Nolvadex took a long ass time to start working
C. When it did finally start working, it pushed LH over the top of the range.
D. When I got off of Nolvadex, my T levels fell back down...I got back on HRT.

2. Consider this PCT protocol written by Dr John Crisler aka SWALE. Some of the points are debatable, but the bottom line is that SWALE is a very knowledgable guy that has worked with many bros trying to recover from AAS use and has been successfully able to treat them. He also pioneered an HRT regimen that has helped many bros get their lives back. The reasons for not using an AI are stated at the end.


I do agree that Clomid is some nasty shit in general and for that reason, I chose Nolvadex. I know bros who have become suicidal on Clomid. F that!

R1

There are quite a few things wrong with these conclusions.

First ...you said that Swale's reasoning that an anti e post cycle is a bad idea because it may supresstoo much estrogen is, frankly, somewhat asinine. It's all dose dependant.

Also, you said you do well with Nolva than with Clomid yet they're almost identical -- Nolva being more site specific and only blocking estrogen, not removing it making it a better choice against gyno but worse for PCT.

You state that your levels crashed after taking HCG therefore you need PCT. I never said otherwise.

I seriously question guys who "worked with pros " to recover. Most pros stay on. Hey, 100 years ago doctors prescribed leeches. Sometimes the patients got better in spite of it.

You said Nolva took a long ass time to work. So how can you be sure you just didn't recover? It may have taken LESS time WITHOUT the nolva.

Your biggest spike in total testosterone happended when you LOWERED your dosage of Nolva! Hmmm

Curiously, your estrogen didn;t change much with the use of Nolva either. Hmmm again.

You also said that once treatment stopped, T wasn't any higher, if fact it fell down. That tells me the Nolva did nothing to restore your natural levels. You had to go on HRT. Maybe I'm missing something...WHERE"S THE RECOVERY?!??!

It sounds as if you proved my point, but choose to see it a different way.

 

[Mrpumped]

Who are these people you're referring to? And exactly what is their scientific banckground?

And since when are those with a scientific background automatically correct? Pat Arnold is one of the few legitmate scientists in the field and he's been wrong more often than he's been right and some of his blunders have been HUGE.

You answer first since I asked first.

 

[jagerbombme]

I just finished pct, clomid, proviron, hcg.

all these chems were started 3 days after last shot of test prop. no sides really to speak of except as stated, some depression towards end of clomid. i had no energy lulls though and libido is slightly impaired. i kept on lifting like normal and running like normal. i started creatine this last week and still lifting about what i was on cycle. bloats gone and feel good. this was best pct i had. i did hcg only pcts and it shuts you down harder. i also tried the nothing approach as talked about up top and my test was 70 at 6.5 weeks off. so doing nothing isn't an option, don't kid yourself.

 

[todoveritas]

While NM brings up some very good points, I am not convinced at all that Adex is superior to Clomid. There are other goals to PCT besides restoration of testosterone levels. Normalization of the Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Thyroid axis for one. Restoration of a normal feedback mechanism takes more than lowering estrogen levels. FSH and LH are important for male reproduction and these need to be brought up as well. Despite Clomid's admitted drawbacks, and lack of proper double-blind studies to substantiate, Clomid and SERMs have been shown time and again to be superior in this regard, as Riderful pointed out.

 

[r1]

Nelson,

The main point of my post was to dispute your claim that SERMS do not raise lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - . You stated that very clearly in the original post:

Clomid and its nasty cousin Nolvadex, decreases LH

SERMS most definitely raise LH and their effect on LH is a first-pass test for primary hypogonadism. Additionally, I offered my labs as first-hand experience of what SERMS do LH specifically.

With regards to SWALE, I never said that he has worked with pros. In fact, it would surprise me if he has worked with ANY pros. He has worked with many bros who have had trouble "restarting" their systems after long-term anabolic androgenic steroids use. He's a doctor with a solid background in anabolic androgenic steroids and HRT...I don't think you can just toss aside his findings.

You raise an interesting point in that people recover eventually...regardless of PCT - post cycle therapy - - post cycle therapy - . Maybe I recovered despite use of Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - and not necessarily due to Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - itself. I do think the Nolva did it's job though due to the fact that while on it, my T levels rise above what is considered "normal" for me (around 200ng/dl).

