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body shuts down equally on 400mg or 1gram?
- Thread starter Audio8
- Start date
Yes. All with the exception of very low doses of primobolan. Anything over endogenous test production will shut down the production of testosterone. There are many things the body looks for to regulate hormone output so any AAS will/can do it. Anavar has been said not to interfere, though I'm not entirely sure on that one. Any dose of test worth taking will shut down the production of LH which will in turn cease the production of testosterone.
K
KeyMastur
Guest
Yes, that's what he's saying. Which is why "tapering" or "tailing" doesn't work, because it's not like your body is going to recognize lower test levels that you inject and begin producing more of it's own.
S
STORM SHADOW
Guest
Which is another reason why people on here that say 200mg of Test a week is perfect and we should stay on low doses, are giving wrong advise.
If one is going to shut it down......I say make it worth it.
If one is going to shut it down......I say make it worth it.
re: shutdown
Here is a good post on this and the subject of anti-estrogens by A from the fina board. You can visit that board and search through his posts if you want the studies to back up these facts.
Just the facts.
Below I'm going to present the ‘facts' and only the ‘facts' about the ‘anti-estrogens', their mechanisms and their uses. These are ‘facts' I've garnered from research which can be found on medline or on a search engine, from others' blood tests, and from my own blood tests along with experience at a fertility clinic nationally known at a large university. Additionally I should add that I left said fertility clinic and via use of a Clomid/Arimidex (anastrozole) I got my wife pregnant within 4 weeks of leaving said clinic when I could see they really didn't have their mechanisms correct and were going about things in an old-fashioned way which was not and would not lead to the desired end. The method I used is in the research on anastrozole, yet the fertility clinics go about things in a willy-nilly manner and they are ripping people off as they aren't using all the info available, but I digress. I only present the ‘facts' because I'm sure that nobody has any time for anybody else's idle thoughts and speculations because those do NOBODY ANY GOOD. Ultimately you are the one whom through research and learning the ‘facts' has to do what YOU ‘think' is best for you!
Time for the facts.
Fact 1.
All AS will shut down the HPT within 2-4 weeks at ANY dose above 100mg/week. There is some ‘speculation' from study on prebuscent boys that Anavar will not cause HPT shutdown, but that AS is so rare and since nobody reading this is prebuscent, any inferences from anything about Anavar is trivial. Because it is speculation from extrapolations from said studies, is not ‘fact'.
Whether or not anyone believes the actual mechanism of the HPT shutdown is saturation by the actual AS or from the estrogen from aromatized AS is absolutely IRRELEVANT.
The ‘fact' is that AS shut down the HPT.
Fact 2.
If the HPT is shut down from a cycle or from resulting atrophy, the body will NOT produce LH and FSH without some external chemical influence.
Fact 3.
Lack of LH and/or FSH will result in atrophy of the testicles in as little as 2-4 weeks.
Fact 4.
LH and FSH are both needed for normal sperm production, but stimulation or substitution of LH on it's own during and after a cycle keeps the testicles from atrophy and causes endogenous testosterone levels to be normal or higher.
Fact 5.
Clomid is an oestrogen which is an anti-estrogen working by occupation of the same receptor as estrogen, yet not permitting the same side affects. After Clomid cessation, the resultant higher levels of testosterone and their aromatization to estrogen without the presence of the oestrogen (Clomid) can lead to acne. Clomid also stimulates LH which from Fact 4 we know will stave off atrophy, yet upon cessation of Clomid the HPT will again slow or shut down because of the higher than normal testosterone levels saturating the HPT just like taking any other AS. Notice I never said, ‘Clomid clears the HPT', as that is not fact. The mechanism doesn't even matter as numerous blood tests prove the post Clomid shutdown of the HPT to be a fact, therefore, the ONLY reason to dose with Clomid is as an anti-estrogen or to prevent testicular atrophy. The reason you take 100mg/week and then 50mg/week at the end of a cycle is because the atrophied cells need GREATER initial stimulation to normalize testosterone production. Clomid prevents atrophy no matter what dose of AS you are on.
Fact 6.
