Chucks vs Wrestling shoes

[coolcolj]

Well the shops around here are finally selling Chucks

I picked up a pair of low cuts in black
Anyway I already have a pair of high cuts for a while now.
Westside folks swear by it, but I noticed that the soles is still a good 1+cm thick and it's soft, ie compresses

Hmm so why would anyone deadlift or squat heavy in one? There is no arch support either. After military pressing in them and squatting, I definitely noticed the back end compresses down, and espeically on presses I could feel me keel backwards

I wonder if wrestling shoes are even flatter and lower to the ground? ie like some of the Asics deadlifting shoes I've seen advertised on some websites?
Do they compress at all? Arch support?

 

[JOKER47]

My wrestling shoes are very flat and hard soled. They don't compress much, if at all.

WSB'ers like the chucks for their style of squatting. For your style, I would think that the lifting shoes you have would be better for the reasons you mentioned. (Falling backwards.) Same with the OHPing. Your oly lifting shoes are designed for that. I have a harder time oly high bar squatting in my wrestling shoes. I ususally have to place a small piece of wood under my heels.

The PL style squat is very wide, and you "spread the floor" when you come up. That's where the chucks are supposed to better. (I have not tried squatting in a pair yet, this is what I have heard.)

When you deadlift, you WANT to be "falling backward". Not literally, but you want to feel that.

I hope some of that made some sense.


JMHO

 

[coolcolj]

Ok well I like to fullsquat with flat shoes as well for a change - I lean more forward - and seems to hit my glutes more etc
But with the heel compressing on chucks, that means my toes are actually up in the air slightly more


Do wrestling shoes come in more low cut styles?

 

[JOKER47]

Not that I am aware of. I think all the ones I have ever seen are "high-tops".

I would think that squatting like you do would be a bitch in the flat soled shoes. Take a lot of flexibility, which I don't have. *LOL*

 

[LeeJunFan]

 

[anabolicmd]

Guys, leave the chucks and the wrestling shoes out of the gym. They are sport specific shoes, and are NOT suitable for weightlifting shoes. Chucks are an antique basketball shoe, for petes sake. They have inch thich honeycomb rubber soles. Wrestling shoes at least have a thin sole, but they have zero support and stability. There are actual weightlifting shoes made, although they are usually never sold in stores. Heres an example:

http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/products/shoes.htm

These shoes are used by every single olympic weightlifter, and all they do is squat and pull from the floor. They give you ultimate stability, contact with the floor, and position your body for optimum leverage. Step in from the dark ages, get some real shoes and throw those smelly old chucks away!

 

[Backlash]

Well, they might not be optimal, but chucks are better than regular sneakers and cost about 1/3 as much as those lifting shoes.

Kind of like bench shirts - any shirt is better than raw, but you can get much better shirts by dropping more $$. (Shitty comparison but you see where I'm going)

 

[anabolicmd]

Well, they might not be optimal, but chucks are better than regular sneakers and cost about 1/3 as much as those lifting shoes.

Agreed, they are a little pricey compared to chucks, but not if you consider the fact that they last a long time and really make a big difference in every workout. My current pair is 4 years old, I just glued the soles back on, they still work greatalthough the smell is another story, lol.

 

[StrongChE]

The Chuck Taylor are used for the Westside method of squatting. The reason is that the floor is spread in these. The flat sole is optimal for this type of squatting. It is a wide stance which you will have trouble getting into in a normal power rack. The monolift is optimal for this stance.

When we use the Chuck's, we only put pressure on the outsides and heal of the foot. If the toes are higher than the heal, that is great. We somewhat grip with the toes, but not much pressure is put onto them.

We are able push out to the sides without the shoes buckling. The flat sole is key to our powerlifting technique.

Wrestling shoes are good for conventional deadlifting because you want to be as close to the ground as possible. If pulling sumo the Chuck's are again used for pushing out to the sides.

If some pair of "lifting shoes" really were better we would use them. Powerlifters spend enough money wrapping themselves in all types of material in order to add a couple pounds to their total.

We've tried everything to get our totals up. If they make a hydraulic ass lift for squatting, we'll be the first in line for it.

 

[delldell2]

haha, did you actually squat in LOW cut Chuck's?

 

[JOKER47]

http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/products/shoes.htm

Those would not be benefitial for a PL style of squatting. Those are designed for oly style squatting. (CCJ's primary style.)

He also swears by shoes like that for oly lifting. When I oly style squat, I place a small piece of wood under my heels to simulate the heels on those shoes.

 

[Synpax]

I've been using an old pair of run training shoes - the original Nike Shox R4 with the four shox pillars in the rear.