Also...what about the bros who have done a cycle without doing PCT? Many of them lose their gains. It's a common first-timer mistake and if you ask people who have this mistake and then run subsequent cycles with PCT using Nolva/Clomid, I think it is clear that they did not suffer from the same outcome.

R1

 

[r1]

I can see that the new keyword expansion is working...not so sure if I like it!

R1

 

[todoveritas]

I know. It kind of bugs.

 

[medrep]

ok this new feature of spelling out everything is getting annoying

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson,

The main point of my post was to dispute your claim that SERMS do not raise lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - . You stated that very clearly in the original post:

Clomid and its nasty cousin Nolvadex, decreases LH

.............................................................................

WHEN I WAS DOING RESEARCH FOR MY BOOK I FOUND EVIDENCE THAT IT LOWERD LH IS SOME CASES. I'LL TRY AND TRACK THAT DOWN BUT IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU WERE USING NOLVA, NOT CLOMID. I'M NOT SURE IF THERE'S A DIFFERENCE WITH THE LH. THANK YOU FOR POINTING THAT OUT.

...........................................................................


With regards to SWALE, I never said that he has worked with pros.

.......................................

BROS? SORRY -- READ IT AS "PROS". : )

.......................................................................

In fact, it would surprise me if he has worked with ANY pros. He has worked with many bros who have had trouble "restarting" their systems after long-term anabolic androgenic steroids use. He's a doctor with a solid background in anabolic androgenic steroids and HRT...I don't think you can just toss aside his findings.
..................................................

I'M NOT GOING TO DISPARAGE WAHT HE'S DONE BUT I WILL SAY THIS -- I'VE HAD A LOT OF GUYS COME TO ME WHO'VE UNDERGONE HORMONE THERAPY AT SOME OF THESE CLINICS, UNDER THE CARE OF DOCTORS, AND THEY'VE BEEN MESSED UP BAD.

.......................................

You raise an interesting point in that people recover eventually...regardless of PCT - post cycle therapy - - post cycle therapy - - post cycle therapy - . Maybe I recovered despite use of Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - and not necessarily due to Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - itself. I do think the Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - did it's job though due to the fact that while on it, my T levels rise above what is considered "normal" for me (around 200ng/dl).

....................................................

BUT IF IT'S NOT STAYING THERE. WHAT'S THE POINT? THAT'S NOT RECOVERY. YOU MIGHT AS WELL GO ON TESTOSTERONE.

.....................................................................

Also...what about the bros who have done a cycle without doing PCT? Many of them lose their gains.

................................................................


FIRST OF ALL I'M NOT ADVOCATING NO PCT. I JUST THINK THAT ADEX AND NATTY SUPPS ARE BETTER AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF GUYS WHO'VE BEEN DOING THIS AND THE RESULTS ARE EXCELLENT. AND BY THE WAY, I CAN THINK OF LOTS OF GUYS WHO STOPPED CYCLES WITH NO PCT AND SYFFERED NO PROBLEMS -- ALL THE GUYS FROM THE 60'S BEFORE THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS SERMS. NOBODY HAD GYNO!


........................................................
It's a common first-timer mistake

.....................................................

FIRST TIMERS MAKE LOTS OF MISTAKES, THIS BEING THE LEAST OF THEM.


...............................................................................
and if you ask people who have this mistake and then run subsequent cycles with PCT using Nolva/Clomid, I think it is clear that they did not suffer from the same outcome.

..................................................................

NOT TRUE. NOT TRUE AT ALL. I KNOW OF DOZENS OF CASES WHERE PEOPLE THOUGH ALL THEY NEEDED WAS CLOMID AND THEY WERE COOL. THEY CRASHED HARD!!!







YEAH, ALL THAT SPELLING OUT IS ANNOYING.



R1

...

 

[Pikaberdot]

Clomid works awesome; I don't care what any of you say.

Agreed.

Not to mention, it "decreases sperm volume"?!

That's a bunch of bullshit.

EDIT: From what I've noticed of users negative experiences with clomid, is when they Frontload. If you stay at 50mg/day and don't go above that, there tends to be no negative side-effects that a user would notice.

Personally, I plan on sticking with drugs that are time-tested to work and were developed by pharmaceutical companies. Not some OTC supplement, with nothing more than anecdotal evidence and studies performed on rats, NOT people. But it's your body, do what you will with it.

 

[Triple J]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ractplus&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=17070201

 

[jagerbombme]

Agreed.

Not to mention, it "decreases sperm volume"?!

That's a bunch of bullshit.