Nolvadex works the same as Clomid regarding the raising of LH and resultant and post Nolvadex use on the HPT and testosterone. However, the ‘anti-estrogen' benefits of Nolvadex are more site/cell specific as Nolvadex inhibits production of IGF-1 at said cell. Noted suppression of IGF-1 production is why many, if not most, find that Nolvadex hinders further gains.
Fact 7.
Arimidex (anastrozole) is the ‘King' or maybe it should be called ‘Queen' of the anti-estrogens as it is a true anti-estrogen. At 1/4mg to 1/2mg per day, anastrozole eliminates much, if not all estrogen production by destroying or preventing the formation of aromataze enzymes which convert testosterone to estrogen. Anastrozole will NOT work with water wt gains of progestenic
AS like Anadrol or Trenbolone or Deca. Even so, it has been found that anastrozole use with said progestenic AS causing gyno symptoms will suppress or reverse any further gyno flare ups.
Fact 6.5
Cytadren deserves a note, but not much since it has fallen out of favor and has so many side affects. Cytadren (aminoglutethimide) also destroys or eliminates aromatase by affecting p-450 enzyme pathways. Problem is that p-450 is used in so many processes by so many cells like those that produce testosterone, that you can get many undesirable sides besides aromatase supression.
Fact 8.
Anastrozole affects the HPT and raises testosterone and FSH levels above normal, but this mechanism is not fully understood! Anastrozole also prevents atrophy and post anastrozole use and DOES NOT the same post use/cycle crashes as does Clomid.
Fact 9.
Normal sperm is NOT produced on Clomid or Nolvadex or anastrozole alone. As you have read, one chemical affects LH and the other FSH. Remember from above Fact 4, both LH and FSH are needed at normal levels for normal sperm. Therefore, if you use Clomid and anastrozole together, you can get somebody pregnant even if you are in the middle of a cycle!
Fact 10.
How to get somebody pregnant and how to finish a cycle with lessor or no crashing. These are facts because they have been done and repeated. Protocol: Clomid for 2 weeks using the normal suggested dose in Fact 5. During the SAME period you may also use anastrozole at 1/4mg to 1/2mg per day OR you may wait until after Clomid cessation. Continue anastrozole use for 2-4 weeks AFTER cessation of Clomid and taper down to 1/4mg/day or 1/4 EOD if going out to 4 weeks.
Fact 11.
Don't ask ‘what if'! For the very same reason I don't recommend cycles I will not entertain ‘what if' type questions! If you choose to vary use or don't have a particular dose handy or want to finish your cycle another way, then don't ask me! The above protocol are tried, true, and proven and variance may not achieve the same end result. Don't ask me because such changes on your part will be PURE SPECULATION so do so at your own risk.
Here is a good post on this and the subject of anti-estrogens by A from the fina board. You can visit that board and search through his posts if you want the studies to back up these facts.
Just the facts.
Below I'm going to present the ‘facts' and only the ‘facts' about the ‘anti-estrogens', their mechanisms and their uses. These are ‘facts' I've garnered from research which can be found on medline or on a search engine, from others' blood tests, and from my own blood tests along with experience at a fertility clinic nationally known at a large university. Additionally I should add that I left said fertility clinic and via use of a Clomid/Arimidex (anastrozole) I got my wife pregnant within 4 weeks of leaving said clinic when I could see they really didn't have their mechanisms correct and were going about things in an old-fashioned way which was not and would not lead to the desired end. The method I used is in the research on anastrozole, yet the fertility clinics go about things in a willy-nilly manner and they are ripping people off as they aren't using all the info available, but I digress. I only present the ‘facts' because I'm sure that nobody has any time for anybody else's idle thoughts and speculations because those do NOBODY ANY GOOD. Ultimately you are the one whom through research and learning the ‘facts' has to do what YOU ‘think' is best for you!
Time for the facts.
Fact 1.
All AS will shut down the HPT within 2-4 weeks at ANY dose above 100mg/week. There is some ‘speculation' from study on prebuscent boys that Anavar will not cause HPT shutdown, but that AS is so rare and since nobody reading this is prebuscent, any inferences from anything about Anavar is trivial. Because it is speculation from extrapolations from said studies, is not ‘fact'.
Whether or not anyone believes the actual mechanism of the HPT shutdown is saturation by the actual AS or from the estrogen from aromatized AS is absolutely IRRELEVANT.