See here:

http://www.kicksology.net/images/reviews/nike/review_shoxr4_profile.jpg

I am thinking of switching to use my most recently expired/near expired run training shoe - Shox TL. They look like they might be good for lifting:

http://www.kicksology.net/images/reviews/nike/review_shoxtl_profile.jpg

 

[anabolicmd]

Those would not be benefitial for a PL style of squatting. Those are designed for oly style squatting. (CCJ's primary style.)

He also swears by shoes like that for oly lifting. When I oly style squat, I place a small piece of wood under my heels to simulate the heels on those shoes.

Squatting is squatting, the powerlifting squat is actually a half squat. The lifting shoe I mentioned are beneficial for both. And its easier than using a piece of wood. Although, Im all for using whatever works for the individual, as long as he makes an informed choice.

 

[anabolicmd]

I've been using an old pair of run training shoes - the original Nike Shox R4 with the four shox pillars in the rear.

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Oh man, air nikes and nike shox are the worst shoes you could ever lift in. Too thick, too soggy, too unstable although they do look cool

 

[JOKER47]

Squatting is squatting, the powerlifting squat is actually a half squat.

This is a very ignorant statement that I do not want to go into with you here.

The lifting shoe I mentioned are beneficial for both.

This is wrong. You need to try both styles of squatting in both shoes.

Although, Im all for using whatever works for the individual, as long as he makes an informed choice.

That is exactly what PL's and Oly lifters are doing with the 2 different shoes.

 

[StrongChE]

I wouldn't say the powerlifting squat is a half squat. It is a different style of squat. In competition we only break parallel, but in training we do at times drop our asses to our heals.

The competition rules govern the nature of the squat.

There are a variety of ways to squat, each with their own training effect and transferance to the individual's "sport".

Anabolicmd, I'm curious as to what sport(s) you train for, and your methods of training.

 

[coolcolj]

I would think that squatting like you do would be a bitch in the flat soled shoes. Take a lot of flexibility, which I don't have. *LOL*

Well I have no problems full squatting oly style in Chucks. But it feels different more in my glutes
See the last clip I posted with band squats


I already have Ironwork Oly shoes.
well what I'd like is a flat version of an oly shoe for when I don't need a heel
But still want the arch support, rock solid stability and off course low cut style for max ankle ROM

there are proper powerlifting squat shoes, and these do have a heel elevation as well, 3/4 to 7/8 of an inch. Rickey Dale Crain's shoe comes to mind.

http://www.crainsmuscleworld.com/shoe.html
and see bottom
http://www.safe-usa.com/powerlifting1.htm

You get more leverage with a heel raise. There are Inzers which are flat, But they are high cuts, which I don't like, I need ankle ROM.

 

[JOKER47]

Hmmmm...The way I box squat, there is very little ankle movement, and the heel elevation would take away from my drive, I would think.

Might just try elevating my heels on some box squats as an experiment, though. Just for the hell of it....

 

[coolcolj]

talking about free squats here

Snatch grip deads work better with oly shoes vs flat shoes

 

[JOKER47]

talking about free squats here

Snatch grip deads work better with oly shoes vs flat shoes

My free squat is done exactly as my box squats are. I just don't pause on anything. I mentioned box squats as I rarely do free squats unless it happens to be an event in an upcoming comp.


I can believe that on the snatch style deads. I usually have to take a wider stance on those to make up for the lack of heel in my wrestling shoes. Same as if I am attempting a regular snatch. (You've seen my killer form on those before....)

 

[Synpax]

CoolColJ that is a lovely girl in your Avatar.

 

[b fold the truth]

Although, Im all for using whatever works for the individual, as long as he makes an informed choice.

I do use what works for me...the individual. And it IS an informed choice.

A few thousand powerlifters agree with me too...as well as many 1k+ pound squatters.

B True

 

[anabolicmd]

The Chuck Taylor are used for the Westside method of squatting. The reason is that the floor is spread in these. The flat sole is optimal for this type of squatting. It is a wide stance which you will have trouble getting into in a normal power rack. The monolift is optimal for this stance.

When we use the Chuck's, we only put pressure on the outsides and heal of the foot. If the toes are higher than the heal, that is great. We somewhat grip with the toes, but not much pressure is put onto them.

We are able push out to the sides without the shoes buckling. The flat sole is key to our powerlifting technique.

That is precisely what weightlifting shoes have been designed to do from scratch. Chucks have a inch thick fat rubber sole all around. The weightlifting shoe automatically puts you on your heels becase of the built in wooden heel. There is simply no comparison between the two types of shoes in terms of stability, form and support .

 

[b fold the truth]

That is precisely what weightlifting shoes have been designed to do from scratch. Chucks have a inch thick fat rubber sole all around. The weightlifting shoe automatically puts you on your heels becase of the built in wooden heel. There is simply no comparison between the two types of shoes in terms of stability, form and support .

