btn presses..

[carlsuen]

can anyone pls provide me a good link to explaining BTN presses? cuz i tried them yesterday push pressing style.. when i dropped it, it hit the back of my neck.. ouch.. how do u other guys do it? maybe someone could explain it to me? G0.5? thx in advance..

 

[BiggT]

Lower the bar fast, but still under control, just like a front push press. You want to keep the traps flexed and let the bar land there in the position you'd do an olympic squat, safely away from the base of the neck. When the bar hits, bend at the knees to absorb the blow.

 

[anotherbutters]

G0.5? thx in advance..

Guinness, you've been downgraded!

 

[xblitz44x]

Below is a video of Marius Pudzianowski behind the next pressing a lot of weight. You can see how he bends his knees to absorb the weight; like biggt mentioned:

http://forum.athletes.com/fitshow/week28/week28lg.htm

 

[vin01]

I just watched that vid of Pudzianowski. What a monster!

Question, to anybody who does BTN Push Presses:

Does BTN work the traps more then front PP's? I just noticed Marius' huge traps and wondered if all that BTN Push Pressing would help recruit the traps. Anybody care to post about their experiences and BTN PP's, as far as trap involvment goes?

 

[BiggT]

I just watched that vid of Pudzianowski. What a monster!

Question, to anybody who does BTN Push Presses:

Does BTN work the traps more then front PP's? I just noticed Marius' huge traps and wondered if all that BTN Push Pressing would help recruit the traps. Anybody care to post about their experiences and BTN PP's, as far as trap involvment goes?

I probably wouldn't say any more or less than any other type of OHP. Pudz just has ridiculous traps and they stand out on just about anything he does. The traps should be tight on the movement to support the bar hitting them though. Traps are involved to a degree on all overhead lifts, however, the main way to develop them is heavy pulling, and carrying and moving with weight, like farmer's walks really develops the traps.

As far as my own experiences, I honestly can't say because I do so much olympic lifting and pulling that any trap development I have, I'd have to give credit to the pulling.

 

[Illuminati]

can anyone pls provide me a good link to explaining BTN presses? cuz i tried them yesterday push pressing style.. when i dropped it, it hit the back of my neck.. ouch.. how do u other guys do it? maybe someone could explain it to me? G0.5? thx in advance..

dont' do them. instead, do them in front of you. your shoulders will thank you later on

 

[carlsuen]

in an earlier thread.. everyone said to position the bar as the clean postition and when about to push the bar overhead, just dip your knees slightly and push while lowering the elbow at the same time and pushing the weight..

dunno if that makes sense.. but i tried it.. and the overall movement felt weird and all..

 

[silver_shadow]

dont' do them. instead, do them in front of you. your shoulders will thank you later on

bro, are you saying then that injuries (maybe RC) are more common with BTN presses... i just did them the other day as a variation, seeing all the noise about them here. i did notice my shoulders were pretty sore from it.

 

[Protobuilder]

SS -- Many people discourage behind-the-neck pressing b/c of rotator strain. Notice how far out to the sides your elbows flare when you're doing BTN pressing, and if you bring a heavy bar down slowly, there is a lot of strain in the bottom position. Now compare that elbow position to the elbow position in the front squat, which is similar to many people's front press/push press positioning. Your shoulder capsule is opened up quite wide in the BTN press position. It's the same reason people tell you to tuck your elbows when flat benching.

I'm not saying DON'T do it, but that's why people are afraid of it.

 

[silver_shadow]

SS -- Many people discourage behind-the-neck pressing b/c of rotator strain. Notice how far out to the sides your elbows flare when you're doing BTN pressing, and if you bring a heavy bar down slowly, there is a lot of strain in the bottom position. Now compare that elbow position to the elbow position in the front squat, which is similar to many people's front press/push press positioning. Your shoulder capsule is opened up quite wide in the BTN press position. It's the same reason people tell you to tuck your elbows when flat benching.

I'm not saying DON'T do it, but that's why people are afraid of it.

yea, i was thinking the same thing.... judging from my experience the other day. thx for the confirmation.
what kind of benefits would one get from BTN presses as opposed to pressing in front of the neck?

 

[BiggT]

Here is the thing with grip. When I jerk from behind, I use a snatch-grip.....but that has been okay for me because there is really no shoulder pressing action in a jerk, so no strain, just dip and drive.

When I push press from behind, I use the same grip in terms of hand placement as when I clean, no wide at all. I have alway been a closer-grip bencher too. The only press I go slightly wider in are inclines, and they are still not obscenely wide. I think a lot of problems from pressing in general that people suffer from is because they grip way too wide.

