Bill Starr Question

[Andalite]

hi everyone.

ive been a member here for a long time but i dont post much.

im no beginner to weightlifting. ive been lifting for 3 years but i consider myself to be a beginner to curb ego problems

anyways, i post a lot on intensemuscle.com...im on dc training right now and im doign great..

but i dont want to get stuck on just one type of program for so long...ive been dc'ing for the last 4 months...come janurary (6 monhts of dc) i want to switch things up till may. i want to do bill starr's 5x5 program. but i have shoulder issues (lose shoulders) and i cant bench properly because of my phobia. i have an incline bench of 205x1 but a flat of 185x1.

so i cant do the simple 5x5 laid out because im too damn afraid.

but i came across this version of bill's program:

Beginner's Strength Program by Bill Starr
From the Article "The Forgotten Factor: Strength" in Robert Kenndey's REPS! Magazine, Winter 2006 Edition, Page 104

Monday (Heavy Day)

Back Squats: 5 x 5 ramping to limit
Bench Press: 5 x 5 ramping to limit
Deadlifts: 5 x 5 ramping to limit or Bent-Over Rows: 5 x 5 ramping to limit
Incline Dumbell Press: 2 x 20
Calf Raises: 3 x 30

Wednesday (Light Day)

Back Squats: 5 x 5 using 50 lbs less than Monday or Lunges: 4 x 6 ramping to limit
Good Mornings: 4 x 10 or Stiff-Leg Deadlifts: 4 x 10
Standing Overhead Press: 5 x 5 ramping to limit
Dips: When you can do 20 reps, start adding weight and drop the reps back to 8
Curls: 3 x 15

Friday (Medium Day)

Back Squats: 5 x 5 using 20 lbs less than Monday
Incline Bench Press: 5 x 5 ramping to limit
Shrugs: 5 x 5 ramping to limit or Clean High Pulls 5 x 5 ramping to limit
Straight Arm Pullovers: 2 x 20
Chins: 4 sets to failure

You can choose either of the optional back exercises and stick with them or set them up as follows and alternate:

Week A: Deadlifts, Good Mornings, Shrugs

Week B: Bent-Over Rows, Stiff-Leg Deadlifts, Clean High Pulls

After two or three weeks, you can add in back-off sets on all of the pressing exercises, squats, and lunges. No back-offs for any back movement. Should you want to work more on any back exercise, do another top-end set.

If you get 5 reps on your top set, add weight next week.

i wanted to ask if there is a link any more of these kinds of bill starr programs. can someone please help me?

i thought of doing a lower-volume westside, but westside is for REALLY advanced people and i dont think i can last out on. which is why i thought of this.

if ANYONE can help me with this please please let me know.

thanks

Andalite

EDIT: i forgot to mention my other stats

im 5'7 @ 180 lbs (planning on hitting 185 by new year's)
max dead = 355x1
max a2g squat = 310x1
max bench = 185x1
max incline bench = 205x1
max oh press = 135x2

experience with all the core lifts = 10 months

thanks

 

[ZGzaZ]

Why are you afraid to do flats?

 

[Andalite]

Why are you afraid to do flats?

i dont know...its just that every time i go under the bar i panic. i used to be confident of them, but after my shoulders got ripped out in my judo green-belt tournament a few months ago ive become shit scared of this. and im genuiney REALLY bad at bench pressing. i press PB style - not BB. but i just cant cross 185. i dont know why. which is why i want to do them no doubt, but just not more than 1x a week...i dont know sir, im just scared of them.

 

[ZGzaZ]

If you genuinely want to improve on them, and don't have an injury that limits you from doing them, then you need to do them 2x per week like Starr's program suggests.

I think if you get a spotter, and get under there for 2x a week, for a few weeks, you'll get over your fear of it and be fine! Just do it bro! No other way to get over it then to get under the bar....and no way to improve your bench other than to bench.

There's more shoulder involvement in inclines, if it's your shoulder, why are you not afraid to do those?

 

[Andalite]

hmm...u got a point...but i feel comfortable doing inclines....flat makes me feel DAMN uncomfortable.

ok, ill do flats...il ltry....

but, i want to know: are there any more programs like the one i mentioned above?

 

[ZGzaZ]

I do the intermediate program listed on this page:

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

Best of luck doing flats, after 6 or so weeks, you'll forget you were ever afraid.