The ‘fact' is that AS shut down the HPT.
Fact 2.
If the HPT is shut down from a cycle or from resulting atrophy, the body will NOT produce LH and FSH without some external chemical influence.
Fact 3.
Lack of LH and/or FSH will result in atrophy of the testicles in as little as 2-4 weeks.
Fact 4.
LH and FSH are both needed for normal sperm production, but stimulation or substitution of LH on it's own during and after a cycle keeps the testicles from atrophy and causes endogenous testosterone levels to be normal or higher.
Fact 5.
Clomid is an oestrogen which is an anti-estrogen working by occupation of the same receptor as estrogen, yet not permitting the same side affects. After Clomid cessation, the resultant higher levels of testosterone and their aromatization to estrogen without the presence of the oestrogen (Clomid) can lead to acne. Clomid also stimulates LH which from Fact 4 we know will stave off atrophy, yet upon cessation of Clomid the HPT will again slow or shut down because of the higher than normal testosterone levels saturating the HPT just like taking any other AS. Notice I never said, ‘Clomid clears the HPT', as that is not fact. The mechanism doesn't even matter as numerous blood tests prove the post Clomid shutdown of the HPT to be a fact, therefore, the ONLY reason to dose with Clomid is as an anti-estrogen or to prevent testicular atrophy. The reason you take 100mg/week and then 50mg/week at the end of a cycle is because the atrophied cells need GREATER initial stimulation to normalize testosterone production. Clomid prevents atrophy no matter what dose of AS you are on.
Fact 6.
Nolvadex works the same as Clomid regarding the raising of LH and resultant and post Nolvadex use on the HPT and testosterone. However, the ‘anti-estrogen' benefits of Nolvadex are more site/cell specific as Nolvadex inhibits production of IGF-1 at said cell. Noted suppression of IGF-1 production is why many, if not most, find that Nolvadex hinders further gains.
Fact 7.
Arimidex (anastrozole) is the ‘King' or maybe it should be called ‘Queen' of the anti-estrogens as it is a true anti-estrogen. At 1/4mg to 1/2mg per day, anastrozole eliminates much, if not all estrogen production by destroying or preventing the formation of aromataze enzymes which convert testosterone to estrogen. Anastrozole will NOT work with water wt gains of progestenic
AS like Anadrol or Trenbolone or Deca. Even so, it has been found that anastrozole use with said progestenic AS causing gyno symptoms will suppress or reverse any further gyno flare ups.
Fact 6.5
Cytadren deserves a note, but not much since it has fallen out of favor and has so many side affects. Cytadren (aminoglutethimide) also destroys or eliminates aromatase by affecting p-450 enzyme pathways. Problem is that p-450 is used in so many processes by so many cells like those that produce testosterone, that you can get many undesirable sides besides aromatase supression.
Fact 8.
Anastrozole affects the HPT and raises testosterone and FSH levels above normal, but this mechanism is not fully understood! Anastrozole also prevents atrophy and post anastrozole use and DOES NOT the same post use/cycle crashes as does Clomid.
Fact 9.
Normal sperm is NOT produced on Clomid or Nolvadex or anastrozole alone. As you have read, one chemical affects LH and the other FSH. Remember from above Fact 4, both LH and FSH are needed at normal levels for normal sperm. Therefore, if you use Clomid and anastrozole together, you can get somebody pregnant even if you are in the middle of a cycle!
Fact 10.
How to get somebody pregnant and how to finish a cycle with lessor or no crashing. These are facts because they have been done and repeated. Protocol: Clomid for 2 weeks using the normal suggested dose in Fact 5. During the SAME period you may also use anastrozole at 1/4mg to 1/2mg per day OR you may wait until after Clomid cessation. Continue anastrozole use for 2-4 weeks AFTER cessation of Clomid and taper down to 1/4mg/day or 1/4 EOD if going out to 4 weeks.
Fact 11.