I saw a Pudzianowski video posted on here a little while back, I didn't view it, but I have seen it before, watch carefully, there are a couple videos floating around the net of him, and the 405x2 one with a snatch grip is a JERK, so the wide grip is harmless in that case because he isn't pressing.

Another thing to do is while you do lower the bar under control, don't 'feel' a negative, go as fast as you can while maintaining control.

Lastly, like anything, a lift is good for you if you benefit from it. If something just hurts you, no matter what, then do something else that is effective. No sense getting injured. I am strongly of the opinion that behind the neck work is perfectly safe when done correctly, however, if for some reason it just doesn't feel right, then press from the front.

 

[BiggT]

yea, i was thinking the same thing.... judging from my experience the other day. thx for the confirmation.
what kind of benefits would one get from BTN presses as opposed to pressing in front of the neck?

You are forced to use a better leg drive due to being weaker in the bottom position from behind the neck. Also, a strong, powerful leg drive is easier to use because you aren't dealing with a barbell racked in the front. Also, with any behind-the-neck work, layback is greatly reduced and the body is always more upright.

If you want to really get good at clean and jerks or you plan to compete in olympic lifting, then push pressing from the front rack is what you want to do obviously, but for other strength athletes behind-the-neck work is very beneficial, as long as it doesn't cause discomfort.

 

[silver_shadow]

You are forced to use a better leg drive due to being weaker in the bottom position from behind the neck. Also, a strong, powerful leg drive is easier to use because you aren't dealing with a barbell racked in the front. Also, with any behind-the-neck work, layback is greatly reduced and the body is always more upright.

If you want to really get good at clean and jerks or you plan to compete in olympic lifting, then push pressing from the front rack is what you want to do obviously, but for other strength athletes behind-the-neck work is very beneficial, as long as it doesn't cause discomfort.

yea, i had to use some leg drive to get the bar moving and then press it up from there. maybe the soreness was more because i really wasn't used to it. i felt that it may have some positive carry over to my bench.

 

[BiggT]

It may very well be just because it is a new lift for you.....the only thing that catches my eye is that you said 'some' leg drive. use a whole lot of leg drive, it is a very explosive lift. Don't turn it into a cheating military press with momentum to help you lock it out....explode and drive with the leg like their is no tomorrow, do not even begin to push with the arms until the very end of the lift.

That is another problem with push pressing from the front, people tend to incorporate the arms to soon and don't ge tthe full benefit of an explosive leg drive.

 

[silver_shadow]

It may very well be just because it is a new lift for you.....the only thing that catches my eye is that you said 'some' leg drive. use a whole lot of leg drive, it is a very explosive lift. Don't turn it into a cheating military press with momentum to help you lock it out....explode and drive with the leg like their is no tomorrow, do not even begin to push with the arms until the very end of the lift.

That is another problem with push pressing from the front, people tend to incorporate the arms to soon and don't ge tthe full benefit of an explosive leg drive.

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to BiggT again.

thanks bro, i'll keep that in mind this thursday when i do them again.

 

[Protobuilder]

You might also look for my recent thread on push pressing, silver shadow. I got some good help in that thread about using more explosion.

I also forgot to add earlier that I think a lot of people's "concerns" can be alleviated if you've got good shoulder flexibility, and I think you can develop that simply by working the movement using light weights and really working the technique. It's kind of like shoulder stability/flexibility in the OH squat . . . it's hard as FUCK at first, but once you develop the shoulder flexibility, it's a lot easier to balance by locking the bar out BEHIND your head.

 

[vin01]

I tried BTN push presses today.

Wow, they are much more difficult then doing in the front.
I guess it will take some getting used to.

I did feel more solid though, as far as the leg explosion and powering up the bar is concerned. Maybe because the bar is already behind my head and I just exploded up as with the front you need to bring the bar back as it goes up over your head.

As far as weight is concerned, I usually start off my front PP's with 135, I tried that BTN, and wow, I couldn't budge it. I dropped down to 115 and stayed there for 4 sets while I got accustomed to the movement.

I like the BTN presses.

PS My grip was right inside the rings, if that counts for anything, and no pain.

 

[Illuminati]

bro, are you saying then that injuries (maybe RC) are more common with BTN presses... i just did them the other day as a variation, seeing all the noise about them here. i did notice my shoulders were pretty sore from it.

just puts a lot of unnecessary stress on your shoulders. and there really is no difference (movement wise) by doing them in front, but less likely to get injured. so that is why I would do them in front

 

[carlsuen]

oh crap.. i just found my reason for my RC strain.. i'll never do them btn ever again.. why didn't i check this thread again.. sigh..