I'm assuming that you have never worn Chucks to wide squat in...because it is NOT a 1" sole. It appears that way...but it is just a rubber piece that goes around the shoe...it is not a sole.

Also...when I squat/pull in my Chucks...there is NO give to them.

B True

 

[anabolicmd]

I'm assuming that you have never worn Chucks to wide squat in...because it is NOT a 1" sole. It appears that way...but it is just a rubber piece that goes around the shoe...it is not a sole.

Also...when I squat/pull in my Chucks...there is NO give to them.

B True

Good for you. Ill stick to actual weightlifting gear myself.

 

[coolcolj]

Bfold there is quite a bit of give/compression in mine
Quite noticeable when doing presses

It's about 1cm and a bit thick, there is a softer inner pad, and the sole has tread which compresses a bit.

I do find it harder to push through the heels in Chucks

 

[anabolicmd]

Bfold there is quite a bit of give/compression in mine
Quite noticeable when doing presses

It's about 1cm and a bit thick, there is a softer inner pad, and the sole has tread which compresses a bit.

I do find it harder to push through the heels in Chucks

Off course. Its a fifty year old basketball shoe design. The requirements for playing basketball and weightlifting could not be anymore different. Trust me, Im not about to run windsprints in my lifting shoes, thats for sure.

 

[coolcolj]

CoolColJ that is a lovely girl in your Avatar.

Yes

 

[rbrown]

Anabolicmd:

I can tell from your posts that you do not know how to do a powerlifting style squat and that you have not tried it. It is not comparable to an OL squat. When done properly, the shins remain completely vertical in the PL squat--something that would be essentially impossible with OL shoes.

You are using different muscles and very different leverages. I do not know of one single powerlifter who can squat big who uses OL weightlifting shoes for a PL squat. They throw the weight on to your quads more--the quads are simply not capable of handling the kind of weight that your posterior chain and hips can handle. I like my wrestling shoes, but I put a rather expensive hard plastic orthotic inside them for arch support. I have also tried chucks and find them very comparable with the use of the orthotic.

I also do OL lifts, front squats and OHP. When I do these I use OL shoes with a heel because they are better for that purpose.

 

[anabolicmd]

Anabolicmd:

I can tell from your posts that you do not know how to do a powerlifting style squat and that you have not tried it.

Whats the difference in the "two squat styles"? The only difference I know of is that powerlifters dont go all the way down, so its really a half squat. What are the other significant differences? Furthermore, the reason the shins stay perpendicular in powerlifting is exactly because they dont go all the way down, and the knee and ankle joints dont flex as far! Talk about a circular argument. The "two squats" are not only comparable, they are exactly the same, the only difference being that the powerlifting squat only goes through 50-60% of the range of motion.

 

[b fold the truth]

Whats the difference in the "two squat styles"? The only difference I know of is that powerlifters dont go all the way down, so its really a half squat. What are the other significant differences? Furthermore, the reason the shins stay perpendicular in powerlifting is exactly because they dont go all the way down, and the knee and ankle joints dont flex as far! Talk about a circular argument. The "two squats" are not only comparable, they are exactly the same, the only difference being that the powerlifting squat only goes through 50-60% of the range of motion.

I'm noticing something here...

1) You may very well be a Troll

2) You like arguing with peole who have accomplished something

3) You are arguing with a Pro Strongman with an 800+ squat AND a top level Amateur who will probably squat near 900 drug-free at a body weight of 250 (rbrown).

If you are NOT a powerlifter and/or do not squat powerlifter style...STOP arguing about it. I have OL shoes...and the competition squat (no matter how deep) is not as good with OL shoes compared to Chucks (because of the forementioned reasons by rbrown).

When I do my overheads and olympic lifts...I wear my OL shoes. When I wide stanced squat...I wear my Chucks.

I'm thinking that you pretty much are a Troll...

B True

 

[anabolicmd]

I'm noticing something here...

1) You may very well be a Troll

2) You like arguing with peole who have accomplished something

3) You are arguing with a Pro Strongman with an 800+ squat AND a top level Amateur who will probably squat near 900 drug-free at a body weight of 250 (rbrown).

If you are NOT a powerlifter and/or do not squat powerlifter style...STOP arguing about it. I have OL shoes...and the competition squat (no matter how deep) is not as good with OL shoes compared to Chucks (because of the forementioned reasons by rbrown).

When I do my overheads and olympic lifts...I wear my OL shoes. When I wide stanced squat...I wear my Chucks.

I'm thinking that you pretty much are a Troll...

B True

And I think this is the second time you have used insults and putdowns when I try to do my best to fully explain my position, and I think its sad that you of all people are acting like this.

 

[b fold the truth]

And I think this is the second time you have used insults and putdowns when I try to do my best to fully explain my position, and I think its sad that you of all people are acting like this.

