Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[Madcow2]

No difference of opinion at all - just a difference in framework. You are talking about a matter of adding balance and tweaking muscular development for aesthetics. This program is concerned with pure development and maximizing hypertrophy. For that, it's barbells. Reading the overwhelming majority of BBing threads I get the feeling people would rather have 20 extra pounds of LBM and then deal with tweaking their physique vs. fixing a few nitpicks (fixable ones not reshaping genetics) and being left with the task of adding 20 extra pounds. This is why breaking longer periods into Meso and microcycles is a good idea - give yourself a period to work on aesthetic details or weak points in your lifts with assistance work or variations. Then go back to bulking. I'll leave minor aesthetic adjustment for others to deal with on their own.

 

[cwpick]

I am new to this site and have spent all day reviewing this thread, going over it twice. This is similar to programs I had playing football. In football we trained for strength and worried little about muscle mass. I assume because of the cardio we were performing along with a poor diet that muscle mass (as far as BB's are concerned) did not seem to be there. Strength has never been a problem for me but I have never been able to have the look of a BB. Granted I have just started a proper diet and have spent the last month trying to understand that.

I have tried the one body part a week thing and have never got the results i wanted. My strength is not where it was and my overall mass is not much better. I am hoping this program along with a proper diet gives me some much wanted results. I always saw this type of program as strength training and less of a mass builder. I guess I am one of the many who have fell into the hype of what is suppose to be the right way to lift like a BBR. I am glad to see that you are a proBBr and that this program works for you.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I am glad to see that you are a proBBr and that this program works for you.

I'm not a BBer no less a professional BBer. There are some posts of mine a few pages ago that should provide insite into what I think of the majority of programs in use by the pros in that sport. Let's just say that if you take a horrid training stimulus that wouldn't grow a high school kid and magnify it with enough anabolics then combine that with good diet, great genetics, and a fair amount of discipline - you can be a pro BBer. Of course, without the drugs it ain't pretty as most of them train no better than many of the members running around the board wondering why they can't gain weight. My goal is to help people interested in gaining muscle put it on without drugs or maximize their gains if they choose to use anyway (meaning get more LBM from a given dosage or use a lower dosage and get the same LBM increase). The structure of a good stimulus is a good stimulus regardless of how one enhances one's response and tolerance.

This program may look similar to what you saw in high school because the base structure is right out of Bill Starr's book 'Only the Strongest Shall Survive' the entire premise of which is football. Even the best program won't add muscle to you without a caloric excess (or your excess currently goes to maintaining fat) and some decent rest. In-season and pre-season this gets a bit difficult to come by. While the importance of diet is greatly exagerated in BBing (a reasonable diet is good enough to get gains from a good program and the best diet won't put a lot of weight on someone using a shitty program) it is an important factor. I just see way too many young kids counting every gram of food and then training to failure, using machines, and hitting each bodypart once per week with an array of dog shit exercises and no plan other than to go in and work hard.

The major difference in this program is the underlying dual factor methodology consisting of loading and deloading periods. This is a supperior stimulus for any experienced lifter no matter what their goal is whether it is adding LBM for BBing purposes, moving up a weight class in wrestling, or whatever. A page or so back is a quote from Glenn Pendlay regarding programs he and Mark Ripptoe use for high school lifters. They routinely get 30-40lbs of gain out of a typical HS athlete in 6 months. This one is a bit beyond the beginner lifter but the premise and structure are exactly the same (a dual factor program is more suited to an experienced lifter while a single factor or supercompensation style program work very well when run correctly by beginners).

 

[JKurz1]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I'm not a BBer no less a professional BBer. There are some posts of mine a few pages ago that should provide insite into what I think of the majority of programs in use by the pros in that sport. Let's just say that if you take a horrid training stimulus that wouldn't grow a high school kid and magnify it with enough anabolics then combine that with good diet, great genetics, and a fair amount of discipline - you can be a pro BBer. Of course, without the drugs it ain't pretty as most of them train no better than many of the members running around the board wondering why they can't gain weight. My goal is to help people interested in gaining muscle put it on without drugs or maximize their gains if they choose to use anyway (meaning get more LBM from a given dosage or use a lower dosage and get the same LBM increase). The structure of a good stimulus is a good stimulus regardless of how one enhances one's response and tolerance.

