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brute strength vs. technique

dullboy

dullboy

New member
bitme got dullboy thinking with a comment he made in another thread...


at what point is brute strength > technique?

meaning - if one of those worlds strongest men dudes, like say Mariuz Pudzianowski, got into a fight with a skilled technician like royce gracie, who wins?

would the strongman just be able to snap his limbs with brute strength?

125lbs of extra muscle has to mean something, no?

lol
 
dullboy said:
bitme got dullboy thinking with a comment he made in another thread...


at what point is brute strength > technique?

meaning - if one of those worlds strongest men dudes, like say Mariuz Pudzianowski, got into a fight with a skilled technician like royce gracie, who wins?

would the strongman just be able to snap his limbs with brute strength?

125lbs of extra muscle has to mean something, no?

lol
Click to expand...


a lot of the strongman and powerlifters use technique- take them out of the setting of a specific competition, and although most would be hella strong, they don't have the speed or skill to win a fight against someone who's skill is specifically fighting.
 
dullboy said:
bitme got dullboy thinking with a comment he made in another thread...


at what point is brute strength > technique?

meaning - if one of those worlds strongest men dudes, like say Mariuz Pudzianowski, got into a fight with a skilled technician like royce gracie, who wins?

would the strongman just be able to snap his limbs with brute strength?

125lbs of extra muscle has to mean something, no?

lol
Click to expand...

Well obviously the strength and size will help counter technique a bit. It will be much harder for a person to manipulate and maneuver the persons body into the positions necessary for a sub in bjj. As far as MMA and all that stuff goes strength only goes so far. Look up Bob Sapp as a perfect example.
 
The speed and agility of the stronger, untrained guy will count in his favour as will the nerve of the trained guy in facing down an approaching monster.

I got into a fight with a black belt judo guy many years ago. As it happened, I was simply much faster than he was and my strength and speed beat his training easily. Equally, I have a friend who studies White Crane Kung Fu who is around 100 pounds lighter than I am. I wouldn't want to have to tangle with him at all.
 
crew9 said:
Well obviously the strength and size will help counter technique a bit. It will be much harder for a person to manipulate and maneuver the persons body into the positions necessary for a sub in bjj. As far as MMA and all that stuff goes strength only goes so far. Look up Bob Sapp as a perfect example.
Click to expand...



the couple guys that sapp lost to were also big dudes. like 240 - 250, no?

so they could probably match his power.
 
HeatherRae said:
LOL...but my dad could kick the crap outta your dad, so there.
Click to expand...


my dad is dead, so probably.

when he was alive, its more likely that he would have shot anyone in the heart who tried to fight him.
 
blut wump said:
The speed and agility of the stronger, untrained guy will count in his favour as will the nerve of the trained guy in facing down an approaching monster.

I got into a fight with a black belt judo guy many years ago. As it happened, I was simply much faster than he was and my strength and speed beat his training easily. Equally, I have a friend who studies White Crane Kung Fu who is around 100 pounds lighter than I am. I wouldn't want to have to tangle with him at all.
Click to expand...


dullboy says:

how much do you weigh, blut wump?

you're a pretty strong guy, no?
 
dullboy said:
the couple guys that sapp lost to were also big dudes. like 240 - 250, no?

so they could probably match his power.
Click to expand...
Most of them were big guys sure. Big compared to Sapp, not so much.
 
Depends on what it is you are doing... stand up fighting i beleve brute strength would overcome technique. Grappling, holds more on technique. I could go up against guys 50+lbs heaver than me and still come out on top... can't say the same for stand up fighting though.
 
dullboy said:
dullboy says:

how much do you weigh, blut wump?

you're a pretty strong guy, no?
Click to expand...
Currently around 270 at high teens bf. I'm not sure how to answer the strength question except to reel off recent lifts which would be tedious. I think I'm strong but weak for my weight.
 
blut wump said:
Currently around 270 at high teens bf. I'm not sure how to answer the strength question except to reel off recent lifts which would be tedious. I think I'm strong but weak for my weight.
Click to expand...