EDIT: From what I've noticed of users negative experiences with clomid, is when they Frontload. If you stay at 50mg/day and don't go above that, there tends to be no negative side-effects that a user would notice.

Personally, I plan on sticking with drugs that are time-tested to work and were developed by pharmaceutical companies. Not some OTC supplement, with nothing more than anecdotal evidence and studies performed on rats, NOT people. But it's your body, do what you will with it.

i've ran 3 cycles, 1 ended with hcg pct, big mistake, 1 ended without anything, big mistake, and 1 ended with hcg, clomid, proviron. cannot complain much except for a little depression around day 30 on clomid, i never used more than 50mg ed though.

 

[Twoguns]

if clomid doesn't work , then why do my balls get fucking huge?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Couple of things.

First of all, please read those studies posted because they present some pretty weak arguments. Remember, Clomid was never meant to be used by men and they don;t even know exactly why it works as afertility drug for women. When it comes to men with sypressed HPTA through steroid use there is VERY VERY little evidence.

I undrestand some people respond to it, but no one hads ever responded to it better than adex and calcium d glucarate. So why use it?

And here's a little thing about the "big loads." I did an article with Brock Strasser years ago and mentioned the amount of ejaculate from Clomid. I was referring to the LOSS of ejaculate. But he thought I meant an increase and said "Yeah, it does." And then he ran with that theme and came up with this story about porn stars using it which I think he just pulled out of his ass. Ever since then, I've heard about how Clomid increases loads. Even outside of the bodybuilding community. Rumor travels fast. Never underestimated the power of placebo. People swore Saw Palmetto made them horny. Saw Palmetto is an ANTI androgen. But the mind can play tricks on you if you believe strong enough.

 

[tin2]

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80. Links
Effects of aromatase inhibition in elderly men with low or borderline-low serum testosterone levels.Leder BZ, Rohrer JL, Rubin SD, Gallo J, Longcope C.
Endocrine Unit, Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02114, USA.

As men age, serum testosterone levels decrease, a factor that may contribute to some aspects of age-related physiological deterioration. Although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in frankly hypogonadal men, its use in elderly men with borderline hypogonadism is controversial. Furthermore, current testosterone replacement methods have important limitations. We investigated the ability of the orally administered aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole, to increase endogenous testosterone production in 37 elderly men (aged 62-74 yr) with screening serum testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl. Subjects were randomized in a double-blind fashion to the following 12-wk oral regimens: group 1: anastrozole 1 mg daily (n = 12); group 2: anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly (n = 11); and group 3: placebo daily (n = 14). Hormone levels, quality of life (MOS Short-Form Health Survey), sexual function (International Index of Erectile Function), benign prostate hyperplasia severity (American Urological Association Symptom Index Score), prostate-specific antigen, and measures of safety were compared among groups. Mean +/- SD bioavailable testosterone increased from 99 +/- 31 to 207 +/- 65 ng/dl in group 1 and from 115 +/- 37 to 178 +/- 55 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.054 group 1 vs. group 2). Total testosterone levels increased from 343 +/- 61 to 572 +/- 139 ng/dl in group 1 and from 397 +/- 106 to 520 +/- 91 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.012 group 1 vs. group 2). Serum estradiol levels decreased from 26 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 6 pg/ml in group 1 and from 27 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 5 pg/ml in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Serum LH levels increased from 5.1 +/- 4.8 to 7.9 +/- 6.5 U/liter and from 4.1 +/- 1.6 to 7.2 +/- 2.8 U/liter in groups 1 and 2, respectively (P = 0.007 group 1 vs. placebo, P = 0.003 group 2 vs. placebo, and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Scores for hematocrit, MOS Short-Form Health Survey, International Index of Erectile Function, and American Urological Association Symptom Index Score did not change. Serum prostate-specific antigen levels increased in group 2 only (1.7 +/- 1.0 to 2.2 +/- 1.5 ng/ml, P = 0.031, compared with placebo). These data demonstrate that aromatase inhibition increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the youthful normal range in older men with mild hypogonadism. Serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range. The physiological consequences of these changes remain to be determined.


I think i got this one rite.. here's a study showing arimidex at different doses increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the normal range, while serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range.

this is maybe out of context, but shows an anti-e does something for ur levels .

 

[tin2]

I dont know about a placebo, but I get huge loads from clomid..

 

[Primordial Performance]

So how much HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - do you run usually on cycle? How often?

