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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

Single Factor Questions:

First off, I'm up to page 22 or so of this AWESOME thread so if my questions have been asked & answered, I apologize.

1) What is a "novice"? I think Glenn P. said you need multiple years of quality training before you become an intermediate lifter. I'm nearing 30, lifted w/ crappy results for a few years in my 20s and have spent the past year getting back into it . .. just doing your typical BB'ing routine. I've recently been enlightened by 5x5, Glenn, Madcow, etc. I think I"m a novice so I"m doing SF . . . but I don't need to "learn" how to do the basics, etc. Should I just shut up and keep doing SF? I guess the downside to going to DF too early is it's more than you really need. But at the same time, it seems like DF is a superior training program/theory . . . so why not start there?

2) On Wednesday's lifts (light day), I understand you pyramid the first 3 sets, and then stay there and do either one or two add'l sets. Are you supposed to shoot for PRs each week on the deads and inclines (I do militaries)?

3) If you start to feel serious fatigue while doing the SF version, should you take a deload week or what? Glenn P. mentioned you should make small adjustments in your program to keep progress going . . . so if you're feeling really beat down after a while, should you follow Glenn's advice and tweak some variables (but keep the basic SF program) or should you deload for a week?

4) [tied into 3d question] How do you know when it's time to finally make the jump to DF?

Thanks guys! Looking forward to your responses.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Protobuilder said:
Single Factor Questions:

First off, I'm up to page 22 or so of this AWESOME thread so if my questions have been asked & answered, I apologize.

1) What is a "novice"? I think Glenn P. said you need multiple years of quality training before you become an intermediate lifter. I'm nearing 30, lifted w/ crappy results for a few years in my 20s and have spent the past year getting back into it . .. just doing your typical BB'ing routine. I've recently been enlightened by 5x5, Glenn, Madcow, etc. I think I"m a novice so I"m doing SF . . . but I don't need to "learn" how to do the basics, etc. Should I just shut up and keep doing SF? I guess the downside to going to DF too early is it's more than you really need. But at the same time, it seems like DF is a superior training program/theory . . . so why not start there?

2) On Wednesday's lifts (light day), I understand you pyramid the first 3 sets, and then stay there and do either one or two add'l sets. Are you supposed to shoot for PRs each week on the deads and inclines (I do militaries)?

3) If you start to feel serious fatigue while doing the SF version, should you take a deload week or what? Glenn P. mentioned you should make small adjustments in your program to keep progress going . . . so if you're feeling really beat down after a while, should you follow Glenn's advice and tweak some variables (but keep the basic SF program) or should you deload for a week?

4) [tied into 3d question] How do you know when it's time to finally make the jump to DF?

Thanks guys! Looking forward to your responses.

1) I think Glenn and Mark have been calling an advanced lifter, one who requires some type of more formal periodization to make optimal progress. I think that's 1-2 years under their training but that's not BBing bullshit training and most guys on this site even with 4-5 years of lifting don't require that. What I called Novice for the purposes of this program was someone who doesn't require periodization - I'll probably readjust and call this intermediate since too many raw beginners are thinking that the linear option is a good beginner program (i.e. beginner is different from novice to me but whatever - symantics).

2) That for the squats, the deads and inclines are run similar to the Monday workout in the perscribed sets/reps. Just incriment up each week.

3) If your lifts keep increasing keep going (i.e. first symptom of overreaching is decreased performance so assuming you are working hard and pushing real PRs - you would begin to struggle and fail when encountering this). That said, maybe there's another problem with you so pay attention to your body. Get sleep, eat, use your brain. When progress stops i.e. you aren't getting any more reps and can't increase the weight (i.e. if you don't get all your sets/reps you hold weight constant) then maybe look at changing. Also, if it's just one lift and you other big ones keep climbing (like squats and some others) I'd just mess with the one lift. It's when the majority go that you have to do something to the entire program.

4) One of the changes you make is to reset back a few weeks and work up again (maybe volume is changed or rep range or some different exercises included which should not be done in the BBer fashion of shotgunning whatever but chosen strategically to address potential weak points or whatever). So in working up you have some lighter weeks to recover and then hopefully a series of PRs for weeks at a time. Eventually this 'series of PRs' gets pretty darned short and this stuff doesn't work so well (and if it is still working keep pushing). After a lot of changes and resets and other stuff you wind up with what is essentially a dirty periodizzation anyway (i.e. all the resets and just an incriment or maybe 2 of progress). At that point, having exhausted your options, you'd migrate to something not based on 1x per week PRs. It's about efficiency of progression. If you can get even 3 PR increases after 4 build up weeks, let's say at 2% per week, that's over 6% (it's compounded). That's still a lot better than 2-5% ever 4-8 weeks. Through time PR frequency decreases and workload increases.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2 said:
4) One of the changes you make is to reset back a few weeks and work up again (maybe volume is changed or rep range or some different exercises included which should not be done in the BBer fashion of shotgunning whatever but chosen strategically to address potential weak points or whatever). So in working up you have some lighter weeks to recover and then hopefully a series of PRs for weeks at a time.