This program may look similar to what you saw in high school because the base structure is right out of Bill Starr's book 'Only the Strongest Shall Survive' the entire premise of which is football. Even the best program won't add muscle to you without a caloric excess (or your excess currently goes to maintaining fat) and some decent rest. In-season and pre-season this gets a bit difficult to come by. While the importance of diet is greatly exagerated in BBing (a reasonable diet is good enough to get gains from a good program and the best diet won't put a lot of weight on someone using a shitty program) it is an important factor. I just see way too many young kids counting every gram of food and then training to failure, using machines, and hitting each bodypart once per week with an array of dog shit exercises and no plan other than to go in and work hard.

The major difference in this program is the underlying dual factor methodology consisting of loading and deloading periods. This is a supperior stimulus for any experienced lifter no matter what their goal is whether it is adding LBM for BBing purposes, moving up a weight class in wrestling, or whatever. A page or so back is a quote from Glenn Pendlay regarding programs he and Mark Ripptoe use for high school lifters. They routinely get 30-40lbs of gain out of a typical HS athlete in 6 months. This one is a bit beyond the beginner lifter but the premise and structure are exactly the same (a dual factor program is more suited to an experienced lifter while a single factor or supercompensation style program work very well when run correctly by beginners).

point well taken.......and I can tell this is optiomal for sheer strength.....right now, my main goal is mass......as you put it, asthentically pleasing results....very knowledgeable bro and props once again......

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

Um, if your main goal is mass than this is the perfect program for you. For strength I'd say from my own experience so far it's very good too(the best I've used), but even better for mass gains.

 

[cwpick]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I'm not a BBer no less a professional BBer. There are some posts of mine a few pages ago that should provide insite into what I think of the majority of programs in use by the pros in that sport. Let's just say that if you take a horrid training stimulus that wouldn't grow a high school kid and magnify it with enough anabolics then combine that with good diet, great genetics, and a fair amount of discipline - you can be a pro BBer. Of course, without the drugs it ain't pretty as most of them train no better than many of the members running around the board wondering why they can't gain weight. My goal is to help people interested in gaining muscle put it on without drugs or maximize their gains if they choose to use anyway (meaning get more LBM from a given dosage or use a lower dosage and get the same LBM increase). The structure of a good stimulus is a good stimulus regardless of how one enhances one's response and tolerance.

This program may look similar to what you saw in high school because the base structure is right out of Bill Starr's book 'Only the Strongest Shall Survive' the entire premise of which is football. Even the best program won't add muscle to you without a caloric excess (or your excess currently goes to maintaining fat) and some decent rest. In-season and pre-season this gets a bit difficult to come by. While the importance of diet is greatly exagerated in BBing (a reasonable diet is good enough to get gains from a good program and the best diet won't put a lot of weight on someone using a shitty program) it is an important factor. I just see way too many young kids counting every gram of food and then training to failure, using machines, and hitting each bodypart once per week with an array of dog shit exercises and no plan other than to go in and work hard.

The major difference in this program is the underlying dual factor methodology consisting of loading and deloading periods. This is a supperior stimulus for any experienced lifter no matter what their goal is whether it is adding LBM for BBing purposes, moving up a weight class in wrestling, or whatever. A page or so back is a quote from Glenn Pendlay regarding programs he and Mark Ripptoe use for high school lifters. They routinely get 30-40lbs of gain out of a typical HS athlete in 6 months. This one is a bit beyond the beginner lifter but the premise and structure are exactly the same (a dual factor program is more suited to an experienced lifter while a single factor or supercompensation style program work very well when run correctly by beginners).

I am far removed from high school football and actually was referring to the college level which I am far removed from that as well. As I said earlier I am new to the site and I guess misunderstood the Pro Bodybuilder under the Avatar. Do you know any BBer that have used this program and have received gains. I am just a guy who enjoys lifting and like most a little vain. I don't want to compete but I want to look the best that I can without taking the next step into gear. Will this program give me the body of a football player or give me the body of a BBer as long as a good diet is in order. Regardless i am going to try it out and probably do it back to back and see how it goes. I have been lifting for years and probably know less than people who have trained in half the time. I trained for football and after that to stay in shape. Over the last few years have got back into it without seeing the gains i wanted. But this was through fault of my own, going through the motions, no diet, just getting by. I hope this program will get me back on track.