 

[Czar87]

How it discolated ?
I myself have sprained my shoulder but never discolated, i did bjj but quit cause everytime i went in to train i thought about the shoulder and afraid of bustin it up =)

 

[enigma4dub]

just be ultra conservative with weight selection. i also suggest continual improvement in form. vid yourself and post for critique. also read the sticky in the powerlifting forum. and heres another vote for frequency, the more you bench the better you will get.

 

[Andalite]

How it discolated ?
I myself have sprained my shoulder but never discolated, i did bjj but quit cause everytime i went in to train i thought about the shoulder and afraid of bustin it up =)

i had disloacations during a judo match last year. then this year (in june) i was doing seated military presses when i happened to put the dumbbell a bit to far behind and then my shoulder popped out. as for my left shoulder, i was doing rehab for my risght shoulder when i was swimming and my left shoulder popped out in the pool.

so i have lose shoulders.

 

[Lifting N Tx]

Shoulders seem to be a problem area for many. I haven't had problems, but I've become convinced that preventative medicine is the way to go. Some suggestions, based on what I've read in various places...

1) Strengthen the shoulder in all planes of motion...horizontal pulling and push (like rows and bench presses), vertical pulling and pushing (such as chins and military presses). Many guys are a lot stronger on bench presses than rows, pull downs, military, etc. To some degree this may be natural but mostly due to underemphasis on other exercises relative to bench press.

2) Do rotator cuff exercises just as religiously as your regular workouts. They're really important for shoulder stability.

3) If something is causing pain, switch exercises, back off the weight or whatever until the pain stops.

I'm not a shoulder expert and can't speak to your particular injury, but I think those are good general suggestions.

Oh, also, PL type bench presses where your elbows are more like 45 degrees out are easier on the shoulders than BBer type benches with the elbows way wide.

 

[Protobuilder]

Don't you post on BB.com? Your name seems familiar.

There are tons of "variations" of 5x5 programs. Spend some time on madcow's geocities site and read EVERYTHING. once you grasp the bigger picture, you'll see just how many variations are possible. It's linked in the training vault sticky above.

 

[Andalite]

Shoulders seem to be a problem area for many. I haven't had problems, but I've become convinced that preventative medicine is the way to go. Some suggestions, based on what I've read in various places...

1) Strengthen the shoulder in all planes of motion...horizontal pulling and push (like rows and bench presses), vertical pulling and pushing (such as chins and military presses). Many guys are a lot stronger on bench presses than rows, pull downs, military, etc. To some degree this may be natural but mostly due to underemphasis on other exercises relative to bench press.

2) Do rotator cuff exercises just as religiously as your regular workouts. They're really important for shoulder stability.

3) If something is causing pain, switch exercises, back off the weight or whatever until the pain stops.

I'm not a shoulder expert and can't speak to your particular injury, but I think those are good general suggestions.

Oh, also, PL type bench presses where your elbows are more like 45 degrees out are easier on the shoulders than BBer type benches with the elbows way wide.

thanks for all the tips....i know a lot of it already....but thanks noentheless....and ur right BB style bencing hurt my shoulder all the more!

Don't you post on BB.com? Your name seems familiar.

yessir i do...actually, i know u from bb.net because im a good friend of 0311

There are tons of "variations" of 5x5 programs. Spend some time on madcow's geocities site and read EVERYTHING. once you grasp the bigger picture, you'll see just how many variations are possible. It's linked in the training vault sticky above.

do u know where u can find other variations of Bill Starr's program?? any links would be great..i know of the SF and DF programs on madcow's site, but im referring to the other variations like the one i posted above.

 

[BiggT]

You really don't need to dig up variations if you can read between the lines. If your shoulder allows you to incline, I don't see how flats are a problem, but for whatever reason, if you don't want to train flats you don't have to, lol.....just sub in a press to train progressively ......

Mon: Push Press.....Wed: Dips.....Fri. Incline

Mon: Incline.....Wed OHP.....Fri: Incline

Mon: Decline....Wed Push Press....Fri Incline

I can go on all day, the possibilities are endless....just read through the MC2 site, and if you can make your own substitutions, then reread it because you aren't grasping it the way it was intended to be understood.

