being GAY.

[smallmovesal]

*gasps*

you're right! damn, i do have small breasts! wow, thanks - now i can sleep at night.

warik has a superiority complex that he needs to address. it's as simple as that.

 

[Citruscide]

Whatever Warik said... Thumbs up

C

 

[buddy28]

Johny Juice, now ur on my shit list

Kidding.

I agree. I do think alot of gay men share similar social behavours. But sterotyping all gay males as meeting some subjective standard of gayness, regardless if they meet the criteria or not, hurts both parties involved. It hurts the gay community because it perpetuates the social gay sterotype, which inhibits gays successfull integration in society. And secondly, it hurts the person whose sterotpying others by encouraging a cognitive behavour that generalizes and demeans anothers character, instead of choosing to understand and empathise with the individual.

 

[bAsSbUmP]

johnny: please speak for yourself and not for all of us italians; we are not greaseballs!!!!!! heheh

peace

 

[wyst]

Oh, I don't have a problem with people saying what they think, but Warik seems to just say what he thinks will piss people off for his jollies, which he pretty much admitted to. He tends to try and think of something that will make the thread explode like an atom bomb and then takes the "what are you all so irritated about?" pose that he's not very good at. And it's extremely counterproductive in someone who is supposed to be a moderator. Look at Warlobo, the women's board mod; he has some very strong opinions, but he's miles above starting fights for his own amusement.

As I've pointed out to Warik on other occasions, it does matter how you present your opinions. If you present things in nasty nutcase light, don't be all surprised and pointlessly smug when people treat you like one. I just thought I wouldn't have to experience that irritating technique again once I got out of high school. Just because after you purposely piss people off you act all calm doesn't mean you aren't the instigator. That's just a typical (and not particularly clever) passive-aggressive tactic.

I shouldn't let it yank my chain so bad, though. To me it's clear that that's his ulterior motive in most of his posts, yanking chains.

My problem with his post is yes, queenie guys, often gay, but gay guys not often queenie. I am bi, and have lived in and out of the gay culture for years, and most gay men aren't queenie. The average gay kid who's in the closet often is afraid to come out of the closet for just the reason that people with very little real experience like warik perpetuate the stereotype that gay men are like that. Some are most aren't and both are fine. But imagine feeling attracted to men but also being a more traditionally masculine guy and knowing that if you come out of the closet society will instinctively see you as a queen? That's the harm of the stereotype that warik delights in perpetuating.

Some sterotypes are more insidious and hurtful than others, in my opinion. How would the big guys among you feel about feel about these two: "all men with deep voices are stupid," or "muscley guys are rapists," are those harmless stereotypes? I don't think so. Don't assume that the stereotyping you experienced is exactly the same as that experienced by gays. I'm not saying it wasn't hurtful; it may have been. It was for me at times.

The thing is you can eventually move on feel more secure in your italianism, and me in japanism (I can't figure out the real words here, I'm tired) because despite the stereotyping, we don't have the same stigmas attached to our races as gays do. The catholic church doesn't condemn italians or japanese, nor does the moral majority inveigh against us, etc. We are openly japanese and italian, and have japanese and italian parents and aunts and uncles and all that. (Unless we're orphans. I'm not.) And we have support from families. And we can see other people of our races if not on tv than at least on the streets. I can't hide my eyes, skin or hair. But gay teens have the whole teen angst shit the rest of us go through without the visble role models, most of them. They often have no one o confide in, or confess to (yeah, what would the church say to them, if they were catholic?) Yes everyone goes through this identity shit. Life is hard for everyone. But gay kids do tend to be even more alone.

I made this point, earlier in the thread, but I guess Warik didn't bother to read it. I really doubt he could refute it in its substance. He is more likely to pick at the edges and ignore the substance. That's his usual tactic in his "logical" arguements.

That's why people jump all over his ass. Not because of his opinions. Hell, I disagree with 90% of curling's opinions, but he's one of my favorite posters on here, because he's got a good sense of humor and argues like a gentleman.

Wyst

 

[wyst]

Oh yeah, and stay off smalls' titties!



Wyst

 

[ion]

The additional psychological burden is real , so are Warik's balls, so to speak. Another good thread.

 

[musclebrains]

I wish people could leave feelings out of arguments and try to discuss the issues themselves. -Warik

You say that and then here, for one example of many, is the content of your argument, the one you claim is free of feelings:

"I honestly don't care as long as I don't have to be subjected to witnessing any acts of homosexuality or flagrant displays of flaming gayness (i.e. tight pink shirts with limp wrists and a nasty liTHHHHHP), but I wish you'd stop crying about it. Wahhh homosexuals are stereotyped! How many times do I have to say it? "

So, there is the constant, predictable fact that you hardly ever have any insight into your own style and appear to be a person who thinks questioning himself would be weakness. (I could also mention the "feelings-free" use of an enormous font --not analagous to screaming, eh?)

Even your content is inevitably self-contradictory in the larger picture. You stereotype gay men and then claim nobody should stereotype you -- that it's a "personal insult" when it's directed to you. (Whereas I should not feel insulted by your stereotypes.) You claim you don't care about homosexuality -- unless it's demonstrated "flagrantly," yet you have no hesitation (a) in demonstrating your flagrant negative generalizations in this respect and (b) in flagrantly posting a thread about the facts of your own sexual orientation. You think you are driven by logic, which inflates your sense of yourself as a smart guy, but in fact you are frequently driven by the need to rationalize taste and prejudice.

I couldn't care less what you think about gay men. You're a mean-spirited kid with no power. I don't go into the AS forum and start telling people how to use drugs because I don't know that much about them. You, Warik, have very limited experience in the world but have no hesitation in bursting into a thread and using it as vehicle to state your inane tastes and embarassingly illogical claims.

One example of the latter is the purely dumb assertion that if a majority of AIDS patients are gay in this country, it's reasonable to stereotype gay men as either infected or promiscuous. What a nitwit reversal of logic. You might stereotype AIDS patients as gay but not the reverse. (Construct yourself a handy little analogy using heterosexuality and herpes, then conflate the two.) These kinds of perversions of logic are so common in your posts that one needs infinite time to address them. I am guessing this is what your teacher encountered in your infamous paper on gun control.

Ten years ago, when I was doing activist work in the AIDS community and often encountering people like you, my mentor told me to stop bothering to argue -- that every moment I wasted on people like you could be spent with someone suffering because nobody was loving them.

This thread was about what it's like to be without love, to be so hated and in such despair that you cannot find your way to a solution more attractive than suicide. Yes, Warik, suicide is often "illogical," but your repeated failures to account for the power of the irrational, like your own "illogical" following your girlfriend to a party you didn't want to go to, always undermine your arguments -- or at least that's the consequence of the repellent hubris with which you meet the nearly universal observation of your self contradictions.

Find a teacher you admire, go sit with them and listen, instead of running your mouth.

 

[musclebrains]

And secondly, it hurts the person whose sterotpying others by encouraging a cognitive behavour that generalizes and demeans anothers character, instead of choosing to understand and empathise with the individual.

Very true in my experience, Buddy. In encounter groups I've run, there often arrives the moment when the stereotyper realizes that he has been blind to the other in his individuality. In connecting to the "real" person, there's always a flash of grief on realizing that you've denied yourself connection of depth to people on a trivial difference.

 

[needleboy]

In the last year, I learned that a close friend of mine, Tom, from high school committed suicide because he was gay. Since he and I had not spoken since high school, I never knew that he had come to this realization.

I've been told that he killed himself because his family is very conservative & he didn't see how he could ever reconcile their religious, moral beliefs with his own sexuality. Also, he had no other gay people around him to confide in, leaving him incredibly isolated. Further, he was also an only child. Tom was 27.

I've been pretty tough on myself the last year over this issue, and have really been exploring the issue of what is so different from gay men and straight men? Are gays more self-destructive because of a sense of isolation, a sense of never being able to live up to family expectations......do many gay men just simply self-destruct? Are gays often vengeful towards one another because of jealousy or insecurity when in reality, they are the only ones who can probably truly understand one another?

In short, do people realize what gays must often live with? The stereotype of having AIDS. The stereotype of being sexually promiscous. The stereotype of doing drugs every weekend. Moreover, being disowned because of the one thing you can never change------YOUR SEXUALITY-----just like your eye color, there...it will always be.



RyanH,

I had a similar experience with a riend from HS who killed himself! It really sucks, I wish I had been in contact with him, so he would have a better support net, but I was not.To this day I regret that!

Howver stereo types has a bsis in reality. I have had close ties to the gay community most likely longer than you have been "out" I began bouncing at a gay nightclub for extra money when I was 17, they had a mixed cxollege night, and some of the frat guys got out of line sometimes! I have also run gay nightclubs in several cities.

It is possible that I have more gay friends than you, as 90% of my fiance's friends are gay.


Understanding this here are the facts, which we have discussed at length!:

1) Gay men are more promiscuous. This has mostly to do with the fact that women on the whole are harder to get into bed than men, gay or str8. A study done in the mid to late 80's of gay men in San Francisco, and tha Avg number of partners was 450! That had been declining mastly due to fear of AIDS, but this trend has been reversing itslef for the last 5-8 years with the new drug protocols making AIDS seem more manageable!

2) AIDS. Man this really bohers me, but sadly the gay population is largely infected with this virus. Of my friends (which are gay) 80% of the are HIV +. While the CDC puts the figure at around 30-35%, that is only including people who get tested! We both know that there are alot more out there, who are sick and know it, but refuse to get tested, because they wish to deny that they are sick. While the CDC's numbers are low, it is a static figure. But I would say that the chances of a gay man contracting HIV during his life are closer to 80-90%. What scares me is that not only is promiscuity on the rise, instances of safe sex are going down.l

3) Gay guys do alot of drugs! Deny it all you want, but I spent YEARS running gay clubs.


Just for the record AIDS is NOT a gay disease, but it is linked to lifestyle! Sorry, it's just a fact!

Str8 people who live promiscuous lifestyles are at greater risk as well!