270?

that's a big a boy.

is that blut wump in your avatar? looks like you got some pipes.
 
blut wump said:
I think I'm strong but weak for my weight.
Click to expand...


yes, dullboy feels the same way.

his training partner is a 142 lb korean guy who bench presses 275 for reps. his max is 335.

dullboy is stronger than him, but not by much.

he has crazy power to weight ratio. like a lotus.
 
From a females perspective, I would say that there is just a simple threshold where brute strength has to outweigh technique. A woman can learn all the technique that she wants, but when a big man really comes at you, you are most likely going to be toast. I have had to defend myself against an attack when I lived in Miami. I was successful and fended the guy off of me, and he ran away. However, I have always said that if he would have hit me in the face, it would have been "game over." Of course, that is an extreme example -- small woman v. very large tall man. At the time, I had about one year of experience in muay thai boxing, but he pretty much immediately tackled me, so that sort of negated lots of what I knew.

Anyway, when someone outweighs you lots, technique can fend them off, but if you slip up at all, it is hard to get away from all that power.
 
I wiegh 274 lbs...

I feel like if I can get inside on a guy...his arse is mine...

But you watch some of these guys wrap their entire body around your arm...how do you compete with that.
 
stilleto said:
my dad is dead, so probably.

when he was alive, its more likely that he would have shot anyone in the heart who tried to fight him.
Click to expand...
Holy shit! Sorry.

Gosh, rough family life Stilleto.
 
I would say in terms of martial arts , there in no point where strength will override technique...

It only takes about 15lb of pressure to snap someone elbow. A similar amount of pressure you can headlock... aah, Nevermind

Step on someone's foot and then drive your knee into his. Snap , crackle , pop

Too many ways to stop a bigger person with little strength at all.
 
crew9 said:
Look up Bob Sapp as a perfect example.
Click to expand...

Bob is hardly a good example, he's strong yea but doesn't know how to use his strength, he is also bigger than most people with the same strength level i think his size has something to do with his sloppy technique. If he lost some weight and had better technique he would be a very good fighter.

I recon a strong man would have a hard time beating a guy with great technique but no special strength, but with just a little while training ( like 2 months ) i recon the advantage would be in the strongmans favour. As for Marius, isn't he a boxing champ ?
 
gjohnson5 said:
I would say in terms of martial arts , there in no point where strength will override technique...

It only takes about 15lb of pressure to snap someone elbow. A similar amount of pressure you can headlock... aah, Nevermind

Step on someone's foot and then drive your knee into his. Snap , crackle , pop

Too many ways to stop a bigger person with little strength at all.
Click to expand...


word... its all relative to the sport
 
I lost my interest in fighting when I was 12. But I will tell this story.

I was a very good wrestler....had never lost. One day I thought it would be fun to wrestle my friends brother...the state heavyweight champ as I recall.

I had a partial cast on my leg which he didn't know about. I was also just playing around. He wasn't.

I tried technique...didn't work against an arm that would not bend. Match lasted a couple seconds. He picked me up and threw me into the ground. My knee swelled up like an orange.

Freak match. Then I check mated him in two, maybe three, moves. Another freak match.

Unless technique wins in seconds, I'll take the extreme size advantage.
 
you must keep in mind from a punching perspective....everyone's head is basically the same no matter how big they are....that for comparesions sake the same punch that will knock a 160 lb guy out will do the same to a 250lb guy...there seems to be a line that starts between 165-185 lbs boxing that guys can have enuff power for one punch knock outs.......not the cumulative knockouts that happen in the lower weight classes.....
 
swolenole said:
you must keep in mind from a punching perspective....everyone's head is basically the same no matter how big they are....that for comparesions sake the same punch that will knock a 160 lb guy out will do the same to a 250lb guy...there seems to be a line that starts between 165-185 lbs boxing that guys can have enuff power for one punch knock outs.......not the cumulative knockouts that happen in the lower weight classes.....
Click to expand...