200iu hCG EOD seems to be the best dose.

-Pp

 

[Nelson Montana]

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80. Links
Effects of aromatase inhibition in elderly men with low or borderline-low serum testosterone levels.Leder BZ, Rohrer JL, Rubin SD, Gallo J, Longcope C.
Endocrine Unit, Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02114, USA.

anabolic steroids men age, serum testosterone levels decrease, a factor that may contribute to some aspects of age-related physiological deterioration. Although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in frankly hypogonadal men, its use in elderly men with borderline hypogonadism is controversial. Furthermore, current testosterone replacement methods have important limitations. We investigated the ability of the orally administered aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole, to increase endogenous testosterone production in 37 elderly men (aged 62-74 yr) with screening serum testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl. Subjects were randomized in a double-blind fashion to the following 12-wk oral regimens: group 1: anastrozole 1 mg daily (n = 12); group 2: anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly (n = 11); and group 3: placebo daily (n = 14). Hormone levels, quality of life (MOS Short-Form Health Survey), sexual function (International Index of Erectile Function), benign prostate hyperplasia severity (American Urological Association Symptom Index Score), prostate-specific antigen, and measures of safety were compared among groups. Mean +/- SD bioavailable testosterone increased from 99 +/- 31 to 207 +/- 65 ng/dl in group 1 and from 115 +/- 37 to 178 +/- 55 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.054 group 1 vs. group 2). Total testosterone levels increased from 343 +/- 61 to 572 +/- 139 ng/dl in group 1 and from 397 +/- 106 to 520 +/- 91 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.012 group 1 vs. group 2). Serum estradiol levels decreased from 26 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 6 pg/ml in group 1 and from 27 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 5 pg/ml in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Serum lh - leutenizing hormone - levels increased from 5.1 +/- 4.8 to 7.9 +/- 6.5 U/liter and from 4.1 +/- 1.6 to 7.2 +/- 2.8 U/liter in groups 1 and 2, respectively (P = 0.007 group 1 vs. placebo, P = 0.003 group 2 vs. placebo, and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Scores for hematocrit, MOS Short-Form Health Survey, International Index of Erectile Function, and American Urological Association Symptom Index Score did not change. Serum prostate-specific antigen levels increased in group 2 only (1.7 +/- 1.0 to 2.2 +/- 1.5 ng/ml, P = 0.031, compared with placebo). These data demonstrate that aromatase inhibition increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the youthful normal range in older men with mild hypogonadism. Serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range. The physiological consequences of these changes remain to be determined.


I think i got this one rite.. here's a study showing arimidex at different doses increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the normal range, while serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range.

this is maybe out of context, but shows an anti-e does something for ur levels .

Thanks tin. That was with A-dex and the results were done on 37 men as compared to the tests with Clomid which were done on "a subject." Similar results. So again I ask. Why use Clomid over adex?

 

[ironclaw]

interesting points here, makes you wonder, I've got good results from clomid and nolva, but, if i can get the same or close to the same results from what nelson recommended, then I'd like to give it a try my next pct...

 

[needtogetaas]

if clomid doesn't work , then why do my balls get fucking huge?

elephantiasis.... just a thought.

 

[used2juice]

I had a buddy who was trying to conceive with his wife a few months after cycle. It took him 3 months of clomid therapy to start producing sperm again. So it DOES have it's place I think. BUt personally I'm a fan of just plain nolva.

 

[boston789]

200iu HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - EOD seems to be the best dose.

-Pp

I read in another post you said 500ius ew. Not that far off but one stick a week is alot easier than 3-4 sticks a week.

 

[Primordial Performance]

I read in another post you said 500ius ew. Not that far off but one stick a week is alot easier than 3-4 sticks a week.

Yeah.. the once a week protocol is easier, but I think the 200iu EOD is just 'as' effective but with less estrogen creation.

-Pp

 

[GymIntensity]

HAHAHAHA.


that guy makes me laugh

Honestly, makes me feel good about not being an uneducated moron

 

[jagerbombme]

clomid does work, there is no doubt about it. it does work. now, i'm not saying adex doesn't, and as the other guy was saying, if it does, i'd like to see some people try it and i might try it myself. but clomid does work. and i do shoot bigger loads with it. i shot the biggest loads i've ever shot in my life in the past month.