Don't ask ‘what if'! For the very same reason I don't recommend cycles I will not entertain ‘what if' type questions! If you choose to vary use or don't have a particular dose handy or want to finish your cycle another way, then don't ask me! The above protocol are tried, true, and proven and variance may not achieve the same end result. Don't ask me because such changes on your part will be PURE SPECULATION so do so at your own risk.
more studies
A few more A posts. These are studies proving HPTA shutdown on low doses. Anything will shut you down, anything. Primo, anavar, test in doses as low as 100mg/week and possibly even lower. If it's binding to your AR's, you're going to be shut down. It's time to wake up from denial and dispell some of these myths.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Effect of administration of a single dose of testosterone oenanthate on
human serum and seminal plasma inhibin concentration.
Hurkadli KS, Arbatti NJ, Mehta S, Sheth AR
The effect of a single administration of testosterone oenanthate (250 mg, intra-muscularly) on
serum and seminal plasma inhibin concentrations were studied in four adult human volunteers. A
significant decrease in serum FSH and LH levels were observed by day 6 when the serum
testosterone levels were high. These were followed by a sharp increase in serum and seminal
plasma inhibin concentration by day 8 and day 12 respectively. The present investigations also
suggest the existence of a positive relationship between the serum and seminal plasma inhibin
concentrations.
PMID: 6416111
Testosterone suppression of the HPT axis.
MacIndoe JH, Perry PJ, Yates WR, Holman TL, Ellingrod VL, Scott SD
Department of Psychiatry, College of Medicine, University of Iowa, Iowa City, USA.
BACKGROUND: Although studies have demonstrated the suppression of normal gonadal function
in the experimental setting, the specific mechanisms by which androgenic-anabolic @#%$ impact
male gonadal function remain ill defined. Following 2 consecutive weekly injections of an identically
appearing testosterone cypionate (TC) placebo, subjects were randomized to a TC dose of 100
mg/wk, 250 mg/wk, or 500 mg/wk. Following the last weekly injection of active agent the subjects
received 12 consecutive weeks of TC placebo injections. RESULTS: Spermatogenesis was
impaired by each of the doses of TC employed in this study, but the observed decreases in, sperm
count were neither strictly dose dependent nor consistent between individuals treated with the same
dose. Basal leuteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) became undetectable
2 weeks after the start of 250 and 500 mg/wk TC injections and were lost within 5 to 6 weeks of
starting 100 mg doses. Pituitary gonadotropin responses to leutinizing hormone releasing hormone
(LHRH) disappeared more slowly with FSH responses being lost 1 to 3 weeks after the loss of
basal FSH activity. Leuteinizing hormone responses to LHRH appeared to be suppressed last,
disappearing 4 to 6 weeks after FSH responses to LHRH. CONCLUSIONS: Exogenous
testosterone-mediated inhibitory influences on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis were
reversed following the cessation of drug treatment.
Testosterone suppression of the HPT axis.
MacIndoe JH, Perry PJ, Yates WR, Holman TL, Ellingrod VL, Scott SD
Department of Psychiatry, College of Medicine, University of Iowa, Iowa City, USA.
BACKGROUND: Although studies have demonstrated the suppression of normal gonadal
function in the experimental setting, the specific mechanisms by which androgenic-anabolic
@#%$ impact male gonadal function remain ill defined. Following 2 consecutive weekly
injections of an identically appearing testosterone cypionate (TC) placebo, subjects were
randomized to a TC dose of 100 mg/wk, 250 mg/wk, or 500 mg/wk. Following the last weekly
injection of active agent the subjects received 12 consecutive weeks of TC placebo injections.
RESULTS: Spermatogenesis was impaired by each of the doses of TC employed in this study,
but the observed decreases in, sperm count were neither strictly dose dependent nor consistent
between individuals treated with the same dose. Basal leuteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle
stimulating hormone (FSH) became undetectable 2 weeks after the start of 250 and 500 mg/wk
TC injections and were lost within 5 to 6 weeks of starting 100 mg doses. Pituitary gonadotropin
responses to leutinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) disappeared more slowly with FSH
responses being lost 1 to 3 weeks after the loss of basal FSH activity. Leuteinizing hormone
responses to LHRH appeared to be suppressed last, disappearing 4 to 6 weeks after FSH
responses to LHRH. CONCLUSIONS: Exogenous testosterone-mediated inhibitory influences
on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis were reversed following the cessation of drug
treatment.