well... i have to agree to disagree. Everyones pain tolerance is different. Everyones skull thickness is different... therefore, he can be 270lbs and have a glass jaw where as that same punch would only stumble a 220lb man. Everyones make up is different. I've studied the arts for years, still dabble in the studies and plan on taking up boxing in the near future. I've fought women and men in the range of 110lbs to 250lbs in the dojo and i've had my fair share of shakes... never been completely knocked out but came close once and it was a side kick to the kisser that done it. I was a whole whopping 125lbs at the time maybe a tad more but close to that. I grappled and sparred men twice my size, and some that were maybe 20lbs heavier... I was a very agressive fighther so I put myself out there to get a jab or an uppercut... and believe me I did, time and time again.

Size has nothing to do with tolerance, neither does strength.
 
dullboy said:
bitme got dullboy thinking with a comment he made in another thread...


at what point is brute strength > technique?

meaning - if one of those worlds strongest men dudes, like say Mariuz Pudzianowski, got into a fight with a skilled technician like royce gracie, who wins?

would the strongman just be able to snap his limbs with brute strength?

125lbs of extra muscle has to mean something, no?

lol
Click to expand...
the incredible hulk would win a fight against jet li. lol.
 
fuck technique. how do people react when your pulling their face off their skull with your teeth? what karate move counters that? and most bodybuilders couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. ultra-violence wins.
 
HumanTarget said:
fuck technique. how do people react when your pulling their face off their skull with your teeth? what karate move counters that? and most bodybuilders couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. ultra-violence wins.
Click to expand...

oh damn... that is exactly how I was trained to fight... there is no such thing as a fair fight. Loser will always be the loser and I'll fight dirty every minute of the fight. Its not even an option for me.
 
Introspective said:
Bob is hardly a good example, he's strong yea but doesn't know how to use his strength, he is also bigger than most people with the same strength level i think his size has something to do with his sloppy technique. If he lost some weight and had better technique he would be a very good fighter.

?
Click to expand...




Riiiiiiight but we're talking size vs technique, not some varying combination of both. Personally I think "sapp not knowing how to use his strength" is a perfect example of the fact that he has little technique and relies soley upon his slow, heavy handed haymakers.
 
swolenole said:
you must keep in mind from a punching perspective....everyone's head is basically the same no matter how big they are....that for comparesions sake the same punch that will knock a 160 lb guy out will do the same to a 250lb guy...there seems to be a line that starts between 165-185 lbs boxing that guys can have enuff power for one punch knock outs.......not the cumulative knockouts that happen in the lower weight classes.....
Click to expand...


thats bullshit. body size has a direct reflection on taking a punch. I've seen 108lbers and 126lbers who have one punch power, that would never be able to knock out a heavy weight. When guys move up in weight they have a tougher time knocking out their opponents. Look at sugar shane mosley. Had tons of knockouts at lightweight, now a super welter hasn't had one. Had very few at welterweight. Its not because he doesn't hit less hard, its because bigger guys can take bigger punches.
 
Frisky said:
oh damn... that is exactly how I was trained to fight... there is no such thing as a fair fight. Loser will always be the loser and I'll fight dirty every minute of the fight. Its not even an option for me.
Click to expand...
and no street fight is ever one on one.
 
A guy who has done nothing but weight trained all his life = being completely dominated by a fighter who has trained all his life.

not even a comparison, also lifting weights strength is WAY different than fighting/wrestling strength.
 
Testosterone boy said:
I lost my interest in fighting when I was 12. But I will tell this story.

I was a very good wrestler....had never lost. One day I thought it would be fun to wrestle my friends brother...the state heavyweight champ as I recall.

I had a partial cast on my leg which he didn't know about. I was also just playing around. He wasn't.

I tried technique...didn't work against an arm that would not bend. Match lasted a couple seconds. He picked me up and threw me into the ground. My knee swelled up like an orange.

Freak match. Then I check mated him in two, maybe three, moves. Another freak match.