So you would do some ramping up then. That's what I was wondering about. I didn't say it very clearly, but I was wondering how pushing near max Deadlifts each week, for example, could be very productive, considering that that's how I've been training for the past year w/ very little progress. LoL I mean, from what I understand, you shouldn't expect much progress if week after week you just keep working w/ near maximal weights, hoping that this will be the week when you can finally add 5 pounds and get your reps. LoL To break the barrier, you've got to come down in weight some and build back up, breaking past your old PR.

Just making sure I've got it -- you push your Wed. lifts each week and if progress stalls, you come down, build back up for several weeks, and then try to push PRs for as many weeks as you can. Repeat as necessary (and maybe even tweak some variables on the lift that you're struggling with). Right?
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Protobuilder said:
So you would do some ramping up then. That's what I was wondering about. I didn't say it very clearly, but I was wondering how pushing near max Deadlifts each week, for example, could be very productive, considering that that's how I've been training for the past year w/ very little progress. LoL I mean, from what I understand, you shouldn't expect much progress if week after week you just keep working w/ near maximal weights, hoping that this will be the week when you can finally add 5 pounds and get your reps. LoL To break the barrier, you've got to come down in weight some and build back up, breaking past your old PR.

Just making sure I've got it -- you push your Wed. lifts each week and if progress stalls, you come down, build back up for several weeks, and then try to push PRs for as many weeks as you can. Repeat as necessary (and maybe even tweak some variables on the lift that you're struggling with). Right?

Well a newer lifter should get progress for a number of weeks at a time. anotherbutters I think had a 12 week run before stalling some. That's a nice period of PRs (not sure how long he ramped but probably 8 weeks in PR territory straight). The deadlift will also be driven by a lot of your other lifts, a bigger squat is a good way to get a bigger pull. And a bigger pull might well help the squat.

Just plan it out and see where it takes you. These were also pretty cool I though for a cheap solution to work with precise poundages. Particularly useful when you have lower lifts and 5lbs is a big percentage (i.e. you have to do 200x5 to have 5lbs increases be 2.5%). http://davedraper.com/forum/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/126913/Main/126754/
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I don't know if this is useful or not to anyone but I wrote it on another board when we were discussing workload. It covers a lot of things on how workload integrates with frequency and how progression might change over time i.e. new progression becomes less and less frequent and workload increases.

Madcow2 said:
I think one thing most people fail to realize about frequency is that it is a separate variable from volume. As an aside the 3 primary variables in program design being frequency, volume, and intensity as measured by % of your 1RM for a given lift (i.e. weight on the bar). Volume and intensity over a period or session combine to equal workload with calculated tonnage in core lifts being helpful to track in many cases. A good piece for some definitions is here: http://www.qwa.org/articles/tmethod.asp

Anyway, frequency serves to distribute volume or workload over a period of time. Take a lifter who handles 10 sets of legs 1x per week. What most people do when they try to increase frequency is come in and do the same thing 2x per week. Now we have 20 sets per week or a 100% immediate increase in workload - likely not going to happen if things were setup even remotely close beforehand. Over time, this lifter might certainly be able to handle the increase but not 100% at once or even close to it. The correct way to use frequency is to distribute the original 10 sets i.e. perform 5 sets 2x per week. This works a lot better and frequency is really important to increasing weight on the bar and getting better at lifts. Actually this lifter will probably find very quickly that he can rachet up the workload much better with this distribution rather than doing it all on 1 day.

You don't get accustomed to a movement very well doing it once ever 7 days. You don't need to do it every day 2x per day (although in a more technique based lift like the snatch or clean higher frequency is very helpful) but 1x ever 7 days or more is pretty bad and the whole overtraining thing has a lot more to do with the CNS that muscular recovery and aggregate workload over a period is a better way to guage CNS impact than frequency in isolation as overtraining is systemic accumulated fatigue on the CNS (i.e. what is stimulative over 4 weeks might drop someone in their tracks if done for 8 weeks without rest).