You explain 'your position' by insulting others. You still do not address any of the points that I make...you simply avoid them.

You reply back to rbrown's post and comment ONLY on the part where he discusses the powerlifter squat... YOU COMPLETELY SKIP THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH WHERE HE EXPLAINS IT!!!!

Again...

Have you EVER done a wide stanced powerlifting squat with Chucks AND OL shoes on???

Seriously...have you? This is VERY important and I hope that you answer this question.

B True

 

[OfWolfandMan]

I was going to reply to the original topic,but just read your pulling techniqu thread.I think I will just agree with what b fold said.You remind me of alot of personal trainers Ive talked to,or the typical know it all at the gym,that feels that the things that are well known to be the wrong way of doing things,are the right ways...basically disagreeing with most of the worlds top lifters

 

[anabolicmd]

I was going to reply to the original topic,but just read your pulling techniqu thread.I think I will just agree with what b fold said.You remind me of alot of personal trainers Ive talked to,or the typical know it all at the gym,that feels that the things that are well known to be the wrong way of doing things,are the right ways...basically disagreeing with most of the worlds top lifters

Well, I'm presenting my points and ideas the best I can, its up to you to form your own opinion. Thats what it is all about.

 

[coolcolj]

Anabolicmd:

I can tell from your posts that you do not know how to do a powerlifting style squat and that you have not tried it. It is not comparable to an OL squat. When done properly, the shins remain completely vertical in the PL squat--something that would be essentially impossible with OL shoes.

You are using different muscles and very different leverages. I do not know of one single powerlifter who can squat big who uses OL weightlifting shoes for a PL squat. They throw the weight on to your quads more--the quads are simply not capable of handling the kind of weight that your posterior chain and hips can handle. I like my wrestling shoes, but I put a rather expensive hard plastic orthotic inside them for arch support. I have also tried chucks and find them very comparable with the use of the orthotic.

I also do OL lifts, front squats and OHP. When I do these I use OL shoes with a heel because they are better for that purpose.

well as a counter arguement
Dr Squat squatted over 1000lbs, and he uses heel lifts, 2 of them in fact according to him. His own words, he says it gives him more leverage and reduces the sticking point. Seeing the clip of his squat record that would seem to be the case - boom straight up!

Rikey Dale Crains's squat shoe has a raised heel, and I believe he used his own shoe for his lifting. Says it gives more leverage.
And I've seen quite a few photos of powerlifters using heeled raise squat shoes for squating.

I guess this goes to show that there are no absolutes - knees forward power squat from Tim Taylor on his 11th national win

I see heel

Those Blue Canadian Oly shoes

Same Olys shoes I have!!!!

looks like oly shoes

and off course chucks

 

[StrongChE]

The style of powerlifting squat we do is with a wider stance because of the leverages. When properly trained I haven't seen a person not excel with it.

Reference Chuck Vogelpohl 1000+ squat at 220lb.

AnabolicMD: you haven't explained one thing.

You are very ignorant (I'm not bashing you it's the truth).

 

[coolcolj]

Well those guys are from the USAPL, and the latter ones from the IPF which have different regs as far as form goes.

 

[anabolicmd]

The style of powerlifting squat we do is with a wider stance because of the leverages. When properly trained I haven't seen a person not excel with it.

What function do Chucks perform better than proper weightlifting shoes? What exactly is it about the wide squat that makes chucks more suitable for it? And by the way, nowhere does it say that the PL squat has to be done with a wide stance at all.

 

[StrongChE]

"What function do Chucks perform better than proper weightlifting shoes? What exactly is it about the wide squat that makes chucks more suitable for it? And by the way, nowhere does it say that the PL squat has to be done with a wide stance at all." - Anabolicmd

You just keep proving that you know nothing about powerlifting.
Go do some research and learn at least a little before posting.

The wide stance is employed because of a stronger recruitment of the hips and posterior chain.

The chucks are better than "proper" weightlifting shoes because:
1) It's powerlifting, not weightlifting.
2) The Chuck's, "a fifty year old shoe" weren't designed specifically for powerlifting, it just happens that they perform better than most other shoes out there.
3) Because of the flat shoe, and canvas top they allow the pushing to the outside of the foot. If you try this in a weightlifting shoe your foot will go over the side of the sole, and you'll end up hurting your ankle. I can push as hard as I can out to the sides and my foot will not roll over the side.

 

[delldell2]

Whats the difference in the "two squat styles"? The only difference I know of is that powerlifters dont go all the way down, so its really a half squat. What are the other significant differences? Furthermore, the reason the shins stay perpendicular in powerlifting is exactly because they dont go all the way down, and the knee and ankle joints dont flex as far! Talk about a circular argument. The "two squats" are not only comparable, they are exactly the same, the only difference being that the powerlifting squat only goes through 50-60% of the range of motion.

