Best alternative to ALCOHOL when 'ON'???

[deltreefitness]

WEll ,so does the red dawn shit work or not?

I think he just ordered it. I'm going to go ahead and bet that it doesn't do shit accept for give a speedy, stimulant feeling. Base on the list of ingredients it could not be anything like MDMA.

 

[deltreefitness]

The next time he goes out, he takes two doses. Then it just builds up from there. That's why shit like this is illegal, because people use it for the wrong reasons. Now, if these claims are true about it being potentially a helpful drug, then great.

The claims are true. That is great and tradgic at the same time.

Gamma-hydroxybutyric acid (GHB) is a natural substance found in many foods, and is both a precursor and metabolite of the amino acid GABA (see SDN v4n7p4). One might think, given its nutrient derivation, that GHB would be accepted as just another food supplement in the over-the-counter health food market. While that may once have been the case, it certainly isn’t the way GHB is currently perceived by the FDA.

Prior to 1994, the FDA had the power to arbitrarily classify almost anything as a drug. The FDA’s definition of a drug included 1) non-food items “intended to affect the structure or function of the body of man or other animals,” and 2) items intended to “treat, cure, mitigate or prevent” disease. The category of “food supplements” did not then exist. In the eyes of the FDA, food supplements could be classified in many different ways: as drugs, food additives, or even adulterants. By their ridiculously broad definition, almost anything and everything could be considered a drug, including water, exercise, sports equipment, classical music, or sunlight — all of which can either affect the structure or function of the body, or treat or prevent disease.

Although these arbitrary and capricious powers of the FDA to label nutritional supplements as food preservatives and adulterants were repeatedly ruled improper and illegal in a number of court decisions, the agency failed to restrain its actions. Finally, attempts to rein in this rogue Federal agency culminated in the passage of the Dietary Supplement Health & Education Act of 1994 (DSH&EA), wherein those powers were severely restricted. With the passage of DSH&EA, the FDA was absolutely prohibited from classifying nutrients as food preservatives or adulterants. Furthermore, they were permitted to remove food supplements from the market only if there was a threat to public health involved. Any such removals would require convening a set of public hearings to review the decision, at which public input would be accepted, all testimony would be open, and the proceedings would be published in the Federal Register. Never before had the internal decision-making process of the FDA been exposed to public scrutiny. Significantly, the FDA has so far avoided any decisions that would require such exposure.

In November, 1990, 4 years prior to the DSH&EA, the FDA issued a national press release announcing that GHB was a drug. Instead of following formal regulatory procedures for assigning a status to GHB, the FDA took the unusual (and legally unsanctioned) step of announcing their decision in a press release! That’s all — a press release! Based on this press release, agents of the FDA started investigating, arresting and prosecuting many health food store owners and distributors for selling an “unapproved new drug” (i.e., GHB). Some people were promised lenient treatment if they would testify against others (the “big fish”). Some of these people went to prison, and are now branded as “convicted felons” — unable to vote, own firearms, or enjoy many of the other rights of free citizens. We will probably never know what process was followed in this decision. However, the FDA’s disdain for following even their own rules and regulations had become routine operating procedure.

At a recent court case at which I [WD] testified as an expert witness regarding the safety of GHB, it became evident that the government representatives in this case (prosecutors, FDA agents and FDA expert witnesses) either didn’t know what they were talking about regarding GHB (which I have a hard time believing) or were deliberately lying (the only reasonable alternative).

In previous, similar GHB cases, the prosecution (the Justice Department) attempted to portray GHB as a Schedule I controlled substance (a drug that has no medical uses, with a strong potential for addiction and abuse — like heroin). Federal prosecutors withheld knowledge from the defense of the existence of a number of Investigational New Drug Applications (INDs) for GHB on the rationale that they “contained no relevant information.” Years later, after a number of people had spent considerable time in prison, higher courts ruled against the withholding of these INDs, overturned many of the GHB convictions, and forced the FDA to submit copies of all INDs to the courts for inclusion in still-pending trials, or re-trial of overturned cases.