Effect of administration of a single dose of testosterone oenanthate on
human serum and seminal plasma inhibin concentration.
Hurkadli KS, Arbatti NJ, Mehta S, Sheth AR
The effect of a single administration of testosterone oenanthate (250 mg, intra-muscularly) on
serum and seminal plasma inhibin concentrations were studied in four adult human volunteers. A
significant decrease in serum FSH and LH levels were observed by day 6 when the serum
testosterone levels were high. These were followed by a sharp increase in serum and seminal
plasma inhibin concentration by day 8 and day 12 respectively. The present investigations also
suggest the existence of a positive relationship between the serum and seminal plasma inhibin
concentrations.
A few more A posts. These are studies proving HPTA shutdown on low doses. Anything will shut you down, anything. Primo, anavar, test in doses as low as 100mg/week and possibly even lower. If it's binding to your AR's, you're going to be shut down. It's time to wake up from denial and dispell some of these myths.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Effect of administration of a single dose of testosterone oenanthate on
human serum and seminal plasma inhibin concentration.
Hurkadli KS, Arbatti NJ, Mehta S, Sheth AR
The effect of a single administration of testosterone oenanthate (250 mg, intra-muscularly) on
serum and seminal plasma inhibin concentrations were studied in four adult human volunteers. A
significant decrease in serum FSH and LH levels were observed by day 6 when the serum
testosterone levels were high. These were followed by a sharp increase in serum and seminal
plasma inhibin concentration by day 8 and day 12 respectively. The present investigations also
suggest the existence of a positive relationship between the serum and seminal plasma inhibin
concentrations.
PMID: 6416111
Testosterone suppression of the HPT axis.
MacIndoe JH, Perry PJ, Yates WR, Holman TL, Ellingrod VL, Scott SD
Department of Psychiatry, College of Medicine, University of Iowa, Iowa City, USA.
BACKGROUND: Although studies have demonstrated the suppression of normal gonadal function
in the experimental setting, the specific mechanisms by which androgenic-anabolic @#%$ impact
male gonadal function remain ill defined. Following 2 consecutive weekly injections of an identically
appearing testosterone cypionate (TC) placebo, subjects were randomized to a TC dose of 100
mg/wk, 250 mg/wk, or 500 mg/wk. Following the last weekly injection of active agent the subjects
received 12 consecutive weeks of TC placebo injections. RESULTS: Spermatogenesis was
impaired by each of the doses of TC employed in this study, but the observed decreases in, sperm
count were neither strictly dose dependent nor consistent between individuals treated with the same
dose. Basal leuteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) became undetectable
2 weeks after the start of 250 and 500 mg/wk TC injections and were lost within 5 to 6 weeks of
starting 100 mg doses. Pituitary gonadotropin responses to leutinizing hormone releasing hormone
(LHRH) disappeared more slowly with FSH responses being lost 1 to 3 weeks after the loss of
basal FSH activity. Leuteinizing hormone responses to LHRH appeared to be suppressed last,
disappearing 4 to 6 weeks after FSH responses to LHRH. CONCLUSIONS: Exogenous
testosterone-mediated inhibitory influences on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis were
reversed following the cessation of drug treatment.
Testosterone suppression of the HPT axis.
MacIndoe JH, Perry PJ, Yates WR, Holman TL, Ellingrod VL, Scott SD
Department of Psychiatry, College of Medicine, University of Iowa, Iowa City, USA.
BACKGROUND: Although studies have demonstrated the suppression of normal gonadal
function in the experimental setting, the specific mechanisms by which androgenic-anabolic
@#%$ impact male gonadal function remain ill defined. Following 2 consecutive weekly
injections of an identically appearing testosterone cypionate (TC) placebo, subjects were
randomized to a TC dose of 100 mg/wk, 250 mg/wk, or 500 mg/wk. Following the last weekly
injection of active agent the subjects received 12 consecutive weeks of TC placebo injections.
