Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Absolutely, increased neural efficiency is probably the biggest. Most BBers or those training with similar BBing style programs have a massive margin for improvement here - probably years worth. For very experienced PLs or OLs these gains will come much slower as they've been working on this for the duration of their involvement in the sport.|D_J^B_J| said:
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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
The problem with that is that you now only have 75% of the volume on any given week and the load applied will be uneven. I imagine you could even it out to a degree by training every other day (still a decrease in volume but a bit less) but this will have you rotating your training days throughout the week for the course of the program. It's very hard to take a fully worked over canned program like these, change the number of days in the gym, and not make compromises.
Topside said:
The problem with that is that you now only have 75% of the volume on any given week and the load applied will be uneven. I imagine you could even it out to a degree by training every other day (still a decrease in volume but a bit less) but this will have you rotating your training days throughout the week for the course of the program. It's very hard to take a fully worked over canned program like these, change the number of days in the gym, and not make compromises.
blut wump
New member
I'm taking another attempt at a second run-through of the program. This time around I've made a couple of substitutions: for bent rows I'm doing power cleans from the floor and for Wednesday squats I'm doing wide-stance box squats to somewhere near parallel.
I've always liked cleans but never done them at a rate of 70-80 reps a week and they're killing my forearms and biceps but less each week. I never realised my form was so bad until doing this kind of volume. I also think that they're helping me a lot with my deadlifts. I've never felt so completely in control of a deadlift as I did in yesterday's session and I feel that the cleans, or, maybe, the box squats, have ironed out a weakness or two in my deads. I hope next week (week3) doesn't prove me wrong.
It only just occurred to me that the 5x5 program isn't too far removed from the Korte 3x3. Just a basic squat, press, pull three times a week until you drop with some chinups thrown in.
I've always liked cleans but never done them at a rate of 70-80 reps a week and they're killing my forearms and biceps but less each week. I never realised my form was so bad until doing this kind of volume. I also think that they're helping me a lot with my deadlifts. I've never felt so completely in control of a deadlift as I did in yesterday's session and I feel that the cleans, or, maybe, the box squats, have ironed out a weakness or two in my deads. I hope next week (week3) doesn't prove me wrong.
It only just occurred to me that the 5x5 program isn't too far removed from the Korte 3x3. Just a basic squat, press, pull three times a week until you drop with some chinups thrown in.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
The cleans shouldn't be hammering your bicepts. I'm thinking you are arming it too much. The 2nd pull should explode the weight up to where you can rack it on the clavicles. The only time one is pulling on the weight after explosion is to pull themselves under the bar to catch it lower and that just aides in accelerating you down rather than pulling the bar higher. If the weight gets too heavy you can always switch over to clean pulls and use enough weight to just perform a heavy accelerated shrug and make the bar weightless at the top. You'll likely want straps.
The more you pull the better. This is why I've always recommended other variants rather than just the dead as you'll be able to pull more often and with higher volume. The dead is just too hard for that unless someone is really weak in it. The box squats will absolutely help your dead. What's your ratio of box squat to full OLY squat? Conceivably your squatting load is lower this time if you use less weight so it's something worth calculating out.
Korte's 3x3 is damn hard and is really geared to someone that can accomodate a fair amount of volume. The 5x5 with the pyramid days and the subjective ramps rather than strict % allows people some extra margin. Plus, deadlifting 3x per week is really hard especially when it's done last. Have you ever done this program? It's worth giving a shot to for a training cycle but be prepared to suffer every workout. If you look at the Smolov you'll also find a lot in common with the 5x5 except that Smolov is even more squat focused and applies higher volume and strict percentages - it assumes you can fill in the gaps appropriately for your other lifts so it's not a true "canned program" like the others with the exception of the squats.
The cleans shouldn't be hammering your bicepts. I'm thinking you are arming it too much. The 2nd pull should explode the weight up to where you can rack it on the clavicles. The only time one is pulling on the weight after explosion is to pull themselves under the bar to catch it lower and that just aides in accelerating you down rather than pulling the bar higher. If the weight gets too heavy you can always switch over to clean pulls and use enough weight to just perform a heavy accelerated shrug and make the bar weightless at the top. You'll likely want straps.