The GHB INDs were telling. Instead of corroborating the FDA’s views and the testimony of government expert witnesses, the INDs flatly contradicted them. GHB was repeatedly described, in IND after IND, as a safe, non-toxic, non-addictive substance, with an extremely wide margin of safety. With the INDs in evidence, the prosecution is having a hard time convincing either judge or jury of the dangers of GHB. With the growing realization that GHB was never properly classified as a drug, and that it now fits the Federal legal definition of a food supplement, the judicial system is recognizing that it has been “had” by the FDA. One of the FDA’s expert witnesses who recently testified as to the dangers of GHB was forced to admit that she had never seen a single patient who had taken GHB.

As the FDA’s GHB convictions are unraveling at the seams — with at least one US government attorney in jeopardy of being disbarred because of prosecutorial misconduct in these GHB cases — the FDA has adopted several, new, “end-run” tactics. They have shifted emphasis in the anti-GHB crusade from the courts to the media. FDA, DEA and police agents are telling reporters that GHB is a dangerous, lethal and addictive drug; that it is an illegal “designer” drug; and that it is a “date rape” drug. Such “expert” opinions have propagated a plethora of hysterical articles in the popular (and even medical) press to demonize GHB. Frenzied media reports about River Phoenix, dead teenagers, and near-death experiences of GHB-using club-goers are sweeping the nation.

We have found, however, in the process of investigating every alleged GHB-related death, that none can be legitimately attributed to any purported toxic effect of GHB. Furthermore, in almost every case in which GHB was declared as a cause of death, I [WD] found that the medical examiner had been influenced in his decision by a “helpful” agent from the FDA or DEA, who had “kindly” explained the dangerous toxicity of GHB. In many cases, allegations of GHB use were simply not true (e.g., River Phoenix’s death). In all others, in which GHB use was confirmed, the cause of death was due to other factors or other diseases. The Chief Medical Examiner of San Francisco County — who developed the most widely used technique for identifying and quantifying GHB levels in body fluids and tissues, and whose laboratory is frequently used by the FDA and DEA to test samples — told me [WD] that he had never seen a death due to GHB toxicity. He explained what he believed to be the true cause of death in every case.

The strategy begind the anti-GHB media campaign is tough new laws to criminalize GHB sales and posession. Attempts are now underway in several state capitols to ram new anti-GHB bills through state legislatures before “any more kids will die from the evil GHB.” Georgia, Rhode Island, Florida and California are states that have already introduced such bills. Who knows which other states will follow suit shortly.

In California, Assembly Bill 6 (AB6) specifies that GHB will become classified as a Schedule I drug (that “would only be lawfully available for research and would have no approved medical use”). No medical uses? That’s right, no medical uses! Although GHB is currently recommended and/or prescribed by doctors for a host of applications (lowering muscle tension, enhancing relaxation, relieving anxiety, inducing natural sleep, aleviating depression, assisting marital sex problems, etc.), no medical uses will be allowed.

Apparently, California doesn’t care that there are 15 INDs filed with the FDA for 1) improving sleep patterns and maintaining daytime alertness in narcolepsy, 2) reducing schizophrenic symptoms, 3) stabilizing Parkinson’s disease, 4) reducing nocturnal myoclonus (painful leg cramps at night), 5) improving memory problems, 6) stimulating natural growth hormone release, 7) decreasing pain and improving sleep in fibromyalgia, 8) relieving symptoms in Huntington’s chorea, 9) regulating muscle tone in dystonia musculorum deformans, 10) controling tardive dyskinesia symptoms, 11) decreasing drug withdrawal symptoms (alcohol and opiates), 12) decreasing hyperactivity and learning disabilities in children, 13) inducing sedation and tranquilization, 14) relieving anxiety [in fact, it has been recommended as the anti-anxiety agent of choice for potentially suicidal patients], and 15) lowering cholesterol. No medical applications, indeed.