RESULTS: Spermatogenesis was impaired by each of the doses of TC employed in this study,
but the observed decreases in, sperm count were neither strictly dose dependent nor consistent
between individuals treated with the same dose. Basal leuteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle
stimulating hormone (FSH) became undetectable 2 weeks after the start of 250 and 500 mg/wk
TC injections and were lost within 5 to 6 weeks of starting 100 mg doses. Pituitary gonadotropin
responses to leutinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) disappeared more slowly with FSH
responses being lost 1 to 3 weeks after the loss of basal FSH activity. Leuteinizing hormone
responses to LHRH appeared to be suppressed last, disappearing 4 to 6 weeks after FSH
responses to LHRH. CONCLUSIONS: Exogenous testosterone-mediated inhibitory influences
on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis were reversed following the cessation of drug
treatment.
Effect of administration of a single dose of testosterone oenanthate on
human serum and seminal plasma inhibin concentration.
Hurkadli KS, Arbatti NJ, Mehta S, Sheth AR
The effect of a single administration of testosterone oenanthate (250 mg, intra-muscularly) on
serum and seminal plasma inhibin concentrations were studied in four adult human volunteers. A
significant decrease in serum FSH and LH levels were observed by day 6 when the serum
testosterone levels were high. These were followed by a sharp increase in serum and seminal
plasma inhibin concentration by day 8 and day 12 respectively. The present investigations also
suggest the existence of a positive relationship between the serum and seminal plasma inhibin
concentrations.
boss
New member
HOLY CHRIST GUYS.........AFTER ALL THAT I AM CONFUSED SO WTF IS THE DOSE THAT WILL BASICALLY SHUT YOU OFF TO ANYMORE GAINS? WHY DO PEOPLE USE 1 GRAM A WEEK? AT WHAT POINT IS IT TOO MUCH, I KNOW IM DUMB BUT PUT IT IN IDIOT TERMS FOR ME PLEASE............GOOD INFO THOUGH BRO'S THANKS AGAIN.
Up to the top. Everybody should read this.
boss, These studies here show that as little as one 100 mg test shot will shut you down just as much as a typical cycle would. It's doubtful that there are studies on how much is too much. There are a lot of factors in muscle growth which makes this hard to determine, and AS will get you only so far. Obviuosly it will depend on the individual, and I'd guess that the typical cycle dosages recommended on this board are pushing the limits of what's beneficial.
The posts that I copied on here raise an interesting point though, which is that if you're a serious AS user, doing 3 or more cycles per year, there really is no reason to come off from the point of view of your HPTA. You're probably just naturally restoring the axis as you start your next cycle. The same effective result can be obtained by staying on your cycle and just taking clomid and arimidex throughout, and you'll definitely grow more. Think about it.
boss, These studies here show that as little as one 100 mg test shot will shut you down just as much as a typical cycle would. It's doubtful that there are studies on how much is too much. There are a lot of factors in muscle growth which makes this hard to determine, and AS will get you only so far. Obviuosly it will depend on the individual, and I'd guess that the typical cycle dosages recommended on this board are pushing the limits of what's beneficial.
The posts that I copied on here raise an interesting point though, which is that if you're a serious AS user, doing 3 or more cycles per year, there really is no reason to come off from the point of view of your HPTA. You're probably just naturally restoring the axis as you start your next cycle. The same effective result can be obtained by staying on your cycle and just taking clomid and arimidex throughout, and you'll definitely grow more. Think about it.
S
STORM SHADOW
Guest
boss said:
You are misunderstanding.......it does not shut you down from growth......it's shutting you down from NATURAL Test production. Most Pros stay on all year long......you don't see them getting small......the point is......they take gains keeper formulas to come off & most do HCG every couple months to keep the testies from atrophy. The question you should be asking is.......
"How much is enough without it becoming waste or causing adverse side effects to the liver". Many say that 700mg to one gram per week is enough.
great post. I especially love the information about the clomid, nolva, arimidex facts. That information is just about priceless. We've always believed clomid to basically bring you back to normal after a cycle, but since reading this I guess we are mistaken.
I was wondering why after coming off my 1st test/dbol cycle and using clomid for 3 weeks after that I ended up losing 30lbs over a few months, became somewhat depressed and confused about things, started drinking alot and using shit. That explains it perfectly. So when you discontinue the clomid you basically put yourself back to square one: suppressed or shut down HPT. I guess that is why I experienced all those symptoms.
the good thing is there is something we can do to prevent that. Taking the arimidex post cycle along with or after the clomid will bascially help to restore the HPT to natural, unadulterated levels. I didnt know Arimidex was responsible for those physiological actions within the body.