There's a difference. Powerlifters usually break at the hips when descending. Oly lifters break at the knees and sit down in between their legs instead of sitting back. That along makes a huge difference in muscles recruited and prime movers.

Powerlifters have a wide stance to shorten the distance descended and use the stronger hips and hamstrings more. It's all about leverage.

If you don't know the difference between powerlifting and olympic style squats then your probably shouldn't talk so authoritatively.

 

[anabolicmd]

There's a difference. Powerlifters usually break at the hips when descending. Oly lifters break at the knees and sit down in between their legs instead of sitting back. That along makes a huge difference in muscles recruited and prime movers.

Powerlifters have a wide stance to shorten the distance descended and use the stronger hips and hamstrings more. It's all about leverage.

If you don't know the difference between powerlifting and olympic style squats then your probably shouldn't talk so authoritatively.

Ok, your opinion is duly noted. I have to disagree because I dont think it makes much sense. Where does it say that olys break at the knees and pl-ers break at the hips? Oly lifters sit back on their heels, they only go between the legs if their legs are thin enough, it has nothing to do with technique but with the range of motion. Again, in both styles one can widen the stance. Width of stance is not strictly "style" specific. And lastly, powerlifters use their hips and hamstrings more? Again, tthis is another function of the depth of the squat, not a result of it being a "different kind" of squat. And by the way, the hips and the hamstrings are not the stronger muscles, the back and quads are. Its not that I dont know the difference, its that there really isnt any insofar as the advantages of chucks over proper weightlifting shoes ae concerned.

 

[Cuthbert]

it has nothing to do with technique but with the range of motion.

wrong.

Again, tthis is another function of the depth of the squat, not a result of it being a "different kind" of squat. And by the way, the hips and the hamstrings are not the stronger muscles, the back and quads are.

wrong.

Do us all a favor and learn about the wide stance PL squat before telling everyone they are wrong.

Unless Clint is right and you are a troll...

 

[anabolicmd]

wrong.



wrong.

Do us all a favor and learn about the wide stance PL squat before telling everyone they are wrong.

Unless Clint is right and you are a troll...

If you just wanted to tell me how wrong I am, you could have pm'd me. If you are going to post it to the board, how about making a positive, thought out contribution to the thread? Because just disagreeing without any facts or arguments and being rude is actually what trolls do. Now how about you tell us how the differences in the two squatting styles make a 50 year old basketball shoe better for lifting weights than a proper, purpose designed and tested weightlifting shoe? Lets assume that there are two squats, one for powerlifters and one for oly lifters. How are chucks better for either one, and why? What makes the weightlifting shoes inferior?

 

[Cuthbert]

If you just wanted to tell me how wrong I am, you could have pm'd me. If you are going to post it to the board, how about making a positive, thought out contribution to the thread? Because just disagreeing without any facts or arguments and being rude is actually what trolls do. Now how about you tell us how the differences in the two squatting styles make a 50 year old basketball shoe better for lifting weights than a proper, purpose designed and tested weightlifting shoe? Lets assume that there are two squats, one for powerlifters and one for oly lifters. How are chucks better for either one, and why? What makes the weightlifting shoes inferior?

I didn't bother explaining because IT HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED. You just didn't listen.

 

[anabolicmd]

I didn't bother explaining because IT HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED. You just didn't listen.

On this thread? Can you tell me the post number? Because I didnt "hear" it. It was said that they have flat soles, you can push out in them, but the soles of weightlifting shoes are flatter, and the are made out of very thin crepe rubber which is far more stable than the squishy fat ruber sole on the chucks. And as far as standing wide and pushing out, lifting shoes beat the chucks hands down. Chucks are nothing more than canvas on rubber, whereas lifting shoes are solid as a rock. There is no comparison as to which is better to lift in. Soggy squishy shoes are not good for lifting weights, period.

 

[OfWolfandMan]

Does anyone have a picture of someone high bar squatting a huge weight with olympic lifting shoes on?Correct me if Im wrong,but arent "weightlifting shoes"with raised heels made for olympic lifting(aside from rdc's shoes that were mentioned)?Chucks may have been a basketball shoe,but since I havent seen a ton of basketball players wearing them anymore,you cant really tag them as a basketball shoe.I would wear roller skates if they helped me to squat better...thats why I wear my chucks when I squat and not my olympic lifting shoes.If I could squat more in my oly shoes you can bet that I would wear them.

 

[coolcolj]

here

Arranda

Charkarov

Pisarenko

Well most of the powerlifting squat shoes have a raised heel. The only one I can think of that doesn't is the Inzer one.