The incredible dichotomy between GHB as a safe miracle nutrient (with extensive applications to a host of human maladies) and GHB as a lethal designer drug (used for date rape and other nefarious purposes) can hardly be more striking. What or who is behind this “reefer madness” of the 90s? Whatever or whomever it is, they are pushing this issue hard. California’s AB6 states, “In order to protect the health and well-being of the public as soon as possible, it is necessary that this act go into immediate effect.”

The lack of danger and minimal addictive risks of GHB are graphically illustrated by the FDA-approved protocols for dispensing GHB in narcolepsy studies. After preliminary laboratory-monitored sleep studies (one or two nights to obtain a baseline), the test subjects are given large containers of GHB, told what dose range to take (6-8 grams per night), and instructed to come back for more when they need it.

The protocol also instructs the subjects go to bed immediately after taking the GHB, and remain in bed for 6-8 hours until morning. However, considering the number of elderly subjects in the studies, with their known propensity to visit the bathroom several times each night, it is doubtful that these instructions are rigidly followed. Were there any adverse effects? In one of the multi-year studies, which employed nearly 75 people, it appeared that there was about a 20% incidence of bed-wetting — the most disturbing side effect. However, when the data were analyzed, it was found that all the bed-wetting was experienced by one 84-year-old patient, who said that he’d rather continue to wet the bed and get a good night’s sleep than stop taking GHB! Other side effects that were occasionally reported included sleep-walking and various minor incidences of nausea and vomiting (which were dose-related, and usually resolved with continued use). Included in these INDs were reports of many people taking as much as 30 grams of GHB per day for several months without ill effects.

This is hardly a picture of danger and addiction. This is hardly “irrelevant” to court cases in which government expert witnesses are testifying about GHB’s toxicities, dangers and addictive properties. And this is hardly a situation requiring criminalization. This is a crisis manufactured by the FDA, aided and abetted by the DEA, compounded by local police, inflamed by the media, and perpetuated by ignorance. We do not need to have “GHB madness” become a permanent part of our culture as law. We do not need to disenfranchise patients, impair the practice of medicine, and drive citizens to obtain their food supplements in the drug underground.

This is not some abstract article. This effects me (and millions of others) personally. Now because of this the FDA alone stands to make at least $15 BILLION from GHB regulation. Now the DEA will continually make bank on in "drug investigations" suposedly involving GHB. Don't forget the pharmacheutical companies and doctors. A suppliment that was once sold at health food stores now has the same government scheduling as herion.

Because of this hysteria what I could have gotten for a couple dolars a month OTC I now have to pay over $700 a month! Not only that I am forced to continually see a specialist that I have to pay (out of pocket) to keep my prescription. Luckly my insurance covers most of the cost of the prescription (for now) but I'm now in jepordy of losing my health coverage. That's a pretty scary thought alone. Prohibition has no positive end result for citizens. That goes for more than just GHB.

 

[chipvideo]

Interesting you mention that. My health has only improved since I've stated using GHB on a regular basis. I'm actually leaving for some blood work in an hour.

Here's a good medical/drug profile:
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/gam_0284.shtml

You can take the studies I've refered to at more than face-value. I'm not near alone as living proof of the positive benefits.

I only got into this argument because there were so many false, uneducated claims being made about GHB. Although I don't agree with US drug policy, I am not suggesting it be used illicitly.

I just have one thing to say deltree. This thread is not about using small dosages as you take. The poster is looking for an alternative to GET HIGH. Big difference. You have to take alot more than what your taking.

Most people who take ghb for the high end up getting addicted to it. Out of the 10 people that I knew who started using it all of them got extremely addicted to it. They were not addicted to any other types of drugs. You can go on and on about all this but the fact is when your addicted to GHB your taking in way more than the body can handle and your doing some serious damage to your kidneys and liver. I know many people who were taking up to 75 grams per day just to keep the body feeling normal and not going through the withdrawl symptoms. GHB is dangerous if your using it for the wrong reason. When I first started taking ghb I told myself it was the perfect drug as it had so many good things about it. Well those are in small doses. This drug will elevate your BP to ungodly highs when your addicted to it.