To illustrate this better a lot of guys who use 5x5 style programs based on Starr's or Pendlay's stuff squat 3x per week. Even raw beginners, even elite lifters. How is this done, most people think the frequency is impossible. Well, you walk everyday many times without problems so frequency alone is not the issue. It's the combination of volume and intensity (or workload) over a period. Frequency merely distributes this workload. For a beginner, workload is low, and they will set new records possibly 2x per week. For an intermediate workload is increased and they might add weight to the bar weekly or thereabouts. For an advanced lifter workload will be higher still and new records set every 4-8 weeks.

Something like this:

Beginner: 3x5 performed 3x per week. 1 day is light. Weights are ramped to a top set i.e. 100, 115, 130. New records 2x per week on top set.

Intermediate: 5x5 performed 3x per week. Heavy/Light/Medium. Weights are ramped to a top set similar to first. New records set weekly on top set of 5.

Advanced: Periodized to allow for higher workload. 5x5 performed 3x per week. 2 Heavy and 1 Medium, Weights are constant set weight i.e. 315x5x5. This might be dropped to 2x per week with 1 heavy day and reps of 3x3 after the initial period (i.e. loading and deloading). New records every 4-8 weeks.

Thinking about tonnage in the core lifts as a proxy for workload. An intermediate and advanced lifter with exactly the same max lifts (rare) might have the intermediate using 30,000 lbs weekly or enough so that fatigue never really overtakes him and he can set new records weekly on a linear basis. The loading period for the advanced lifter might have 50,000 lbs per week - and he will likely fatigue from this in a few weeks and require a period of lower workload (volume lowered, frequency lowered, but intensity or weight on the bar can still be kept high - lots of ways to handle this but workload drops). Maybe workload is 20000lbs at this point. A frequent way people might do this is 3:1 ratio. So 50K loading and 20K deload in this example (which is pretty random by the way, don't go extrapolating all kinds of crap from it). What's the one thing you notice though, over 4 weeks you have 170K in workload (50K x 3 weeks + 20K x 1 week) vs. the linear 120K (30K x 4 weeks). Much higher average workload - how is this possible. Dual factor model or fitness/fatigue. Fitness and fatigue are separate and acrue and disipate at different rates. Fatigue can be disipated in 1/3rd the time of fitness i.e. you can handle a lot more work over a limited period (with a short period of rest) than you can running indefinitely without limit. This is why some people here might have gotten great results doing a ton of work over a few weeks and than as fatigue accrued it burned them out. If you want to better understand the dual factor model and how this is handled a good read is this: http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html

So anyway, this is probably way beyond what a lot of guys on here are doing. That said, this is pretty much how training is handled around the world in elite strength and athletics. There is more to training that picking some exercises, spreading them out in a 3 day split, training a lift 1x a week, and with no other thought or organization, going in, working hard, and hoping to get bigger or stronger for your efforts. This might work decently enough at the beginner level but optimality and organization plays a far bigger role further out and even for the beginner, getting this right will make a big, very noticable difference.

So - back to the original point. Anyone can handle whatever frequency they choose. It's a matter of workload over a period and the conditioning of the athelete. Anyone can squat 3x per week just as anyone can walk every day, you just can't do 10 sets of 10 to failure or some garbage like that or increase workload 300% instantly to try it. Same with walking every day, you can't do maximum sprints for hours every day and you can't take a couch potatoe and expect him to walk 15 miles without some issues.

I hope that helps illustrate some things as this is a pretty good thread and I imagine we are touching on stuff that most people on this board either never considered or never realized were part of training. Keep in mind, the most important thing is adding weight to the bar and getting your lifts up. Now, how to best go about that for a given lifter at a given point in time - now that's programing and training, suffice to say you want to make the fastest progression possible and workload is a factor in this process.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Protobuilder said:
1) ... But at the same time, it seems like DF is a superior training program/theory ...
That's what I thought when I first read about it, which is why I started out on the DF, even though I'd been lifting less than a year. I don't think I knew about the SF until a while later, or if I did, I considered it inferior. Now I realise they're both great programs, just suited to different points in someone's lifting career. SF will always be quicker whilst you can get away with those kinds of gains. When you can't, DF becomes necessary. I don't like categorising people into novice, beginner, intermediate, etc, because people attach emotions to them. Nobody with a year or two under their belt will think of themselves as a beginner. Ignore the names - if you can gain on the SF, then milk it for all it's worth.