And not forgetting that clip I posted of that huge 290kg, 638lb almost triple bodyweight olysquat

 

[anabolicmd]

CoolColJ, those pics are awesome, I have been looking for that exact pic of Pisarenko in the bottom squat position since I first saw it years ago. What the chucks guys are saying that for PL style squats, which are wider and not as deep, the chucks are better. I cant see how, being that they are soft, offer minimal support and ofdfer no specific advantage over proper lifting shoes.

 

[b fold the truth]

I hope that people never believe that I am saying that the ONLY shoes people should squat in are Chucks... I'm NOT saying that. I AM saying that I believe that they are better for those who squat with a wide stance.

CCJ: Note that in all of those pics of people using the OL Shoes...they are not using a wide stance.

Anabolicmd: You still have NOT answered my questions above...

On a side note...one can not 'spread the floor' in a pair of OL shoes which you need to be able to do in the wide stanced squat. The Chucks allow you to spread the floor without the shoe 'rolling' on you. The OL shoes do not allow this.

B True

 

[anabolicmd]

On a side note...one can not 'spread the floor' in a pair of OL shoes which you need to be able to do in the wide stanced squat. The Chucks allow you to spread the floor without the shoe 'rolling' on you. The OL shoes do not allow this.

B True

This is just simply, false. Anything one can do in chucks, can be done in weightlifting shoes, including any stance, wide or narrow. In all my years of using them, I never had a problem going wide, its never even been an issue. Weightlifting shoes are more stable in any position. Period.

 

[rbrown]

Anabolicmd:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are actually trying to have a discussion with those that powerlift rather than simply try to get a rise out of us. I did not mean my statement as an insult, but rather a statement of fact--that wide stance squat is not that intuitive; it is strange looking, and a newbie will not immediatley be able to squat more using a wide stance. This is because it takes time to develop the special hip strength that you need to have strength that wide while in the hole.

With my assumption, I'll attempt to answer your questions.

I think it will help you to keep in mind that the purposes for an OL squat and a PL squat are entirely different. The purpose of the OL squat is simply as a strength builder movement to assist in doing the OL movements. For that purpose, you want to go as far down as you possibly can because the entire point is to get as low as you can so you can clean or snatch more weight.

In PL, the purpose is to get your hips to pass the line that is even with the tops of your knees--the rules allow narrow or wide stance in every federation (that I know of). Wide stance has taken hold because the most efficient way to do this is a way that results in the least amount of bar movement possible. My stroke with a wide stance is almost half of what it would be if I used a narrow stance. One misconception is that a PL squat is a half squat. In reality, if you look at those that squat narrow with their knees going forward of their knees, in terms of the rules of PL, they are rarely that far below parallel until they almost get their butt on the floor--this is because their shin length has effectively been shortened by letting the knees go forward, thereby requiring the hips to go much, much lower to get to parallel. Check out the above pic of Pisarenko who is rock bottom --IMO, he is just past parallel (keep in mind parallel has nothing to do with how low you are--simply where your hip is vs. where your knee is). The other pics of the smaller guys are farther below parallel. Of course the OL lifter could care less if they are at parallel; they are just trying to get their shoulders as low as they can.

Per my other post, PLs also squat the way they do because it allows them to get the most weight. The posterior chain is very strong when worked--stronger than the quads could ever be. But again, this type of squat would be useless to the Olympic lifter because 1) if you are not reasonably erect in the hole (only possible when knees go foward) you cannot catch the bar on your shoulders; and 2) why squat 900 lbs if your only goal is to clean and jerk 500 lbs?

CoolColJ, I would argue that those people you show are squatting a lot in spite of their technique and not because of it, but that can be argued. The wide stance is probably not as essential for maximal poundages if you are relatively short. I don't have that luxury at over 6' 2" and only 250 lbs. As to the shoes, my arguments really only apply if you use a reasonably wide stance. I know some PLs use a narrow stance and use a slight heel, but rarely do you see one using OL shoes. I would also be so bold to say that if I did find someone using OL shoes for a PL squat, I could increase their PL style squat by changing their shoes. For example, I have a good friend who is strong as horse--he can front squat 500 lbs. He also uses a rather narrow style stance and seemingly goes very deep. However, a close examination of video shows that with his style, this deep range is needed just to get to parallel. He would have a very hard time hanging with me on a PL style squat--not because of strength issues, but because I believe I have the superior form for that movement. The monster shown the the pic above is amazing; I can only imagine what he could squat given time with a wide stance; but he is an OL so he would not care.

As for the shoes, you really would just have to try it out to see. It doesn't really matter if they are chucks or whatever, so long as they have a flat sole--the flat sole allows you to use your back, hips glutes, etc. much more. The first time I tried them, I noticed a huge difference.

I'm happy to discuss it more if you want. I'm not interested in getting into a pissing match with you though.

