ATF squatting form

[ridethesnake]

I am still pretty new to ass to the ground squats. My legs are weak, I'm doing the single factor 5x5: 135x5, 135x5, 145x5, 145x5, 155x5. My deadlift is much better, I've only been at it for a couple months (didn't know any better) but got 285x3 with out too much trouble last week (I dead once a week), I'm creeping up the scale and have yet to fail to add ten pounds on the bar each week.

[note: I don't do squats after deads, I do them first, I'm doing a version of the single factor from the freshman football player with a slightly stronger emphasis on non-back upper body, the 'beach work.']

When I get on the 4th and 5th sets of squats I notice that when I ascend, my hips move independent of my back causing my top half to incline. I'm looking up and arching my shoulders, so I think it's more of a good morning type movement than a bend in my back. I'm thinking I subconsciously shift the load more on my back because it's stronger than my little chicken legs. I could probably go heavier on the squats, I'm not seeing stars or bursting veins in my neck or anything, the time will come for that soon enough. It's still a bit akward, but I'm begining to enjoy them alot more than I did (I fucking LOVE deadlifts now so it's not suprising). My stance is just a tad wider than shoulder width with my feet slightly facing out. Kind of a mix between sumo and regular. I deadlift this way also, I've tried both a wider sumo style and the regular and feel most comfortable with the hybrid. Regular stance seemed to irritate my knees on squats.

Could someone with a firm knowledge of the mechanics offer any advice? Is this shift dangerous? Is there a trick to keeping my hips under my upper body? Is there another excersize (I would assume it would be some different form of squat) that would help me to improve my form?

My upper body is disproportionately strong if that helps. I could do the 5x5 with the weghts I do for squats on military press. . . well it'd be damn close.

That's why I'm squatting 3 times a week!

Thanks for your help.

 

[Madcow2]

Your squat will come along. Full squats are hard for some people - given that you are good at the dead I'm guessing you have long limbs.

The issue with the hips I assume is that they are moving back out of line and leaving your torso out in front a bit and you wind up doing something a bit closer to a goodmorning with the bar? There are a few exercises you can do and then I'll try to give you something for technique but this is really a whore over the internet so we'll see what happens.

Anyway, goodmornings and box squat variations will help. If you are in the 5x5 right now, you can't add either of those as they are both heavy enough to unbalance the program. Just work with what you have and file them away for an upcoming period.

Technique-wise. Very hard to explain sometimes because it's more about a feeling and different phrases and words mean different things to different people in this kind of stuff (3 people tell you the same thing but when the 4th guy does it you finally "get it"). When coming out of the hole, I've found it helpful to focus on my chest and "pulling back" so to speak. Your hips and waist are a hinge between your torso and legs. The issue is that your torso is allowing your legs to cheat and not work in the hinge and then it comes along and saves them. You don't want to train your lifts like this. So both arms of the hinge have to expand at the same rate. It's probably 45 degrees in the hole (top of your thighs vs. torso) and let's call it 180 degrees or totally open at the top where you are standing. Anyway, your bottom arm (legs) is moving too quickly for the upper arm (torso) so your hips move back and then your torso is left with saving the lift. This is a pretty common flaw by the way and you'll find many experienced lifters on max attempts still wind up reverting to a degree (not a massive one usually) simply because they are stronger this way - but this is training and you want to do it right so your form breaks down at 500 not 135. So concentrating on your torso and pulling back as your ascend is a good key. Some people like to concentrate on "up" or leading with their head. I've always thought about is as two arms and a hinge so pulling hard on the torso really serves to keep everything in line. What ends up happening is that the extra capacity in the torso lends itself to the hips and facilitates the leg drive. You squat straighter and you'll find yourself faster too.

Let me know how that works for you. Think about it some in your light warmups with the bar first and then try it with some weight. Hopefully something in that barrage gave you the right idea. Then again - hopefully I understood your issue because I just typed a shitload of useless garbage otherwise.

 

[ridethesnake]

I like the hinge analogy, I can see it clearly in my head. I'll concentrate on my torso and see if that helps.

Thanks bro.

 

[Dial_tone]

If you're going to squat 3X weekly I would make every other workout a light day.

 

[rbtrout]

Squatting come tough for me. Going all the way down, I lean forward a bit too much to feel comfortable. It also bothers my knees a bit (old fart and I refuse to wear wraps). I usually go just past parallel and then I don't lock out at the top, so I always keep tension on the muscle. It seems to work for me. Madcow2's analogy was excellent.
You might try cutting back to squatting only twice a week to let the muscles rest more.

 

[Madcow2]

Just so everybody is clear there is a different structure each day (being heavy/light/etc..) and using pyramids the volume is not outrageous (i.e., your set of 135 for 5 actually counts as one of your sets). This is also not a train to failure every workout type program. He's using the original Bill Starr template here:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15