Protobuilder said:
3) If you start to feel serious fatigue while doing the SF version, should you take a deload week or what? Glenn P. mentioned you should make small adjustments in your program to keep progress going . . . so if you're feeling really beat down after a while, should you follow Glenn's advice and tweak some variables (but keep the basic SF program) or should you deload for a week?
madcow already answered this, but I'll throw in my .02 cents. Deloading should happen when your lifts stall. If you're feeling fatigued, yet your lifts are still going up, then keep going! That feeling can't be overreaching, otherwise the lifts would have stalled. I like the idea of dropping back a few weeks and ramping up again when you stall as it's self-regulating. Hopefully the drop in intensity will be enough for a deload.

Protobuilder said:
4) [tied into 3d question] How do you know when it's time to finally make the jump to DF?
That's the bit I liked. If you keep going back a few weeks to ramp up again, each time changing something such as the number of heavy sets, you'll end up sometimes ramping up with more volume than others, so you'll eventually be doing DF without making a conscious jump to it.

Protobuilder said:
I mean, from what I understand, you shouldn't expect much progress if week after week you just keep working w/ near maximal weights, hoping that this will be the week when you can finally add 5 pounds and get your reps.
I didn't appreciate until recently that you can still get stronger using sub-maximal weights, so long as the progression is there. Hitting the same maximal weight week after week doesn't give you anything new to adapt to, but dropping down and increasing the weight back up again does.

Here's my progress chart from a few weeks ago:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5431516&postcount=265

I hit PRs around weeks 3-4 and stalled after setting new squat and bench PRs in week 14, so about 11 weeks progress. I'm currently on week 18, but the last 3 weeks I've been nursing a bad back :( Here's the beginning if you're intrested:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=413888
 
Madcow, how exactly can one judge how much workload they can actually handle without overtraining themselves? As I've stated before, I can't do an already brilliantly-designed program like the 5x5 right now since I have a fairly serious back injury which will plague me for at least 6 more months or so (according to the docs). I've designed a program for myself utilizing exercises like one-legged squats, weighted push-ups, weighted dips, weighted pullups, weighted diamond push-ups, etc. and have been trying very hard to fine-tune it using your geocities webpage as a resource to help me in my design. Well, this week, I was forced to deload by decreasing frequency to 2x a week and dropping the volume since I fried a few of my muscles.

Since I'm deloading, it's no biggie and, as I've learned, it's beneficial to have planned overload and planned deload periods. However, I've been lifting for less than a year and also know that dual-factor training is not something necessary for myself yet, or at least it shouldn't be part of my plan at the moment. Therefore, how exactly can I guage what sort of workload I can handle in order to have a continuous training plan? I have a backpack and weights and add weights every week to stimulate progressive overload, so that part is taken care of. As per Glenn's advice, I know I shouldn't be planning failure and, once failure is reached for a 2-week period, I need to ramp the weights back down and start progressively overloading again. Thanks to that, I have not been training to failure, but I nonetheless realized earlier this week that my muscles were fried. I haven't reached failure yet, but my muscles got overloaded anyways. Obviously, this tells me that my workload has ben way too heavy for me to handle without a deloading period.

Of course, I now realize my workload will have to be less to avoid dual-factor training, but how will I know what I can handle or will I just have to find that out myself over time?
 
Did some reading in anotherbutter's journal (roughly post 265 and on from there) . . .

Question -- if you stall, and drop back to do another ramp up as suggested, is should you change the set/rep scheme as well (e.g., 8x3 instead of 5x5) and hold the tonnage constant overall, or should you keep the basic set/rep format and just back off the weights, and then hope to ramp up and bust through the plateau?
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Protobuilder said:
Did some reading in anotherbutter's journal (roughly post 265 and on from there) . . .

Question -- if you stall, and drop back to do another ramp up as suggested, is should you change the set/rep scheme as well (e.g., 8x3 instead of 5x5) and hold the tonnage constant overall, or should you keep the basic set/rep format and just back off the weights, and then hope to ramp up and bust through the plateau?

Depends on what you've been doing in the past. The first time, just resetting and doing the same reps might be a decent idea. If you've done that back to back already and had little progression the 2nd time - don't do it again. Keeping workload constant might be an idea, but then again increasing the weight/intensity and lowering workload works too i.e. 4-5 sets of 3 rather than 8. You could even drop to triples and work on your best triple as you begin to stall on your 5x5. There's a lot of stuff you can do, even trying plateau buster methods like 20 rep squats or doing 5x5 with your best set of 5 and just getting all the reps out no matter how long it takes you. Like I said, training is art as well as science and this is where experience and a coach's eye comes in.
 
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