 

[petpre61]

It may very well be just because it is a new lift for you.....the only thing that catches my eye is that you said 'some' leg drive. use a whole lot of leg drive, it is a very explosive lift. Don't turn it into a cheating military press with momentum to help you lock it out....explode and drive with the leg like their is no tomorrow, do not even begin to push with the arms until the very end of the lift.

That is another problem with push pressing from the front, people tend to incorporate the arms to soon and don't ge tthe full benefit of an explosive leg drive.

whats the difference between a jerk and a push press then? when does the pressing come into play? is a push press kind of like a missed non-split jerk where you press the last few inches?

 

[BiggT]

In both, you dip and then drive the bar up using your legs, in a PP you begin to 'press out' with the arms when the bar is at the highest point you'll get it at from the leg drive.....in a jerk, you drive your body under the bar......a 'no good' jerk that was pressed out will look like a push press because the lifter didn't get under the bar fast enough or drive it high enough or both, but mechanically they are a little different as in a jerk you are trying to get under the bar and a PP you just lock it out once you've milked your leg drive for all it's worth.

 

[carlsuen]

since there is a difference in opinion and experience regarding pressing from in front and BTN, could every one pls post up what they tried and what they felt?

 

[BiggT]

I like them both.....for somebody who uses the PP to train for strength or for a sport (other than olympic lifting) I think BTN is a great way to go....it forces you to use leg drive to launch the bar (as you're supposed to) because the bar isn't moving if you don't, as most people are much weaker the first several inches from BTN......it also teaches leg drive to people who have a tough time racking a barbell in the front (which btw is why Ripptoe wants it done from day one even with strict presses from the from, if u can't rack a bar you can't clean it and u certainly can't PP or jerk it).

I've done them both ways since I was a kid, I have never felt any discomfort from either and have never been injured from either.....I think if people grip too wide, or if they messed their shoulders up from something else, or if they have OHP'd with a partial ROM and have developed a serious strength inbalance and then they activate the weaker portion during a full-range lift, they may have issues.....but in and of itself, when done right, pressing from behind the neck is perfectly 100% safe in my opinion.....also, maybe somebody does nothing wrong, and a lift just bothers them, if so, then don't do something that irritates.....but overall, I don't and never will understand the fear of BTN pressing and the bad rap it gets as being 'dangerous'.

 

[carlsuen]

i mean strict pressing.. not PP.. but even then, i believe training overzealously with anything overhead is asking for trouble.. thx biggt!

 

[BiggT]

Again.....both great lifts (front and behind) and both are important to use at times, and when done right and not with some assinine mile-wide grip or a retarded partial ROM, I think both are perfectly safe.....from my personal experience, push pressing makes me a better strict presser, but the reverse was never true.

 

[silver_shadow]

T, what kind of grip do you use for btn's vs in front (PP)? right now, i'm pretty comfortable with a snatch grip behind and clean in front.

 

[BiggT]

For PP's I use the same grip in both the front and back, which is my clean-grip, about shoulder-width.......I also use that grip for jerks from the front......when jerking BTN, I use a snatch-grip.

 

[silver_shadow]

do you see any possible risk in doing BTN push presses with a snatch grip? the clean grip feels too unnatural.

 

[carlsuen]

SR posted up a squatting BTN press awhile ago.. it's done with a snatch grip.. i tried it and it's hard as hell too..

i feel that using too wide a grip might put u at risk of injury..

the way i do it.. i use a clean grip like biggt, and of cuz i do full ROM.. i lower it till my neck (at least below my hair line before pressing it back up)..

 

[SgtSlaughter]

I think BTN is a great way to go....it forces you to use leg drive to launch the bar (as you're supposed to) because the bar isn't moving if you don't, as most people are much weaker the first several inches from BTN......it also teaches leg drive to people who have a tough time racking a barbell in the front.

exactly.

 

[BiggT]

People do it, personally, I wouldn't train that grip for more than 2 or 3 weeks at a time though and I wouldn't do it with limit weights (maybe use it to strengthen the position for snatches for example)......jerking is another story, but with pressing a weight out, I think a wide grip can contribute to issues over time.

I'd actually like to hear what Super Rice has to say about it.

do you see any possible risk in doing BTN push presses with a snatch grip? the clean grip feels too unnatural.

 

[silver_shadow]

SR posted up a squatting BTN press awhile ago.. it's done with a snatch grip.. i tried it and it's hard as hell too..

i feel that using too wide a grip might put u at risk of injury..

the way i do it.. i use a clean grip like biggt, and of cuz i do full ROM.. i lower it till my neck (at least below my hair line before pressing it back up)..

yea i saw his vid. i haven't tried it yet, but from what i gather, the poundages that can be used here aren't going to bother your shoulder health.