 

[ProtienFiend]

And here's a little thing about the "big loads." I did an article with Brock Strasser years ago and mentioned the amount of ejaculate from Clomid. I was referring to the LOSS of ejaculate. But he thought I meant an increase and said "Yeah, it does." And then he ran with that theme and came up with this story about porn stars using it which I think he just pulled out of his ass. Ever since then, I've heard about how Clomid increases loads. Even outside of the bodybuilding community. Rumor travels fast. Never underestimated the power of placebo. People swore Saw Palmetto made them horny. Saw Palmetto is an ANTI androgen. But the mind can play tricks on you if you believe strong enough.

They probably had bigger loads because they jacked off less due to a bad PCT

 

[ProtienFiend]

They probably had bigger loads because they jacked off less due to a bad PCT - post cycle therapy -

Sorry I should probably offer some advice.

I like to do moderate/low dose cycles (<=500mg/wk, <=10 wks) so take what I say in context. IMO, an anti-e with some supps (including creatine) is the way to go. Its mostly a mental thing for me. Just don't let yourself fall off the horse, thats where you get sides, lethargy, depression, etc...

In my experience, nolvadex has been crap for me. Id rather have the low test sides than what that gave me (depression, BP, etc...). Mostly, you just have to find what works for you. I am not going to use clomid due to the possible permanent side effects, so I choose to use a more natural approach, including long periods of time off if necessary.

-PF

 

[Nelson Montana]

Sorry I should probably offer some advice.

I like to do moderate/low dose cycles (<=500mg/wk, <=10 wks) so take what I say in context. IMO, an anti-e with some supps (including creatine) is the way to go. Its mostly a mental thing for me. Just don't let yourself fall off the horse, thats where you get sides, lethargy, depression, etc...

In my experience, nolvadex has been crap for me. Id rather have the low test sides than what that gave me (depression, BP, etc...). Mostly, you just have to find what works for you. I am not going to use clomid due to the possible permanent side effects, so I choose to use a more natural approach, including long periods of time off if necessary.

-PF

Best answer so far.

 

[Harleymarleybone]

Who are these people you're referring to? And exactly what is their scientific banckground?

And since when are those with a scientific background automatically correct? Pat Arnold is one of the few legitmate scientists in the field and he's been wrong more often than he's been right and some of his blunders have been HUGE.

So you are saying that scientists in the field are generally not to be trusted any more than non-scientists? That seems odd.

 

[ceo]

ok this new feature of spelling out everything is getting annoying

Agreed. At first I was thinking, "what the hell is everyone doing spelling all this shit out?" But I know it's the "system." I hate it. Turn it off please!

 

[Nelson Montana]

So you are saying that scientists in the field are generally not to be trusted any more than non-scientists? That seems odd.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

 

[krishna]

Thanks tin. That was with A-dex and the results were done on 37 men as compared to the tests with Clomid which were done on "a subject." Similar results. So again I ask. Why use Clomid over Arimidex - anastrozole - ?

If they have similar results, why are you bashing clomid and saying to use adex? Why not use clomid over adex?

 

[nicolus]

If they have similar results, why are you bashing clomid and saying to use Arimidex - anastrozole - ? Why not use clomid over Arimidex - anastrozole - ?

Curious.. what dosage of adex are you advocating?

 

[eliteforce]

not necessary to use more than 1mg/day, maybe even .5mg/day

 

[Nelson Montana]

If they have similar results, why are you bashing clomid and saying to use Arimidex - anastrozole - ? Why not use clomid over Arimidex - anastrozole - ?

Because clomid is bad in so many other ways. Dex doesn't have the sides as Clo.

And actually, the dex results were better. And if we go with those who've use low dose dex with POST CYCLE and UNLEASHED the results are better yet. I think that's pretty good reason not to use a drug that can cause so many side effects.

 

[njmuscleguy]

I have an easy way out in deciding against nolva and clomid because nolvadex did absolutely nothing for me, and it KILLED my libido... clomid worked a little better (not 100%) but all the horrific sides. I decided that it's almost better to just ride it out without PCT than to use something with clomid, bear all those stupid sides, and only *slightly* improve.

I've always hoped there was a more natural approach to recovery. I've tried hundreds of supplements in the past, for whatever reason, and alot of them were bogus. But the best PCT to date for me has been using IGF, CEE, Sustain, and an energy booster like NO-xplode, Amp02, or Red Blast). This is my current PCT. These seem to cover all bases. Initial bloodwork showed partial recovery, but it was too soon to tell. I'll be getting additional bloodwork next month. All I know is that I have not crashed one bit, and no horrible sides! Big plus in my book.

