Can we talk about calorie levels and refeed effects?

[SteelWeaver]

There's an interesting thread on the diet board at the moment about fasting, semi-starvation, and protein synthesis. I was wondering how this might tie into refeeds. Usually, when dieting, one reduces calories or increases expenditure just enough to create a little deficit - a few hundred cals or so. Then when the diet has progressed a bit, and leanness is starting to have an effect on metabolism, one can introduce refeeds to reset leptin levels etc.

Now I have a question about this. The refeed, in this case, would result in little or no fat gain, and on the contrary, should accelerate subsequent fat losses for a while. But is there a lower limit for the calorie level? I mean, at what lower limit would the body suddenly decide that - damn, I'm not gonna pass up this refeed chance just to reset things - I'm gonna take everything that comes in on the refeed and STORE it in my sneaky adipose depots.

Does a starving person's body respond to a refeed in the same way that the body of someone on a small caloric deficit responds?

The post on the diet board would seem to suggest that protein synthesis is increased in the starving person's body ....

 

[MS]

The starving person is much more likely to feel ill, bloated, get diarrhea and have impaired nutrient assimilation. Otherwise a SINGLE refeed is not gonna get stored as adipose tissue. It's the repeated refeeds that lead to problems. Also, this starving person will no doubt have less LBM than the more moderate dieter so they will not be able to store as much glucose in skeletal muscle...this could lead to a greater increase in (transient) hyperglycemia. If you do this a LOT (ie starve/binge) you'll basically wear out your pancreas and most other organs with such huge fluxes of underutilized nutrients. However, there is a marked (again transient) increase in protein synthesis as well.

The increase in protein synthesis and leptin seen after near starvation is no doubt one of the many reasons why our ancestors were able to survive and breed coming out of famine, drought, harsh winters......That, and the uncanny ability to tuck away long term excess calories in a 'safe' place!

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thank you.

So, by repeated refeeds, what do you mean? You mean like the weekly ones a lot of dieting bodybuilders do? Or more like the binge eater/bulimia sufferer?

I'm wondering a lot of things about where I went wrong in my diet, and what's gonna happen post-comp. - how to best take advantage of the disadvantageous situation I'm in ...

Obviously calories were too high on the refeeds, and I started them too early. My diet was textbook perfect the rest of the time, I think. I dunno - maybe calories on the whole were too high from the start ... So for next time, what is better - simply leave the refeeds for later and control them strictly from the get-go, thus risking even more unhealthy mental trauma than dieting usually causes, or create a greater calorie deficit during the week, and keep the refeeds more relaxed?

My body seems to be handling a large calorie deficit strangely well, all things considered. I don't know if this is mental, or if the whole system has just slowed down a lot and adapted, thus giving me the sense that I don't feel as bad as the last time I had to do something along these lines ....

Or LeptiGen works. Or lots of yohimbine works. My lifts have hardly fallen - well, they're taking a little bit of a dive now, but all things considered, I would have expected a dramatic drop. I had a small, quite controlled "refeed" last Saturday, since I was at the end of my tether, mentally and physically, and although I don't think I went above maintenance, it seemed to boost fat loss slightly - which had slowed a bit. And it sure boosted my mood.

So - post-comp, if I were to go have a fairly normal post-comp pig-out, then rein everything in a bit - gradually increasing cals over a few weeks, but having weekly refeeds - would there be any sense in that? Would I be able to take advantage of the anabolic window period here that way? I most sincerely would like to avoid the extreme water bloat I experienced last time, as well as the visible-to-the-naked-eye fat pocket growth! lol

Another question - sorry if this isn't appropriate to a BB board, but I'm interested anyway - the nutrient flux thing - what does bulimia do exactly? There's this huge surge - and the body starts stacking away glycogen, then suddenly it's gone. AND - would an ED like this result in long-term reduced insulin sensitivity? I know I have to go get the tests done - just trying to narrow things down ....

 

[Ceebs]

what does bulimia do exactly? There's this huge surge - and the body starts stacking away glycogen, then suddenly it's gone. AND - would an ED like this result in long-term reduced insulin sensitivity?

I've often wondered this myself. Suppose a bulimic ate a high calorie, high GI meal, ergo stimulating an insulin release, then purged before the meal had a chance to be digested and absorbed? Not to encourage bulimia, but would this have a positive impact on leptin at all?

 

[JJFigure]

I'm noticing the same thing, Steel. Since I decided to do this competition at the end of Nov, I went back on a cutting diet, but I'm keeping my kcals consistently lower - I'm following the anabolic diet, so I eat 1500 during the week, 2000 on Saturday, and 1800 on Sunday (my two carb load days). This averages to 1600/day. I'm feeling fine - not hungry and lifting is strong. My cardio is starting to get harder, but that's the only difference I see. On my last cutting diet, I was eating protein bars (I cold turkeyed them) and averaging 1700-1800/day - some days at 1500, some days at 1700, and refeeds at 2200. I was hungrier on this diet than I am right now.