Unless technique wins in seconds, I'll take the extreme size advantage.
Click to expand...

If you used his strength and momentum against him , you can position his arms or legs any way you choose. Let him reach for you and his arm is already straightened. Not only that but him momentum is leaning forward so he could be "thrown" on his back with little effort at all.

I would try to wrestle a wrestler unless I had equal training
 
In a perfect world, with the perfect circumstances, technique would win over pure strenght but real life is sooo different. I witnessed a 150lbs black belt being crushed by some fat tube of lard. How ? The fatman just rammed into the pencil neck like a mad bull. As long as the karate kid could keep a safe distance, there was no problem but when he got rammed it turned into a blood bath. Dont forget that most "technicians" are trained within a specific set of rules. They barely have a clue of what a fight could look like outside this preset pattern.

Nothing beats a good balance of both.
 
yeah i remember a fight where the smaller guy (karate) came out charging, hit the wrestler with a couple of kicks.... the wrestler took the hits, grabbed his leg and took him to the floor. Karate tapped out fast.

let's say, 4 1'2 foot 80-year old technique master vs a 30-year old sumo wrestler.... who wins?
 
Brute strength> technique when you can get away with it. :)
 
blut wump said:
The speed and agility of the stronger, untrained guy will count in his favour as will the nerve of the trained guy in facing down an approaching monster.

I got into a fight with a black belt judo guy many years ago. As it happened, I was simply much faster than he was and my strength and speed beat his training easily. Equally, I have a friend who studies White Crane Kung Fu who is around 100 pounds lighter than I am. I wouldn't want to have to tangle with him at all.
Click to expand...

What I've been saying for years and I've seen it too. Some people are just natural bad asses. If you are fast and can pick a guy up and slam him on the ground with great force, you can kill him. I don't care what he knows. Except for the best of the best.
 
gjohnson5 said:
If you go train at "rent-a-sensei" then mr technique is not a real example
Click to expand...

Yep. Some of these karate schools are a joke. They're a dime a dozen.
 
Frisky said:
well... i have to agree to disagree. Everyones pain tolerance is different. Everyones skull thickness is different... therefore, he can be 270lbs and have a glass jaw where as that same punch would only stumble a 220lb man. Everyones make up is different. I've studied the arts for years, still dabble in the studies and plan on taking up boxing in the near future. I've fought women and men in the range of 110lbs to 250lbs in the dojo and i've had my fair share of shakes... never been completely knocked out but came close once and it was a side kick to the kisser that done it. I was a whole whopping 125lbs at the time maybe a tad more but close to that. I grappled and sparred men twice my size, and some that were maybe 20lbs heavier... I was a very agressive fighther so I put myself out there to get a jab or an uppercut... and believe me I did, time and time again.

Size has nothing to do with tolerance, neither does strength.
Click to expand...

I love you girl, but I'm sorry, I could kick your scrawny ass. I know you are bad, but those men weren't trying to kill you, or they were pussies.
 
Frisky said:
well... i have to agreeso I put myself out there to get a jab or an uppercut... and believe me I did, time and time again.

Size has nothing to do with tolerance, neither does strength.
Click to expand...

You catch an uppercut from me my babe, and you wouldn't be seeing anything because yo ass would be unconscious.
 
Being able to take a blow also would play a huge roll. Even if a guy has awesome tech. if his chin is glass then it won't matter. I would think it varies from person to person. It would also depend on a street fight that has no rules or a sanctioned fight such as ufc which has rules. Some people think weight is an issue, but if that were true, then why do they have weight classes?
 
biteme said:
I love you girl, but I'm sorry, I could kick your scrawny ass. I know you are bad, but those men weren't trying to kill you, or they were pussies.
Click to expand...


dullboy says that there is a lot of truth to this.

dullboy trained in a ju jitsu school for a lot of years under a bunch of nation of islam dudes. these guys were all big. they would go to the the local park and practice striking techniques on trees and cinder blocks. they built up so much scar tissue on their knuckles over the years that their hands became as hard as the trees.

dullboy says you definitely don't want one of those guys hitting you.
 