 

[Andalite]

You really don't need to dig up variations if you can read between the lines. If your shoulder allows you to incline, I don't see how flats are a problem, but for whatever reason, if you don't want to train flats you don't have to, lol.....just sub in a press to train progressively ......

dude: i CAN do flat...i just dont LIKE to do flat...but i get ur point

Mon: Push Press.....Wed: Dips.....Fri. Incline

Mon: Incline.....Wed OHP.....Fri: Incline

Mon: Decline....Wed Push Press....Fri Incline

hmm...interesting

I can go on all day, the possibilities are endless....just read through the MC2 site, and if you can make your own substitutions, then reread it because you aren't grasping it the way it was intended to be understood.

i read the site and i read what pendlay wrote regarding this too..

but i am unable to figure out how to change the set rep scheme, etc and the exercise selection....

thanks for the help

Andalite

 

[Lifting N Tx]

You really don't need to dig up variations if you can read between the lines.

What he said.

For an example of the thought process behind the two Madcow routines that should help you to "read between the lines", I like this post where Madcow has a couple of quotes from Glenn Pendlay.

 

[Andalite]

What he said.

For an example of the thought process behind the two Madcow routines that should help you to "read between the lines", I like this post where Madcow has a couple of quotes from Glenn Pendlay.

those quotes are priceless...i think i can come up with a great 5x5 program using that...thanks

 

[Protobuilder]

I thought your name looked familiar. I remember it b/c your posts were some of the few that made sense on BB.com. LoL Tell 311 I said hey. I should stop by his site more frequently.

J.V. Askem has some 5x5 variations memorialized on Jesse Marunde's site in the articles section. www.marunde-muscle.com

There's a 5x5 article on T-nation as well that goes over quite a few variations. I don't have the link but you can search on there and find the article.

Basically, once you get the big picture, it's all gravy. Squat, press, pull. Several times a week. Focus on movmeents not bodyparts. Plan out a logical progression and strive to add weight consistenly. Gear everything around adding poundage to a handful of lifts. That's it.

For chest, you could try DB presses or low incline rather than flats.

 

[Andalite]

I thought your name looked familiar. I remember it b/c your posts were some of the few that made sense on BB.com.

thanks for those kind words sir...yes, i do have some stickies on bb.com, but i dont post there so much anymore....im tired of answering newbie questions, etc...im now a supermod on another website so i dont really feel like posting on bb.com so much..i do post there in my journal and a few other ppls journals though

Tell 311 I said hey. I should stop by his site more frequently.

u should...bb.net is great

J.V. Askem has some 5x5 variations memorialized on Jesse Marunde's site in the articles section. www.marunde-muscle.com

There's a 5x5 article on T-nation as well that goes over quite a few variations. I don't have the link but you can search on there and find the article.

thanks sir

Basically, once you get the big picture, it's all gravy. Squat, press, pull. Several times a week. Focus on movmeents not bodyparts. Plan out a logical progression and strive to add weight consistenly. Gear everything around adding poundage to a handful of lifts. That's it.

For chest, you could try DB presses or low incline rather than flats.

u got a pm bro mine

 

[Yips]

Not meaning to hijack this thread or anything, but I am currently adhering to the Mark Rippetoe (3 x 5 starting strength program) and am seeing some good strength gains.

Is the program listed above a good segway into the Bill Starr intermediate 5 x 5 program? Or should I go straight ahead and follow the intermediate program upon stagnating with the 3 x 5 program?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Andalite]

Not meaning to hijack this thread or anything, but I am currently adhering to the Mark Rippetoe (3 x 5 starting strength program) and am seeing some good strength gains.

that program is GREAT. i added 250 lbs to my core lifts in 8 weeks. it is a REALLY good program. if u need help in it let me know. i was an intermediate lifter when i did the program, so it wasnt possible for me to add 5 lbs to the bar everytime i hit the gym. but i found a way to work around that. one important tip is that use fascia stretches for ur legs ever alternate session. it will pay off in recovery and muscle memory along with hypertrophy.

Is the program listed above a good segway into the Bill Starr intermediate 5 x 5 program? Or should I go straight ahead and follow the intermediate program upon stagnating with the 3 x 5 program?

im not sure what u mean. if u are asking whether u should do 5x5 after mark's program then i agree with u. the above program i posted is a variation of bill's program...u can do that because it too is a 5x5 program...

peace

Andalite