The hardest part is figuring out how low you can take your kcals w/out losing significant amounts of LBM. The anabolic diet recommended using the calculation 11xbodymass for your cutting kcalories, and so far it seems to be working for me. We'll see how long this lasts. 6 1/2 weeks to go!

 

[JJFigure]

Oh, and I'm curious on the bulimia question too - maybe if I have a long database load this afternoon, I'll browse around and see if I can find anything.

I have a feeling it just really screws you up.

 

[MS]

Bulemics (as opposed to folks with binge-eating disorders where the food stays down) have low leptin levels similar to anorexics. To me this implies that a lot of the carbs are not getting absobed, at least not enough to stimulate leptin.

By frequent refeeds, I mean any frequency that is enough to cause considerable fat gain. This is what cause obesity in women with binge-eating disorders. that, and the fact that their uneducated (emotional) binges are usually pretty high fat, so doesn't do as much to elevate leptin. In other words, as soon as you go hypercaloric, you are probably better of NOT bingeing/ refeeding. Just increase calories and shovel them in regularly and well spaced. Keep them low GI blah blah blah.

"maybe calories on the whole were too high from the start ... So for next time, what is better -
simply leave the refeeds for later and control them strictly from the get-go, thus risking even more unhealthy mental
trauma than dieting usually causes, or create a greater calorie deficit during the week, and keep the refeeds more
relaxed? "

I've said from the beginning I think your cals were a bit high for you likely LBM. So, yes, next time start out with lower day to day cals. And I also don't really recommend you have reffeds until you need them. This varies from dieter to dieter. For me it's around 12% bodyfat that I start needing them. YMMV. There's no harm in planning your refeeds, and this sounds like the way for you to go in future. I always plan my refeeds to the extent that I always eat the exact same foods and amounts for each refeed.

 

[JJFigure]

Hey MS - how low do you take your calories when contest dieting? Just curious.

 

[MS]

I start at around 1600 per day (10 cals per pound), increasing it to ~1800 when I get down to around 12%bf. At this stage I throw in refeeds starting at once per week and increasing in frequency as I get even leaner. I also let the calories creep up to ~2000 per day on non-refeed days, so towards the end I might be refeeding 3 times a week (in my last 2 weeks pre comp). Of course, I am also increasing my activity level as the calories go up, and adding in thermogenics etc.....If you get it right, it is an awesome way to burn the fat while retaing max muscle. If you get it wrong, you end up like Steel tearing your hair out and inducing lots of cortisol by trying to drop it all in a short time on very low cals.

 

[JJFigure]

Bulimia and leptin levels

I found an excerpt of an abstract that addresses leptin levels in normal, anorexic, and bulimic women. Here's the site if you want to read the full study, as well as the excerpt:

http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501A05_Baranowska.htm

Plasma Leptin, Neuropeptide Y (NPY) and Galanin Concentrations in Bulimia Nervosa and in Anorexia Nervosa
by Boguslawa Baranowska, Ewa Wolinska-Witort, Elzbieta Wasilewska-Dziubinska, Krzysztof Roguski &
Magdalena Chmielowska

Keywords:
leptin, NPY, bulimia nervosa, anorexia nervosa

Submitted: July 9, 2001
Accepted: July 29, 2001

Abstract:

OBJECTIVES: It has been reported that leptin and neuropeptide Y (NPY) play a role in the control of appetite and in the regulation of hormonal secretion.


METHODS: Plasma leptin, neuropeptide Y (NPY) and galanin concentrations were estimated in 13 women with bulimia nervosa (BN) 19 women with anorexia nervosa (AN) and in 19 healthy women of the control group (CG).


RESULTS: Plasma leptin concentration in BN was significantly higher than that in AN and it was lower as compared with the control group, despite the same BMI (body mass index) in both the groups. Plasma leptin level in AN was significantly lower as compared with the controls. Plasma galanin concentrations in AN and BN did not differ significantly from the control group.
Plasma NPY concentration in AN was lower than that in the control group. However, plasma NPY level in BN was significantly higher as compared with AN and with the control group (CG). The observed increase of NPY in BN was independent of BMI because BMI in bulimia nervosa was normal.


CONCLUSIONS: The data may suggest that other factors than body weight changes may be involved in the modulation of leptin and NPY release in BN. The pathological behaviour of patients with bulimia nervosa may result from disturbed NPY release which is the strongest orexigenic factor.