Clomid-- The Big Lie

[jagerbombme]

Agreed.

Not to mention, it "decreases sperm volume"?!

That's a bunch of bullshit.

EDIT: From what I've noticed of users negative experiences with clomid, is when they Frontload. If you stay at 50mg/day and don't go above that, there tends to be no negative side-effects that a user would notice.

Personally, I plan on sticking with drugs that are time-tested to work and were developed by pharmaceutical companies. Not some OTC supplement, with nothing more than anecdotal evidence and studies performed on rats, NOT people. But it's your body, do what you will with it.

i've ran 3 cycles, 1 ended with hcg pct, big mistake, 1 ended without anything, big mistake, and 1 ended with hcg, clomid, proviron. cannot complain much except for a little depression around day 30 on clomid, i never used more than 50mg ed though.

 

[Twoguns]

if clomid doesn't work , then why do my balls get fucking huge?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Couple of things.

First of all, please read those studies posted because they present some pretty weak arguments. Remember, Clomid was never meant to be used by men and they don;t even know exactly why it works as afertility drug for women. When it comes to men with sypressed HPTA through steroid use there is VERY VERY little evidence.

I undrestand some people respond to it, but no one hads ever responded to it better than adex and calcium d glucarate. So why use it?

And here's a little thing about the "big loads." I did an article with Brock Strasser years ago and mentioned the amount of ejaculate from Clomid. I was referring to the LOSS of ejaculate. But he thought I meant an increase and said "Yeah, it does." And then he ran with that theme and came up with this story about porn stars using it which I think he just pulled out of his ass. Ever since then, I've heard about how Clomid increases loads. Even outside of the bodybuilding community. Rumor travels fast. Never underestimated the power of placebo. People swore Saw Palmetto made them horny. Saw Palmetto is an ANTI androgen. But the mind can play tricks on you if you believe strong enough.

 

[tin2]

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80. Links
Effects of aromatase inhibition in elderly men with low or borderline-low serum testosterone levels.Leder BZ, Rohrer JL, Rubin SD, Gallo J, Longcope C.
Endocrine Unit, Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02114, USA.

As men age, serum testosterone levels decrease, a factor that may contribute to some aspects of age-related physiological deterioration. Although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in frankly hypogonadal men, its use in elderly men with borderline hypogonadism is controversial. Furthermore, current testosterone replacement methods have important limitations. We investigated the ability of the orally administered aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole, to increase endogenous testosterone production in 37 elderly men (aged 62-74 yr) with screening serum testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl. Subjects were randomized in a double-blind fashion to the following 12-wk oral regimens: group 1: anastrozole 1 mg daily (n = 12); group 2: anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly (n = 11); and group 3: placebo daily (n = 14). Hormone levels, quality of life (MOS Short-Form Health Survey), sexual function (International Index of Erectile Function), benign prostate hyperplasia severity (American Urological Association Symptom Index Score), prostate-specific antigen, and measures of safety were compared among groups. Mean +/- SD bioavailable testosterone increased from 99 +/- 31 to 207 +/- 65 ng/dl in group 1 and from 115 +/- 37 to 178 +/- 55 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.054 group 1 vs. group 2). Total testosterone levels increased from 343 +/- 61 to 572 +/- 139 ng/dl in group 1 and from 397 +/- 106 to 520 +/- 91 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.012 group 1 vs. group 2). Serum estradiol levels decreased from 26 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 6 pg/ml in group 1 and from 27 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 5 pg/ml in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Serum LH levels increased from 5.1 +/- 4.8 to 7.9 +/- 6.5 U/liter and from 4.1 +/- 1.6 to 7.2 +/- 2.8 U/liter in groups 1 and 2, respectively (P = 0.007 group 1 vs. placebo, P = 0.003 group 2 vs. placebo, and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Scores for hematocrit, MOS Short-Form Health Survey, International Index of Erectile Function, and American Urological Association Symptom Index Score did not change. Serum prostate-specific antigen levels increased in group 2 only (1.7 +/- 1.0 to 2.2 +/- 1.5 ng/ml, P = 0.031, compared with placebo). These data demonstrate that aromatase inhibition increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the youthful normal range in older men with mild hypogonadism. Serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range. The physiological consequences of these changes remain to be determined.