The more you pull the better. This is why I've always recommended other variants rather than just the dead as you'll be able to pull more often and with higher volume. The dead is just too hard for that unless someone is really weak in it. The box squats will absolutely help your dead. What's your ratio of box squat to full OLY squat? Conceivably your squatting load is lower this time if you use less weight so it's something worth calculating out.
Korte's 3x3 is damn hard and is really geared to someone that can accomodate a fair amount of volume. The 5x5 with the pyramid days and the subjective ramps rather than strict % allows people some extra margin. Plus, deadlifting 3x per week is really hard especially when it's done last. Have you ever done this program? It's worth giving a shot to for a training cycle but be prepared to suffer every workout. If you look at the Smolov you'll also find a lot in common with the 5x5 except that Smolov is even more squat focused and applies higher volume and strict percentages - it assumes you can fill in the gaps appropriately for your other lifts so it's not a true "canned program" like the others with the exception of the squats.
blut wump
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I was thinking the same with respect to the load on my biceps. The latest PurePowermag has a decent section on cleans and I'm planning to take it into the gym with me tomorrow and make a huge effort to get closer to good form.
I'm only doing the box squats as replacement for the light Wednesday squats and I'm using more weight than I would have used for the light squats. The volume aspect did occur to me but more as a concern of doing overmuch. They seem to be hitting my glutes and hamstrings much more than normal squats which was one big reason for trying them. I want a better deadlift and I'm hoping to finish this run of the program with a deadlift in the 400-450 range.
I've never done the Korte 3x3. I remember the first time I saw it and it does appeal to me. I intend to do either the Korte or Smolov before this year is out. Unless I decide that I must work on my squats, though, it's likely to be the Korte. I'll note your warnings on the volume and maybe I'll need to work a bit on my GPP beforehand and also nail down my 1RM weights.
I was thinking the same with respect to the load on my biceps. The latest PurePowermag has a decent section on cleans and I'm planning to take it into the gym with me tomorrow and make a huge effort to get closer to good form.
I'm only doing the box squats as replacement for the light Wednesday squats and I'm using more weight than I would have used for the light squats. The volume aspect did occur to me but more as a concern of doing overmuch. They seem to be hitting my glutes and hamstrings much more than normal squats which was one big reason for trying them. I want a better deadlift and I'm hoping to finish this run of the program with a deadlift in the 400-450 range.
I've never done the Korte 3x3. I remember the first time I saw it and it does appeal to me. I intend to do either the Korte or Smolov before this year is out. Unless I decide that I must work on my squats, though, it's likely to be the Korte. I'll note your warnings on the volume and maybe I'll need to work a bit on my GPP beforehand and also nail down my 1RM weights.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
We'll see. What you did was significantly lower total volume on the lift to raise intensity. Ideally the best time to do that would have been at the end of the 3x3 phase and scale everything down even more to hit some heavy doubles and singles a few weeks out. You sort of get 2 waves of volume with volume in each successive wave decreasing significantly (although total load rising inside each wave) and intensity increasing. This would have given you the 3rd wave - or actually a 3rd mesocycle would be the way to look at it.
It's not really going to have a major impact one way or another but ideally, this is how you'd want to deal with it. There is just a lot more total load in 3x3 than 1x3, the incremental extra weight can't compensate for all the volume at the slightly lower weight.
TheOak84 said:
We'll see. What you did was significantly lower total volume on the lift to raise intensity. Ideally the best time to do that would have been at the end of the 3x3 phase and scale everything down even more to hit some heavy doubles and singles a few weeks out. You sort of get 2 waves of volume with volume in each successive wave decreasing significantly (although total load rising inside each wave) and intensity increasing. This would have given you the 3rd wave - or actually a 3rd mesocycle would be the way to look at it.
It's not really going to have a major impact one way or another but ideally, this is how you'd want to deal with it. There is just a lot more total load in 3x3 than 1x3, the incremental extra weight can't compensate for all the volume at the slightly lower weight.