 

[rbrown]

Anabolicmd:

As a side note, I've met guys like you at many meets who have it all figured out with respect to equipment, form, whatever. One guy even told us that a Crain Genesis poly suit helped him just as much as a canvas suit, even though he had never tried a canvas. I then watch them max out with 450 lbs or something with their cheap suit and OL shoes.

To that I say, great. If you want to believe that I am using inferior equipment, inferior shoes, inferior technique, etc., yet still out-squatting most by 300 lbs or more, I'm happy for you to think I am just that strong. Unfortunately, it is not true.

If you don't PL, this is not really your issue and happy weightlifting. If you do PL, I can only hope that you listen to us; otherwise, I'm quite sure you will not stand much of a chance in competition.

 

[rbrown]

here

Well most of the powerlifting squat shoes have a raised heel. The only one I can think of that doesn't is the Inzer one.

CoolcojJ:

You make it sound like there are many manufacturers of PL shoes. To my knowledge there are only 3--Safe, Crain and Inzer. The Safe and Crain shoes do have a slight heel. Inzer probably sells more than the other two combined. However, most big powerlifters do not use any of these shoes as they realize it is a great way to throw away about $100.

 

[Cuthbert]

rbrown for mod

 

[anabolicmd]

Anabolicmd:

As a side note, I've met guys like you at many meets who have it all figured out with respect to equipment, form, whatever. One guy even told us that a Crain Genesis poly suit helped him just as much as a canvas suit, even though he had never tried a canvas. I then watch them max out with 450 lbs or something with their cheap suit and OL shoes.

To that I say, great. If you want to believe that I am using inferior equipment, inferior shoes, inferior technique, etc., yet still out-squatting most by 300 lbs or more, I'm happy for you to think I am just that strong. Unfortunately, it is not true.

If you don't PL, this is not really your issue and happy weightlifting. If you do PL, I can only hope that you listen to us; otherwise, I'm quite sure you will not stand much of a chance in competition.

Well, I dont use any other equipment other than the shoes, so I cant comment on it. But if you are saying the the best squatters in the world use chucks, you are simply mistaken a vast majority of the worlds greatest squatters prefer weightlifting shoes over chucks, its not even close.

 

[b fold the truth]

This is just simply, false. Anything one can do in chucks, can be done in weightlifting shoes, including any stance, wide or narrow. In all my years of using them, I never had a problem going wide, its never even been an issue. Weightlifting shoes are more stable in any position. Period.

I've squatted in both OL shoes AND Chucks...and the OL shoes ROLL when trying to spread the floor.

You STILL never answered the question that I asked you earlier...and you STILL avoid every single point that I make.

I'm pretty darn sure that you ARE a Troll. You do NOT lift weights and you have trolled on the Chat board too. We don't go for trolls here on this forum.

B True

 

[rbrown]

Well, I dont use any other equipment other than the shoes, so I cant comment on it. But if you are saying the the best squatters in the world use chucks, you are simply mistaken a vast majority of the worlds greatest squatters prefer weightlifting shoes over chucks, its not even close.

It is now obvious that you don't know what you are talking about; but just to humor me, please list some of the "vast majority" of the worlds greatest squatters. How do their numbers stack up against Chuck V., Jesse Kellum, Paul Childress, Mike Miller, Brent Mikesell, Ed Coan and on and on?? I don't imagine very well unless they are doing all of this squatting in their basement.

I guess they prefer a valeo belt as well?

 

[bignate73]

you cant tell me these arent the epitome of style and fashion!

i have the all black ones...but these....may end up being mine soon. smaller toe so they dont look like clown shoes.

 

[b fold the truth]

you cant tell me these arent the epitome of style and fashion!

i have the all black ones...but these....may end up being mine soon. smaller toe so they dont look like clown shoes.

Chucks do look pretty Clownish in a size 15 with narrow feet...lol

B True

 

[coolcolj]

One thing I hate about chucks is that I wish the tongue had a little hoop to put the laces through it to keep the tongue in place like most BBall shoes. The tongue keeps sliding to the side!

Don't get me wrong I like chucks for general working out, like bench, rows etc, but for some exercises when suing near max weights and above I don't think they are suitable IMO.

Well I find the high cuts a bit uncomfortable, but the low cuts are not bad. Are there medium cuts?

 

[B0ARDIN087]

anabolic this is like the third thread(in a row) in which i read and see u making an ass out of yourself...... you probably should stop

 

[b fold the truth]

One thing I hate about chucks is that I wish the tongue had a little hoop to put the laces through it to keep the tongue in place like most BBall shoes. The tongue keeps sliding to the side!

Don't get me wrong I like chucks for general working out, like bench, rows etc, but for some exercises when suing near max weights and above I don't think they are suitable IMO.