I think i got this one rite.. here's a study showing arimidex at different doses increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the normal range, while serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range.

this is maybe out of context, but shows an anti-e does something for ur levels .

 

[tin2]

I dont know about a placebo, but I get huge loads from clomid..

 

[Primordial Performance]

So how much HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - do you run usually on cycle? How often?

200iu hCG EOD seems to be the best dose.

-Pp

 

[Nelson Montana]

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80. Links
Effects of aromatase inhibition in elderly men with low or borderline-low serum testosterone levels.Leder BZ, Rohrer JL, Rubin SD, Gallo J, Longcope C.
Endocrine Unit, Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02114, USA.

anabolic steroids men age, serum testosterone levels decrease, a factor that may contribute to some aspects of age-related physiological deterioration. Although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in frankly hypogonadal men, its use in elderly men with borderline hypogonadism is controversial. Furthermore, current testosterone replacement methods have important limitations. We investigated the ability of the orally administered aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole, to increase endogenous testosterone production in 37 elderly men (aged 62-74 yr) with screening serum testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl. Subjects were randomized in a double-blind fashion to the following 12-wk oral regimens: group 1: anastrozole 1 mg daily (n = 12); group 2: anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly (n = 11); and group 3: placebo daily (n = 14). Hormone levels, quality of life (MOS Short-Form Health Survey), sexual function (International Index of Erectile Function), benign prostate hyperplasia severity (American Urological Association Symptom Index Score), prostate-specific antigen, and measures of safety were compared among groups. Mean +/- SD bioavailable testosterone increased from 99 +/- 31 to 207 +/- 65 ng/dl in group 1 and from 115 +/- 37 to 178 +/- 55 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.054 group 1 vs. group 2). Total testosterone levels increased from 343 +/- 61 to 572 +/- 139 ng/dl in group 1 and from 397 +/- 106 to 520 +/- 91 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.012 group 1 vs. group 2). Serum estradiol levels decreased from 26 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 6 pg/ml in group 1 and from 27 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 5 pg/ml in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Serum lh - leutenizing hormone - levels increased from 5.1 +/- 4.8 to 7.9 +/- 6.5 U/liter and from 4.1 +/- 1.6 to 7.2 +/- 2.8 U/liter in groups 1 and 2, respectively (P = 0.007 group 1 vs. placebo, P = 0.003 group 2 vs. placebo, and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Scores for hematocrit, MOS Short-Form Health Survey, International Index of Erectile Function, and American Urological Association Symptom Index Score did not change. Serum prostate-specific antigen levels increased in group 2 only (1.7 +/- 1.0 to 2.2 +/- 1.5 ng/ml, P = 0.031, compared with placebo). These data demonstrate that aromatase inhibition increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the youthful normal range in older men with mild hypogonadism. Serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range. The physiological consequences of these changes remain to be determined.


I think i got this one rite.. here's a study showing arimidex at different doses increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the normal range, while serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range.

this is maybe out of context, but shows an anti-e does something for ur levels .

Thanks tin. That was with A-dex and the results were done on 37 men as compared to the tests with Clomid which were done on "a subject." Similar results. So again I ask. Why use Clomid over adex?

 

[ironclaw]

interesting points here, makes you wonder, I've got good results from clomid and nolva, but, if i can get the same or close to the same results from what nelson recommended, then I'd like to give it a try my next pct...

 

[needtogetaas]

if clomid doesn't work , then why do my balls get fucking huge?

elephantiasis.... just a thought.

 

[used2juice]

I had a buddy who was trying to conceive with his wife a few months after cycle. It took him 3 months of clomid therapy to start producing sperm again. So it DOES have it's place I think. BUt personally I'm a fan of just plain nolva.