Well I know now that clomid and arimidex will be my MUST after cycle.somewhat like this:
clomid: 100mg week1, 50mg week 2
arimidex: .5mg EOD week 2-3, .25mg EOD week 4
what do yall think?
I was wondering why after coming off my 1st test/dbol cycle and using clomid for 3 weeks after that I ended up losing 30lbs over a few months, became somewhat depressed and confused about things, started drinking alot and using shit. That explains it perfectly. So when you discontinue the clomid you basically put yourself back to square one: suppressed or shut down HPT. I guess that is why I experienced all those symptoms.
the good thing is there is something we can do to prevent that. Taking the arimidex post cycle along with or after the clomid will bascially help to restore the HPT to natural, unadulterated levels. I didnt know Arimidex was responsible for those physiological actions within the body.
Well I know now that clomid and arimidex will be my MUST after cycle.somewhat like this:
clomid: 100mg week1, 50mg week 2
arimidex: .5mg EOD week 2-3, .25mg EOD week 4
what do yall think?
The only correction is that in fact 5, he said that clomid prevents atrophy no matter the dose of AS you are on. And I just learned earlier today that's completely wrong. It's old info, it used to be believed that LH production in the pituitary was dependent only on estrogen levels, but androgen levels also inhibit its production. So clomid's only use during the cycle is as an anti-e, but it doesn't work as well as arimidex, so it's primary purpose should be post cycle, with arimidex throughout the entire cycle.
CLEMDOG said:
Or it could be that you started Clomid therapy too soon... were you using Sustanon? And how long did you wait before commencing therapy? I just find a loss of 30lbs very extreme, even if it's mostly water; it could be the combined effect of long lasting suppression (by the long ester in the Sust) with low androgen levels.
Chef- I do believe I had started the clomid too early. I was using aratest, but I began the clomid 100/50/50, I believe it was, 10 days after my last shot of ara. Hell by day 10, some of the esters were just starting to take effect.
DOM- I think taking clomid throughtout the cycle is just about pointless anyway. But as far as clomid post cycle, say you didnt use arimidex, how effective is this in bringing back natural test levels? it seems to me what was being said is that clomid use at the end of the cycle helps to prevent/reverse testicular atrophy, but once the clomid is discontinued then your body recognizes the elevated androgen levels and shuts down again. if so then what the hell is the point in taking clomid post cycle?
and as far as using clomid in conjunction with arimidex post cycle how much more effective is doing this to bring back natural test levels and to prevent long term suppression, than using clomid alone? After completing clomid/arimidex therapy (like I outlined in the post above) should your body be stabilized or normalized as far as your HPT is concerned?
DOM- I think taking clomid throughtout the cycle is just about pointless anyway. But as far as clomid post cycle, say you didnt use arimidex, how effective is this in bringing back natural test levels? it seems to me what was being said is that clomid use at the end of the cycle helps to prevent/reverse testicular atrophy, but once the clomid is discontinued then your body recognizes the elevated androgen levels and shuts down again. if so then what the hell is the point in taking clomid post cycle?
and as far as using clomid in conjunction with arimidex post cycle how much more effective is doing this to bring back natural test levels and to prevent long term suppression, than using clomid alone? After completing clomid/arimidex therapy (like I outlined in the post above) should your body be stabilized or normalized as far as your HPT is concerned?
clem the point of taking it post cycle is that they trick your testes into producing testosterone thus reversing the atrophy they underwent during the cycle. Then when you stop taking the clomid, the testes won't be atrophied and you'll undergo an HPT slowdown but not shutdown since the levels of test in your system from clomid use are going to be normal to slightly above normal.
Post cycle arimidex use in conjunction with clomid is helpful because the arimidex _may_ help restore the HPTA after you stop clomid use, and it'll take care of any estrogen side effects relating to the clomid crash since you continue arimidex use a couple weeks after clomid.
Post cycle arimidex use in conjunction with clomid is helpful because the arimidex _may_ help restore the HPTA after you stop clomid use, and it'll take care of any estrogen side effects relating to the clomid crash since you continue arimidex use a couple weeks after clomid.
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