 

[funstuff]

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed. RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients. CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.


How can you say clomid is a lie when it elicits results like these? Clomid has been shown to do exactly what the average bro needs post cycle; lowered estrogen levels and increased testosterone. Why would you want to take a product backed only be anecdotal evidence, in vitro and non-human in vivo studies over one that has been proven time again to work effectively in most people? Also notice the sentence about the side effects.

 

[tin2]

Yes, there are tons of studys that clomid works, it has worked for me also. But for the side effect part I guess that verys, cause the sides hit some ppl hard, me for one of them. I think what Nelsons trying to do here is to find an alternative to the terrible clomid , which may work but has bad sides. I dont think there has been many tests using clomid after AAS use, which may have an effect on the sides because of the higher estrogen, etc levels post cycle.. I am all ears when it comes to an alternative that works..

 

[krishna]

Because clomid is bad in so many other ways. Dex doesn't have the sides as Clo.

And actually, the dex results were better. And if we go with those who've use low dose dex with POST CYCLE and UNLEASHED the results are better yet. I think that's pretty good reason not to use a drug that can cause so many side effects.

I don't get any unwanted sides from clomid; only good ones.

 

[needtogetaas]

Yes, there are tons of studys that clomid works, it has worked for me also. But for the side effect part I guess that verys, cause the sides hit some ppl hard, me for one of them. I think what Nelsons trying to do here is to find an alternative to the terrible clomid , which may work but has bad sides. I dont think there has been many tests using clomid after anabolic androgenic steroids use, which may have an effect on the sides because of the higher estrogen, etc levels post cycle.. I am all ears when it comes to an alternative that works..

dermacrin sustain

 

[Papa Lion]

a-dex is too potent for pct and will further suppress your HPTA

That's the title of a chapter from BOTTOM LINE BODYBUILDING. I wrote it in 2001 when everybody was Clomid happy. Today, a new generation of bodybuilders are realizing they've been lied to.

So I ask you...where's the proof? Where's the proff that Clomid does anything at all for restoring testosterone? It's all based on sketchy evidence, scant research studies (often misinterpreted) heresay, rumor, misunderstanding and the prepetuation of erroneous information.

This is something a few former "experts" on this board never quite comprehended. (This is how misinfomation spreads). Sure, there are some studies that Clomid therepy improved hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - levels after being severly supressed -- AFTER TWO MONTHS OF TREATMENT. Hell, take nothing and HPTA levels will be restored after 2 months.

And even those lucky(?) few who have good results with Clomid -- where's the evidence that arimidex doesn't restore testosterone just as well? Again, the reigning experts would scream that you need a selective estrogen receptor modulator not and Anti -e post cycle. Why? Anyone? Because somebody said so?

I can't tell you how many times these nitwits would tell people to use up 100 mgs for months on end only to have the person respond by saying his condition wasn't improved -- only to be told to do MORE CLOMID! I can't help but wonder how many people were messed up by these "good bros."

In a straight up comparison, Clomid vs A-dex...Clomid loses every time.

Clomid and its nasty cousin Nolvadex, decreases lh - leutenizing hormone - , removes "good estrogen" has a possible rebound effect, lowers IGF-1, lowers FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - , lowers sperm count, lowers semen volume, may damage vision, causes letargy and depression and may even increase estrogen.

A-dex cause non of those side effects and also supresses sex hormone binding globulin .

A_dex along with natural supps -- Calcium D Glucarate, Chrysin, (Found in POST CYCLE) also CytogenX and Dermacrine the the only sane thing to use PC.

I know, there will be those who said Clomid worked for them. But I've seen a lot of cases where it hasn't. And the results were disasterous. Yet, never once, did I see anyone use A-dex and the right supps and have a problem. Never.

CLOMID SUCKS. Let it die.

 

[Nelson Montana]

a-dex is too potent for PCT - post cycle therapy - - post cycle therapy - and will further suppress your hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis -

Absolutely not true at 1/2 eod or every 3 days. It will help with recovery. With "POST CYCLE" and UNLEASHED you can use as little as 1/4mg every 3 days. No way is that "too potent."

 

[funstuff]

Absolutely not true at 1/2 eod or every 3 days. It will help with recovery. With "POSY CYCLE" and UNLEASHED you can use as little as 1/4mg every 3 days. No way is that "too potent."