I know about addiction. I was never addicted to any drug until I started taking ghb. I couldn't keep my hands off it. It is pointless talking to you on this subject as obviously havent seen anyone addicted to the drug yet.

 

[ohashi]

Everyone who takes anything to get high gets addicted, be it pot, coke, alcohol, a sugar rush (fucking Pepsi), cigarretes... anything that floats your boat. To blame the substance rather than the person (with the exception of a few things that are physically addictive, such as opiates) is stupid and sophomoric.

 

[chipvideo]

I started taking g for sleep reasons. I then liked the way it made me feel. I felt like a god when on it. sex was amazing. I just felt like I wanted to be touched all the time and I loved everyone around me. I was not taking it to get high at first. It then progressed to that. I think your missing the point. The point is the odds are very high that more than 50% of the people who use ghb will get addcited to the stuff. That tells me that the drug itself has addctive properties.

Like I said I know many who got addicted to ghb and were never addicted to any other type of drug in their life.

I am talking PHYSICAL addiction. YOu can die on ghb when getting off the stuff. People have. If you quit cold turkey your heart can stop.

100 grams per day is a big difference than the ones taking 4 grams per day. Your body builds a tolerance to ghb like you wouldn't believe. Your not going to convince me that ghb is a good drug to take. There is more harm than good. I would never suggest using this stuff to anyone. Anyone who does is a complete moron. YOu don't know if they will get addcited to the drug or not. If they do then you can blame yourself. Don't give me this line of crap that it is there fault.

 

[ohashi]

1. Show me proof of people taking 100 grams per day regularly ("I have" or "and that friend has" is not proof).

2. Prove to me that it is physically addictive. Just because you're weak does not mean that the addiction is physical.

3. Heart can stop if you quit cold turkey? Yeah, and you lose chunks of your spine if you use E once or twice.

 

[chipvideo]

1. Show me proof of people taking 100 grams per day regularly ("I have" or "and that friend has" is not proof).

2. Prove to me that it is physically addictive. Just because you're weak does not mean that the addiction is physical.

3. Heart can stop if you quit cold turkey? Yeah, and you lose chunks of your spine if you use E once or twice.

You have got to be kidding me. I have to show you proof. That is the lamest I have ever read. How in the heck could I prove to you what I have seen. That is impossible.

I tell you one thing. GHB is the one thing I would never recomend to any of my family or friends.

I know several people who used to post on elite fitness over 8 years ago. I bet your were not even around here then. This message board is a different format than it was in the mid to late 90's.

I personally have gotten icq messages from over 5 people all trying to get off the stuff in the late 90's. IF you ever seen anyone passed out on g it is the scariest thing you have ever seen. A bowl of jello is the same comparison. It can make you stop breathing.

Go ahead and convince others to take the crap. I hope you rot in hell for telling them too.

 

[deltreefitness]

I started taking g for sleep reasons. I then liked the way it made me feel. I felt like a god when on it. sex was amazing. I just felt like I wanted to be touched all the time and I loved everyone around me. I was not taking it to get high at first. It then progressed to that. I think your missing the point. The point is the odds are very high that more than 50% of the people who use ghb will get addcited to the stuff. That tells me that the drug itself has addctive properties.

Like I said I know many who got addicted to ghb and were never addicted to any other type of drug in their life.

I am talking PHYSICAL addiction. YOu can die on ghb when getting off the stuff. People have. If you quit cold turkey your heart can stop.

100 grams per day is a big difference than the ones taking 4 grams per day. Your body builds a tolerance to ghb like you wouldn't believe. Your not going to convince me that ghb is a good drug to take. There is more harm than good. I would never suggest using this stuff to anyone. Anyone who does is a complete moron. YOu don't know if they will get addcited to the drug or not. If they do then you can blame yourself. Don't give me this line of crap that it is there fault.

There is NO PHYSICAL addiction or widthdrawl with GHB.