Well I find the high cuts a bit uncomfortable, but the low cuts are not bad. Are there medium cuts?

Do you like them for deadlifting?

The tongue doesn't move on mine but I lace them all the way up. The high cut is pretty important to the wide squat. They do give some ankle support and keep the shoe from rolling. See, when you squat you sould try to make the shoes roll over to the sides and you push down and try to rip the carpet apart and spread the floor. The chucks provide a side-wall that give you stability. The low cuts probably do not provide this.

I'm still curious why the Chucks are not suitable for near max weights and above...yet people find them good enough to squat 1,000 pounds plus in them. I've done 800 in mine...and plan to do more in them this year. I've had the saime pair for 2 years now as well.

B True

 

[coolcolj]

well I don't deadlift at least not powerlifter style very often
But the next time I do, they will work well for that.
Certainly beats my old sponegy BBall shoes I have used for past max attempts
Good for sumo I think.
Deadlifting in olyshoes is not bad either apart from the poorer leverage due to the greater height, but no problems with stability

Other people do squat fine in them, I'm not disputing that, but for me they do not offer the confidence and stability I need for squatting heavy for me. I do squat in them with lighter weights for stimulus variety though, and that makes the differences plain to me.

Basicly 2 issues - sponegyness and lack of arch support. Just does not feel like a strong shoe. And I can't get the power down fully due to the give in the shoe - I slam down real hard in my squats
My toes end up in the air because the back has sunk down a bit.

 

[rbrown]

Basicly 2 issues - sponegyness and lack of arch support. Just does not feel like a strong shoe. And I can't get the power down fully due to the give in the shoe - I slam down real hard in my squats
My toes end up in the air because the back has sunk down a bit.

That's why I actually prefer the wrestling shoes. They essentially have no sole--just a thin piece of rubber between your foot and the ground. With my arch support inserted, they have the best of both worlds in my opinion.

 

[coolcolj]

sounds good, I will have to try wrestling shoes one day

LOL this thread has come full circle

 

[anabolicmd]

"What function do Chucks perform better than proper weightlifting shoes? What exactly is it about the wide squat that makes chucks more suitable for it? And by the way, nowhere does it say that the PL squat has to be done with a wide stance at all." - Anabolicmd

The chucks are better than "proper" weightlifting shoes because:
1) It's powerlifting, not weightlifting.
2) The Chuck's, "a fifty year old shoe" weren't designed specifically for powerlifting, it just happens that they perform better than most other shoes out there.
3) Because of the flat shoe, and canvas top they allow the pushing to the outside of the foot. If you try this in a weightlifting shoe your foot will go over the side of the sole, and you'll end up hurting your ankle. I can push as hard as I can out to the sides and my foot will not roll over the side.

Points 1 and 2 are duly noted as your opinion. Point 3 is duly noted as well, but you havent answered the key question: Do chucks do all this better then lifting shoes, and can you explain why and how?

 

[b fold the truth]

I've squatted in both OL shoes AND Chucks...and the OL shoes ROLL when trying to spread the floor.

The tongue doesn't move on mine but I lace them all the way up. The high cut is pretty important to the wide squat. They do give some ankle support and keep the shoe from rolling. See, when you squat you sould try to make the shoes roll over to the sides and you push down and try to rip the carpet apart and spread the floor. The chucks provide a side-wall that give you stability. The low cuts probably do not provide this.

Had you taken the time to read my posts AND the points that I have made...you would find the answers to your questions.

Just for your pleasure...I'll take a video of me wide squatting in BOTH just so that you can see the difference and how there are things that one can do in Chucks that can NOT be done in OL Shoes.

B True

 

[StrongChE]

Ruggerira.jpg

AnabolicMD:

Honestly I have never tried a top of the line weightlifting shoe, as you probably have not tried a Chuck Taylor to perform a wide stance powerlifting squat.

There are powerlifters that have, (B Fold, WBC) and experience has shown that the chuck does not roll over its side.

Powerlifting is not olympic lifting. The end result is different. Powerlifters just want to stand up with the weight. It is not our intention to move the barbell to the shoulders. We can afford to have a different setup and emphasize different muscle groups. You would not setup with your feet as wide as ours to begin a clean. It makes no sense for you to perform a squat as wide as ours in training either.

The olympic lifter keeps the weight on their heels, but do you also "spread the floor" by pushing out to the sides with your feet? Based on your olympic training, you probably do not understand our technique.

 

[Nonerz]

anabolicmd...your posts are exhausting! I'm definitely seeing a trend where you challenge other people's posts and constantly go back and edit your posts.

And I thought I was a perfectionist...baby you take the cake!

Anyhow, my contribution will be a picture of my Chucks!

They are the All Black version! I love them...especially for DL & squats.

I bought Nate a pair of these last year for Christmas: