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Can muscle hinder your ability?
- Thread starter Fabolous
- Start date
I wouldn't say it would hinder your fighting skills. But can definitely put a damper on you cardio.
The only thing that will damper your fighting skills will be lack of proper training. Or a form of injury that will cause you not to train.
Also daily stretching of muscles is wise to keep yourself from injury.
The only thing that will damper your fighting skills will be lack of proper training. Or a form of injury that will cause you not to train.
Also daily stretching of muscles is wise to keep yourself from injury.
NJL52
New member
Adding strength and size to a muscle correctly makes it more powerful and faster up until world class powerlifting levels. IE unless you squat 600ish then adding 100 to your 300 pound squat will make you run faster.
What slows you down and makes you "stiffer" is adding mass of any type that isn't used for a movement. IE You squat 300 and bench 200. If you were to keep your squat at 300 and add 100 to your squat(adding 25 pounds of mass or whatever it is) your running speed would slow down because you have to move 25 more pounds.
So if your goal is to throw faster punches then increase your bench and shoulder strength. Excessive bicep mass will slow you down, same with forearms.
If you want quicker feet and kicks then squat more.
What slows you down and makes you "stiffer" is adding mass of any type that isn't used for a movement. IE You squat 300 and bench 200. If you were to keep your squat at 300 and add 100 to your squat(adding 25 pounds of mass or whatever it is) your running speed would slow down because you have to move 25 more pounds.
So if your goal is to throw faster punches then increase your bench and shoulder strength. Excessive bicep mass will slow you down, same with forearms.
If you want quicker feet and kicks then squat more.
millhouse340
New member
This really can't be answered. It depends on many different things.
Jeff Monson doesn't seem to have an issue with it in Submission Grappling and Baroni doesn't seem to be hindered in striking. It's how you train it,natural ability, etc. It can definitely effect cardio to a certain point. You need to feed your muscle oxygen. The more you have, the more it takes. There are to many factors to say yes or no. It has benifits and disadvantages in different cases. ...imo
Jeff Monson doesn't seem to have an issue with it in Submission Grappling and Baroni doesn't seem to be hindered in striking. It's how you train it,natural ability, etc. It can definitely effect cardio to a certain point. You need to feed your muscle oxygen. The more you have, the more it takes. There are to many factors to say yes or no. It has benifits and disadvantages in different cases. ...imo
Mysterio
New member
In grappling not so much but in striking sports, yes. In wrestling, I was encouraged to lift and most of time thats what I did in the off-season. When I started to lift weights seriously in H.S. my boxing trainer told me to tone it down. You have to be lose, want to stay at the weight class, and the extra muscle will slow you down and effect your endurance.
being that im a muscled up fighter id say it can hinder your fighting abilty in some ways. but thats why, depending on you body type, you have to create your own style. some subs are harder to use when muscled up. but on the flip side of that it can be harder to sum an individual who is muscled. if he knows what hes doing. too many things can factor into it.
NATURALLYINTENSE
New member
I started full contact fighting about when I weighed in at about 160lbs almost 2 decades ago, and as a bodybuilder, was able to see the differences in my speed, cardiovascular ability and strength as time went on and I slowly increased my bodywieght and overall muscularity.
Strangely enough, back then everyone was very much against being too muscled, but my teacher at the time disagreed. Sure enough, at my highest weight fighting at about 190lbs, I was faster, stronger and had even greater endurance than when I was lighter, even though I trained the same way, the only addition was my added size, and I won all my fights.
From striking to grappling there was an immense improvement in my performance, however I will say that few that weight train actually do so correctly, and so the lack of cardiovascular abilty and inflexibilty could simply be a result of improper training technique.
I have since trained several fighters, and using the training methods I did, (a high intensity bodybuilding routine) they have all improved all around from the increased muscle size.
Strangely enough, back then everyone was very much against being too muscled, but my teacher at the time disagreed. Sure enough, at my highest weight fighting at about 190lbs, I was faster, stronger and had even greater endurance than when I was lighter, even though I trained the same way, the only addition was my added size, and I won all my fights.
From striking to grappling there was an immense improvement in my performance, however I will say that few that weight train actually do so correctly, and so the lack of cardiovascular abilty and inflexibilty could simply be a result of improper training technique.
I have since trained several fighters, and using the training methods I did, (a high intensity bodybuilding routine) they have all improved all around from the increased muscle size.
You will gain strength but lose speed...depends which is it that you want more! It's a trade-off! I lift and fight, so I know first hand what happens when you gain immense muscle!
Djimbe
New member
you will NOT "Lose Speed" because you get stronger , this is a silly wives tale . In fact Speed IS muscular strength . The Stronger you are the faster you are . The problem is that Impirically stronger ppl tend to be bigger framed and thus have more Mass to move , but look at how fast Linebackers are !
I never lost any speed, if any thing i gained speed along with power.I think this contributied to my loss of stamina, but im tring to correct this with a more intense
cardio program.
cardio program.
holden636
New member
I doesn't necessarily "hinder" your ability but, rather, it determines which fighting style would be the most effective for you. For example, if you are smaller with more lean muscle, the most advantageous fighting style for you would be on the ground using more jiu-jitsu and scrambles. If, on the other hand, you are large with more bulk, you may want to develop your fighting style more towards the standup or, for the ground, more of a wrestling base.
Fabolous said:
You need to stretch and stay flexible, though you may lose some range of motion depending how much mass you put on. People may train differently so as to add muscle size instead of strength or speed gains. Bolo was big as well as flexible, but I'm sure Bruce Lee could hit him numerous times before he could manage a counter...just my humble opinion
Djimbe
New member
sshadoww said:You need to stretch and stay flexible, though you may lose some range of motion depending how much mass you put on. People may train differently so as to add muscle size instead of strength or speed gains. Bolo was big as well as flexible, but I'm sure Bruce Lee could hit him numerous times before he could manage a counter...just my humble opinion
oh dear sweet jesus where do you guys come from ?
NO , Bruce could NOT hit Bolo without him managing a counter . In fact Bolo was a far better , more extensively trained , and more experienced Martial Artist than bruce ever was .
You just need to keep training for fighting as you are gaining mass and see how it feels or affects your fight. If you keep stretching and fight training, while you gain, then you should be able to keep your skills. The weight that you put on should be quality weight and not fat. You run into problems when you stop your fight training and bulk up with less than quality weight.
Keep up the cardio as you gain. More muscle requires more oxygen.
Keep up the cardio as you gain. More muscle requires more oxygen.
Djimbe said:
I would love to hear your reasoning provided your responses stay respectful- unlike the last sarcastic reply.
Bolo indeed studied martial arts, and was very flexible for his size, especially considering he was a power lifter- perhaps because he was also an acrobat when he was younger- but I don't see how you can say he was more extensively trained or more experienced than Lee. Before getting into film, they both learned martial arts from a young age- both had great teachers, but Yeung's focus turned to body building (he became a bb teacher) whereas Lee's focus was on martial arts/JKD.
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If you gain weight at a steady and slow pace there shouldn't be a reason you your performance should diminishe... Providing that you do cover all the paths to excell at martial arts. On the other hand if all the weight gain is made abruptly you will loose speed, stamina and consequently power until your body gets used to your new weight. Anyway too much weight even lean muscle is counterproductive, but it all depends on your frame and bone structure.
Djimbe
New member
Simple :
1: Bruce only studied at ANY MA school for 18-22 months According to his fellow students . This is of course Yip Man's school Im referring to .
2: Bruce studied at a time when YM was no longer even really teaching the classes - Bruce's real instructor was Wong Shung Leung (not a bad teacher himsef though)
3: Bruce only learned about half of the Wing Chun system . The fact is that he never completed his training . He was never a certified Instructor under ANY MA system or teacher .
4: Bruce started acting at age 6 , his father was an actor , and so was his mother . He was trained and raised as an actor by actors . He was a 2-year MAist (at best) and a Lifelong ACTOR .
5: You , like most ppl are mistaking renown for experience . Bruce was all theory and no application - he NEVER used JKD in a full contact fight - and no one using it - as he taught it - has EVER won any major full contact title .
Bolo was a Martial Artist and a desciple of Yang style Taijiquan LONG before bruce had even had his first MA LESSON !
Actually Yeung is the Certified Martial Arts instrctor, AND teacher of Physical Culture - you see , the 2 things arent seperate in China . Kung Fu Sifu also teach Strength Training , Gymnastics , Phys. Ed. , Powerlifting , etc. - Martial Arts and Powerlifting do the same thing - generate tons of Force along a specific Plane Of Motion.
And as far as "JKD" goes , the system is a joke , functionally . I mean , its a platypus , trying to be "The Best Of Everything" but you know what ? Systems have the simpler parts to "set up" for the "Best Moves" - In boxing Jabs exist to set up that knockout Hook , and in Muay Thai the Teep sets up the Roundhouse Kicks and Killer Elbows . The Footwork , the Structures - everything goes together . You cant do Muay Thai from Baguazahng footwork , and you cant do Wing Chun with Fencing footwork . You just cant . Systems are INTEGRATED for a reason . The Footwork , stances , strikes , throws and Locks are all designed to work TOGETHER . The fact that bruce thought that things could be different only showed what a novice he was . Fighting techniques dont come off a Buffet or A La Carte .
Djimbe
New member
you DO realise that films are DESIGNED to make the protagonist look faster/stronger/tougher than the "Bad Guys" , right ? No , Bruce would pretty much just have gotten Folded Up by a guy like Bolo .
Actually, there were certain fight sequences in which the film had to be slowed down because Bruce's hand speed was too quick.
Secondly, as far as JKD goes, Lee saw the problems in traditional styles and the need to evolve. JKD utilizes economy of motion as the traditional styles were restricted. He also believed in using whatever works- which could be said is the base MMA is derived from- using what works without being bound by a traditional form. He had amazing skill and work ethic- and his speed was absolutely blinding. Bolo was a very good martial artist, acrobat, and body builder- but I would put my money on Lee hitting him multiple times before Bolo could manage a counter.
+1. Nevertheless Lee deserves the merit of pioneer and "ambassador" of martial arts. Not the best fighter but a great mind.
Djimbe
New member
and thats because at the time the film sucked , not b/c of any special ability of Bruce's . And Jet Li is told to slow down all the time to this day - with FAR superior equipment at his disposal .
Besides , give me a slow bastard with half decent Timing and Ill show you how to DESTROY speed every single time . Speed really just isnt that important once you know the Physics ofcombat well . I mean , sure , its still a factor , but by no means even in the top 5 of what decides fights between top level competitors usually .
no , Lee saw a way to appeal to the adolescent American Mindset , and an easy way to tell ppl that they could get MORE PAWA with LESS TRAINING . Thats what Americans are always looking for , Infomercial Kung Fu . In other words , ppl would hear him saying that they didn't have to do all the "Boring stuff" like forms and stances training and Qigong - all you need to do is kick bags and spar and you'll be DABEST !!!!
That SOUNDS nice , but it is only prtially true . And the only part that DOES use "Economy Of Motion" is the parts from Wing Chun - the traditional system that he PARTIALLY studied and bashed because of his ignorance of how later on the system MAKES UP for the holes in it that beginners dont know .
Stop quoting Sales Pitches . What does that even Mean ? Seriously have you ever trained at a REAL Karate School ? One that trains for Full Contact competition ?