"If you quit cold-turkey your heart can stop"

The above quote proves you no absolutely nothing about GHB or it's actions to the human body.

GHB is NOT A DRUG. If you consider it a drug then you must consider any carbohydrate a drug. GHB is a normal component of mammalian metabolism. It is found naturally in every cell in the human body and is most properly considered a nutrient.

It shows extremely little tolerance build-up. Even in long term (years). There are proven cases in clinical trails and REAL-LIFE where over a 100 grams without adverse consequence. If you "over-dose" (which should never happen when accurately measuring) you simply get really good sleep. It is non-toxic.

I have no idea what "drug" you are refering to when you speak of all this bullshit but it certianly is not GHB.

 

[deltreefitness]

1. Show me proof of people taking 100 grams per day regularly ("I have" or "and that friend has" is not proof).

2. Prove to me that it is physically addictive. Just because you're weak does not mean that the addiction is physical.

3. Heart can stop if you quit cold turkey? Yeah, and you lose chunks of your spine if you use E once or twice.

1. There are hospital records of people who tried to commit suicide by ingesting a 190ml bottle of pure GHB (about 90g). Their attemps were unsuccessful. They awake safely a couple hours later with a headache.

Where people have died at the emergency room from GHB "over-dose" is because they didn't know what to do and actully mistakenly killed them. Of course their going to blame GHB. Fortunately now more hospitals know if someone is brought in who they know have "passed-out" (fell asleep) from taking GHB to not do anything.

2. There is no proof. But there is proof that is not physically addictive.

3. That is plain bullshit.

 

[chipvideo]

There is NO PHYSICAL addiction or widthdrawl with GHB.

"If you quit cold-turkey your heart can stop"

The above quote proves you no absolutely nothing about GHB or it's actions to the human body.

GHB is NOT A DRUG. If you consider it a drug then you must consider any carbohydrate a drug. GHB is a normal component of mammalian metabolism. It is found naturally in every cell in the human body and is most properly considered a nutrient.

It shows extremely little tolerance build-up. Even in long term (years). There are proven cases in clinical trails and REAL-LIFE where over a 100 grams without adverse consequence. If you "over-dose" (which should never happen when accurately measuring) you simply get really good sleep. It is non-toxic.

I have no idea what "drug" you are refering to when you speak of all this bullshit but it certianly is not GHB.

You sound like your in denial.

I tell you what. If I had a choice of my children taking drugs, GHB would be the one I would be most concerned of.

If you had a choice to get into a car of somone on these three substances.

Alcohol, GHB, Pot, what would it be?

I would never get in a car with a person who was driving on ghb. You know why. It is because one minute they can be a sober as a nun and the next minute they can be passed out at the wheel.

Jeez if ghb is so good for you then I guess they should have it at school lunch.

I used to think just like you. GHB is a drug. Just because it is found in every cell in the human body doesn't make it otherwise.

Go ahead and tell your family to take it. It is soo good for you. I have seen it and I know the game. GHB is the worst thing there is. It is because of people like you telling people it is good for you. If you think it is good for you then the likelihood of more people using it is higher.

GHB is only ok for you if you don't get addicted and take tiny amounts. The problem is the high ghb produces is so intenste and good that it becomes addictive.

You can yap all you want, but I have seen the dark side to ghb. It is no fun and games. You obviously have never seen the bad side to GHB.

I have a question for you. If you were going to believe somone who would you believe. Say you here about this so called substance. One person says it is fine I take the prescribed amount. Another person says I have seen it ruin many peoples life. They get addicted to it and take way more than they should.

I don't even think you would get the point to the above anyhow. I went to rehab because of the stuff. They never even heard of it. All of a sudden 2 years after I started rehab more and more people started comming in because of it. The reason why is because nobody even knew about ghb and then it became more poplular.

I would bet you that % wise ghb has ruined more peoples life than alcohol. I bet maybe 1% of people who have tried alcohol has ruined their lifes.

I would rather my kids smoke pot than take ghb.