References? Bloodwork?

 

[tin2]

References? Bloodwork?

I put a study up on the previous page where ppl used 1mg/wk and 1mg/day for 12 weeks and they where not suppressed .

gotta be open minded about things.. Clomid -clomiphene citrate - !d does work for some and probably most but the sides get very bad.. Arimi.dex is shown to raise T without lowering E to bad levels ..

Does anyone know why these sides happen with clomid, maybe if we knew how to suppress the sides with something along with it then we could work with clomid better.. Isn't Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - .dex a very similar selective estrogen receptor modulator to clomid, yet it doesnt have the emotion or depression sides.. is that because it blocks estrogen or certian other things.. What causes these sides is probably where ppl should start looking..

 

[ProtienFiend]

I put a study up on the previous page where ppl used 1mg/wk and 1mg/day for 12 weeks and they where not suppressed .

gotta be open minded about things.. Clomid -clomiphene citrate - !d does work for some and probably most but the sides get very bad.. Arimi.dex is shown to raise T without lowering E to bad levels ..

Does anyone know why these sides happen with clomid, maybe if we knew how to suppress the sides with something along with it then we could work with clomid better.. Isn't Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - .dex a very similar selective estrogen receptor modulator to clomid, yet it doesnt have the emotion or depression sides.. is that because it blocks estrogen or certian other things.. What causes these sides is probably where ppl should start looking..

The clomid sides are likely just how the body processes the drug. Its part of the mechanism for whatever reason.

As far as dex being too strong, one might want to choose aromasin, as it is also a suicidal inhibitor and likely, wont dry you up as much (estrogen wise).

 

[tin2]

The clomid sides are likely just how the body processes the drug. Its part of the mechanism for whatever reason.

As far as dex being too strong, one might want to choose aromasin, as it is also a suicidal inhibitor and likely, wont dry you up as much (estrogen wise).

yeah understandable.. but is that the way the body processes a selective estrogen receptor modulator drug.? because you dont get the sides from Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - .. and I've always wondered why.. maybe if u could block the certian part/receptor that causes these sides with something else..

Q. Do you still get or as bad of sides if taking nolvadex and clomid at the same time..?

Q. What if someone was to take an anti-e along with clomid, would that reduces sides..?

Q.Why does clomid effect some ppl and not others? is it hormone levels? diff type of anabolic androgenic steroids use? DNA..?

I mean when using anabolic androgenic steroids u can take an anti-e to stop T from converting to E, and you can take Prozac to make you happy because another drug is depressing you, or take cialis or viagra to help with ED because of another drug.... My point is why cant there be something takin to reduce clomid sides during PCT - post cycle therapy - - post cycle therapy - .. that way u could up the dose and recover faster, there has been studys done where a man had takin large doses of clomid for 2 months after being on AAS for over 10 years and after blood work showed having above natural levels . Ill try and find it ..

SIDES > RECOVERY = CLOMID

 

[r1]

I am not sure about the scientific accuracy of below, but this was taken from SWALE's primer on TRT.

If a patient has “nipple issues”, even while estrogen is within normal range, I add a selective estrogen receptor modulator, emergently. I prefer N.olvadex over C.lomid, and E.vista is probably best of all for antagonizing estrogen (although much more expensive). C.lomid often induces untoward visual effects (i.e. “tracers”), and can cause emotional lability by virtue of its estrogen agonistic effects at the more peripheral (emotion) brain sites. I do like my patients to keep some N.olvadex on hand, should they experience nipple swelling or sensitivity, so they may begin 40mg per day until the symptoms abate, and then taper to 20 mg QD for a few days, then 10mg for a few more, then finally 5mg QD to taper off.

Assuming the above is true, it certainly sheds some light on why Clomid effects emotion in a way that Nolvadex seems not to.

Note that this is only a piece of the whole article. Like a cycle, when Estrogen related problems surface during TRT, standard practice is to use a SERM (Clomi.d/N.olvadex) to address the immediate problem (gyno, bloat, etc) by de-activating the existing estrogen and if necessary, an AI (Arimidex) is brought on board to keep it from reoccurring.

R1

 

[tin2]

interesting .. hmmm.. theres still gotta be more to it though... thx for that post ..

 

[jagerbombme]

This has been a pretty good post and discussion without the bashing bullshit. I like it.