 

[Madcow2]

Building muscle is building muscle. The body of a BBer compared to the body of a football player is generally a matter of bodyfat levels, genetics (small joints/small waist/proportionality), and to a degree some mild focus on addressing aesthetics. I'll also throw in that a pro BBer is a human chemistry set using multiple magnitudes the amount of anabolics not to mention other related drugs.

Building muscle is building muscle. Do not look to proBBers advice on training - read back a few pages, I did a long post on this. Natural and drugged lifters alike have gotten great results with this program. I honestly do not know of anything that consistently produces more hypertrophy. So my advice would be to read everything on the first page - specifically the links on dual factor theory, and then give it a try.

 

[massm]

I've failed at this kind of progressive overload approach on many occasions, notably HST. My problem is although my calculations were always on point regarding 1RM values and calculating the weights, I found myself reaching failure way too early into the program. Perhaps this can be due to my body being primary fast-twitch fibers, and thus my repetitions were falling short during beginning weeks while others seem to have no problems.

I really like the design of this program though, I've always been an advocate of sticking to the core basics. So I started this program this week, my only change was tweaking the first 4 weeks a bit. Instead of 4 weeks, I have moved the first portion to 5 weeks, utilizing lighter weights in the first week than I would have if I crunched the numbers aiming for maximal weights at week 4. This week is pretty much to get a better handle on my body and my capabilities so I do fulfill my PRs at the proper times, just a week behind schedule. My training has been based around core movements for over 8 years, but after reading this thread I couldn't remember the last time I took on a program that didn't continually aim for failure every workout -- besides that of 10x10 GVT-type programs advocated by Poliquin which I usually ran into similar problems with overestimating my starting weight anyhow.

Anyway, this was a great thread to read through and I'm excited to work through this program. Madcow, I appreciate your contribution here more than you can imagine, you've given me insight when I egotistically thought I knew it all when it came to training theory.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I've failed at this kind of progressive overload approach on many occasions, notably HST. My problem is although my calculations were always on point regarding 1RM values and calculating the weights, I found myself reaching failure way too early into the program. Perhaps this can be due to my body being primary fast-twitch fibers, and thus my repetitions were falling short during beginning weeks while others seem to have no problems.

I really like the design of this program though, I've always been an advocate of sticking to the core basics. So I started this program this week, my only change was tweaking the first 4 weeks a bit. Instead of 4 weeks, I have moved the first portion to 5 weeks, utilizing lighter weights in the first week than I would have if I crunched the numbers aiming for maximal weights at week 4. This week is pretty much to get a better handle on my body and my capabilities so I do fulfill my PRs at the proper times, just a week behind schedule. My training has been based around core movements for over 8 years, but after reading this thread I couldn't remember the last time I took on a program that didn't continually aim for failure every workout -- besides that of 10x10 GVT-type programs advocated by Poliquin which I usually ran into similar problems with overestimating my starting weight anyhow.

Anyway, this was a great thread to read through and I'm excited to work through this program. Madcow, I appreciate your contribution here more than you can imagine, you've given me insight when I egotistically thought I knew it all when it came to training theory.

You are doing it the right way. The absolute most common error is starting too high and unfortunately as you know, this kills this type program. Beginners to this training or someone after a layoff can easily do 6 weeks in the initial phase, just start light and build incrementally. Also, have weekly targets written down but reevaluate week to week and looking forward based upon your completed workouts. This can be really beneficial to someone who isn't used to this type of training program. Of course starting too light might not be 100% optimal but guaranteeing yourself 80-85% out of the program vs. leaving a big chance at 0% and blowing it up is a good hedge to me.

Also, you are right in that some people are better at reps while others are better at max weights. Granted training style can affect this but there is a genetic component at the core.

Lots of good training info running around. Some good sources and books here:http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3
I can also recommend http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/ for a good forum on training. Anyway, best of luck, thanks for the kind words, I have to run out.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

If genetics do play a part in what you're better at, higher reps or maximal attempts, how could one go about figuring out where they stand?