Traditional training is designed to get the correct structure into your body and over time get you to FORGET the form and flow freely . Different systems do this in different ways . Capoeira has the Roda , Taiji has Push Hands , Wing Chun has Chi Sau and ALL have San Shou (free sparring) First you perfect the tools in your aresenal , and then you perfect your use of them . THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS - you have to throw 1000 kicks and 1000 punches a day for 1000 consecutive days to even be considered a BEGINNER by me . You have to punch with Weights in your hands , empty handed , and against Resistance (makiwara/pads) , You have to practice your Stances , your Foortork , and MASTER IT ALL SEPERATELY before you can begin to combine it .
And by the by , MOST successfull MMA fighters are masters of ONE SYSTEM , and have crappily - or at best mediocrely (is that a word ?) - rounded out games in other areas .
What do you mean "Works" ? "Works" for WHAT , exactly ? Movies ? Because he SURE wasnt Fighting ppl as an adult . He made flashy movements on camera , most of wich would have gotten him plowed in a fight .
To be a fighter you have to fight .
To know what works in a fight , you have to fight .
Bruce didnt fight .
Bruce NEVER EVER used JKD in a fight .
EVER .
Bruce had nothing but theory .
"Traditional" seems to be a word youre hung up on . Guess what ? Wrestling , Boxing , BJJ , Sombo - all are TRADITIONAL MAs !
They have Codified Techs , Uniforms , andare handed down over time . In fact all of these are Older than Wing Chun or Baguazhang as systems !
"Forms" are just Shadowboxing . All fighters do it . But its not ALL they do . I Train in Taijiquan . I dont think i even REMEMBER how to do the Tai Chi big frame form in order anymore . I mix it up , I let it Flow , I jump from movement to movement like in a real fight . I dont train it in the order i memorised it , thats just TO MEMORISE IT , not for fighting .
Work ethic is garbage without humility . He couldnt humble himself to study under ppl that knew better than he did . and I can use a NON-MARTIAL example to prove this point . Look at Lee's Workout routines . They were a joke , and they included "Ideas" like the concept that lifting one lb 1000 times was the same thing as being able to lift 1000 lbs , because doing both feats meets the scientific definition of "work" . ANY powerlifter can tell you they are NOT the same thing .
Bruce could have very simplv gone right over to Gold's and gotten advice from ANY of the guys lifting there in the "Golden Age" of Bodybuilding , and guess what ? He wouldn't have broken his back doing Good Mornings , and would have known how to train for strength PROPERLY .
That is your opinion . I look at him and think hes marginally above average , personally .
Then you simply don't know that much about Kineseology , my man .
Blane
New member
william shatner is a judo yodan.
Just read the long post-
I gotta say it was some of the most comical, albeit majorly skewed, information I've seen in a long time.
Anyone reading this nonsense only has to do a google search to find out about Lee's accomplishments and how well respected he was in the martial arts community.
I gotta say it was some of the most comical, albeit majorly skewed, information I've seen in a long time.
Anyone reading this nonsense only has to do a google search to find out about Lee's accomplishments and how well respected he was in the martial arts community.
Once I read an article of how he introduced bodybuilding exercises and the use of protective gear adopted from basebal (for sparring) to martial arts, among other things and he deserves credit for that. That makes him a great mind on martial arts but not the best fighter. If he had a student with greater genetics he would be much better than Bruce. Joe Lewis the greatest kickboxer of all time refused a role on Bruce's movie because he wouldn't accept being considered a inferior fighter and Chuck Norris took the role.
Djimbe
New member
Translation :
I can find any evidence at all of bruce in a fight using JKD , or anything else as an adult . Even though he was one of te most famous ppl on earth in his day , & certainly the most famous MAist in history regardless of level .
Being "respected" and having ppl say a lot of nice things about you is irrelevant . Fighting and putting your mettle up against another man's and Training and Knowledge in your feild are . Bruce never Fought the fight nor Did the Work to achieve the Rank .
William Shatner with his Judo Yodan is a more dedicated , humble , and accomplised MAist than Bruce lee .
Just not as Popular or hyped up .