Last edited:
WSm several years ago....


OD vs. JP


Od was SOOOO out of shape it was realy pathetic....his raw strength was pretty much unmatched though....




so.....Marius vs Gracie??


Gracie wins......it only takes 14 pounds of pressure to break a bone
 
dullboy said:
dullboy says that there is a lot of truth to this.

dullboy trained in a ju jitsu school for a lot of years under a bunch of nation of islam dudes. these guys where all big. they would go to the the local park and practice striking techniques on trees and cinder blocks. they built up so much scar tissue on their knuckles over the years that their hands became as hard as the trees.

dullboy says you definitely don't want one of those guys hitting you.
Click to expand...
I have to agree with the boys on this one. I have seen bad ass women, and it doesn't scare me much, but if a big man is really setting out to hurt you --- well, I would run.

I trained a little, and my teacher would hit me if I didn't keep my hands up. I knew if he wasnt just teaching me a lesson, he would have KILLED me, literally, maybe.
 
If you just talking FIGHTING, as in, I want your blood muthafucker versus an organized "fight" in a ring ... my money's generally on the crazier one. I almost don't care who's bigger, unless we're talking a HUGE size difference, on the caliber of 100+ or more lbs. of solid muscle, and even then the smaller one can sometimes just flat out wear out the bigger dude if he's pissed off enough -- a lot of really big guys have no cardiovascular endurance. When you're willing to kick, bite, spit, throw dirt, go for the jewels, gouge eyes, rip hair, stomp fingers/toes/knees, street fights usually come down to who's crazier and more brutal. Again, barring a DRAMATIC size differential -- face it, you get a REALLY big strong guy, he gets his hands on the smaller dude, if he's smart he squishes the little dude, either locks him up or drops him and smothers him, end of fight.
 
musclemom said:
If you just talking FIGHTING, as in, I want your blood muthafucker versus an organized "fight" in a ring ... my money's generally on the crazier one. I almost don't care who's bigger, unless we're talking a HUGE size difference, on the caliber of 100+ or more lbs. of solid muscle, and even then the smaller one can sometimes just flat out wear out the bigger dude if he's pissed off enough -- a lot of really big guys have no cardiovascular endurance. When you're willing to kick, bite, spit, throw dirt, go for the jewels, gouge eyes, rip hair, stomp fingers/toes/knees, street fights usually come down to who's crazier and more brutal. Again, barring a DRAMATIC size differential -- face it, you get a REALLY big strong guy, he gets his hands on the smaller dude, if he's smart he squishes the little dude, either locks him up or drops him and smothers him, end of fight.
Click to expand...
Yeah! My money would be on the crazy one, too. LOL. Incidentally, it is often acting completely stark raving mad that is a great defensive ploy to get out of a fight.
 
Crazy people are easy too fuck up, its the ones with no concience that are scary. The guy, who after beating your ass, stands up while your still down and blast you in the teeth with a size 11. anyone who says their crazy and talks about all of their fights, doesn't worry me. Its the quiet fucker who doesn't say much and is always plotting angles that concern me the most. Actually, I don't really get concerned with other dudes anymore, after I had my daughter, jail just doesn't sound near as cool.
 
cboogsrun said:
Crazy people are easy too fuck up, its the ones with no concience that are scary. The guy, who after beating your ass, stands up while your still down and blast you in the teeth with a size 11. anyone who says their crazy and talks about all of their fights, doesn't worry me. Its the quiet fucker who doesn't say much and is always plotting angles that concern me the most. Actually, I don't really get concerned with other dudes anymore, after I had my daughter, jail just doesn't sound near as cool.
Click to expand...

Amen to that.....

Don't forget about the dudes that may not be incredibly strong but can take a punch. As we know some can take it a helluva lot better than others can, but some take all you got and keep on coming....

Think, fist fighting Jason (Friday the 13th).

MOJO
 
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