Honestly, there's so much else going on and most people are so new to this type of training that the difference it makes is going to be neither here nor there so don't sweat it. It's just worth explaining and illustrating so that people can incorporate this stuff properly (of course you could also taper the entire volume over the 2nd mesocycle and not peak the 3x3 stuff instead winding up at singles and doubles without a separate third wave/mesocycle).
Extra_Strong
Well-known member
ok I know i would probably find everyting is this long ass thread .. ha ha but i read about 15pages and am tired 
but lets see if i got it right...
ok.. week 1-4 prep work .. i think that is what you called it..
I will be doing Squat, Bench, P/C instead of rows..
Monday little warm up then 5 sets of 5 with the same weight if i get all 25 reps.
............I will move up in weight 5lbs on my next Monday workout of 5x5 and I plan to do this with all lifts on monday.
Wednesday I will take off about 15% of the weight and do the same thing just will be more on the light side but i will make up for it with intesatly. Going for speed and explosivness.
Friday I will do 5 X 5 but i will start out will a really light weight and pyramid up till i get to a max weight that will acually be the heaviest 1 singal set of the week.
like say i am working up to 315 for 5 i will start with
The bar for 10-20 warm up.. practice my speed.
1st set 135 for 5
2nd set 185 for 5
3rd set 245 for 5
4th set 285 for 5
5th the one i was builiding to 315 for 5
do that for 4 weeks..
then deload. 1 week ( or the 5th week)
do monday 3x3 warm up
and o 3 x3 with as much as i can do aiming for 9 total reps of the same weight.
trying to get them all if i do with all exercises..
Thursday pyrimid up to a final heavy set of 3.
then do everything just like the 1st 4 weeks ...
but it will be 3x3 3 times a week...
monday 3x3 with same weight
wed. 15% less 3x3 all same weight.
Fri. pyrimid 3sets 3reps on 3rd set should be heavier than the weight used monday.
and i will do this for 4 weeks..
..........????? do i have it all correct so far.. If i am just sticking to the big 3 and no extra work..???
and when would i be working up to .. a final 1 rep to check my 1rep max?? for all lifts... how would I go about that... on the last week on friday.. do 3x3 pyramid .. but go ahead to move up to a 1 rep or a single....
OK... fill in the blanks if you would... I did read the bill starr book.. but the work out was a little more simple.. this seems a little bit more of exciting version..
I will take any info.. thanks..
but lets see if i got it right...ok.. week 1-4 prep work .. i think that is what you called it..
I will be doing Squat, Bench, P/C instead of rows..
Monday little warm up then 5 sets of 5 with the same weight if i get all 25 reps.
............I will move up in weight 5lbs on my next Monday workout of 5x5 and I plan to do this with all lifts on monday.
Wednesday I will take off about 15% of the weight and do the same thing just will be more on the light side but i will make up for it with intesatly. Going for speed and explosivness.
Friday I will do 5 X 5 but i will start out will a really light weight and pyramid up till i get to a max weight that will acually be the heaviest 1 singal set of the week.
like say i am working up to 315 for 5 i will start with
The bar for 10-20 warm up.. practice my speed.
1st set 135 for 5
2nd set 185 for 5
3rd set 245 for 5
4th set 285 for 5
5th the one i was builiding to 315 for 5
do that for 4 weeks..
then deload. 1 week ( or the 5th week)
do monday 3x3 warm up
and o 3 x3 with as much as i can do aiming for 9 total reps of the same weight.
trying to get them all if i do
with all exercises..Thursday pyrimid up to a final heavy set of 3.
then do everything just like the 1st 4 weeks ...
but it will be 3x3 3 times a week...
monday 3x3 with same weight
wed. 15% less 3x3 all same weight.
Fri. pyrimid 3sets 3reps on 3rd set should be heavier than the weight used monday.
and i will do this for 4 weeks..
..........????? do i have it all correct so far.. If i am just sticking to the big 3 and no extra work..???
and when would i be working up to .. a final 1 rep to check my 1rep max?? for all lifts... how would I go about that... on the last week on friday.. do 3x3 pyramid .. but go ahead to move up to a 1 rep or a single....
OK... fill in the blanks if you would... I did read the bill starr book.. but the work out was a little more simple.. this seems a little bit more of exciting version..
I will take any info.. thanks..
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