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"Assisted" Vs. Natural Training

I have seen a lot of posts lately dealing with some guys thinking AAS are a magic potion and then others barking back that they do absolutely nothing. There are some posts in there that understand the happy medium, and the fact that AAS are a GREAT tool, a real great tool, when used with intense training, good nutrition, and proper rest. So, the guys and gals who understand this will not gain anything from my thread, except maybe I will entertain them a little. The guys who are on one extreme or another should read up, cause after I post this I will not even read a thread asking if AAS work, or if they have to lift while on AAS, or if they take a shot of test will they wake up in the AM able to bench 800lbs, or someone claiming creatine is a good alternative to AAS.

First I will give my personal experiences. I trained naturally for 9 years before even considering AAS use. Right now I am on for my current training cycle. I have been on for 4 weeks, my weight has so far gone from 260-271. I will tell you that recovery time is incredible, and you have to be a real jackass to overtrain. For example, I did squats ass to the floor on Mon.....my last set was 500x5.....I did power cleans today and my last set was 315x3....that is heavy for me and intense, right now I am not tired, burned out, fatigued, or sore. Thats how they help me, I can train like a madman and still gain. NOW, for the flip side, before I began my cycle my squat was NOT 275 and my clean was NOT 135, I did NOT just begin training, I added lbs and made gains, but I didn't go from 165lbs to 271, it was no "magic potion", just a big enhancement of what I already have.

There's some of my own experiences. Now it is time for a little fiction, well it isn't total fiction, I know many people like this, many of them, many, many of them. But we'll say the names have been changed to protect the innocent. Here we go, I don't want new guys to fall into eithr one of these types. One is Deca Dan, the other is Ben Dover.

We'll address Deca Dan first. Dan is a bouncer at a nightclub, he works 5 nights a week and then after work he parties until 10 AM the next day, popping extasy, drinking liquor, and acting like an idiot in general. Dan averages about 4 hours of sleep every 24 hours, his diet is horrendous, and he follows a workout in FLEX Magazine. Dan makes gains in his training, big gains. This is because he runs we'll say 1,500mg of Sustanon a week, he eats 15 D-Bols per day, and he crushes up 2 Anadrol-50 Tabs in his post-workout shake. Dan is a strong guy, but he is no world-class athlete. Dan can bench 365 x 10. When Dan stops juicing, he will either get really fat or really small depending on his body type, he will stop lifting, become very depressed, and lose every single gain he made.

Now lets address Ben Dover. Ben is a real nice guy. He works a good, steady 9-5 job. He doesn't go out often, doesn't whore around, in fact he is in the gym 4-5 days a week, every week. The guy has not missed a scheduled workout in 15 years, he is in the gym on Christmas and New Year's day. Every Monday he grabs his favorite bench in the gym and continues to plug away totally drug free. You see, Ben is really against AAS, he feels they are just morally wrong and why would anyone do that to themselves. Ben will never stop lifting weights, he will never miss a workout, his 1RM on the bench press is 350, he looks over at Deca Dan repping 365 x 10 on the next bench and shakes his head saying "if only I would lower my standards and try the juice" then his spotter hands him the bar where he pushes up a very slow 350. On the same day 5 years ago Ben pushed up a very slow 350, and 5 years before that he pushed up a very slow 350.

Lets travel through time and take a lookat these 2 cats 10 years from now. Deca Dan is either a fat ass or a tooth pick, he calmed down and got married, has a day job and a few kids, he is a normal, okay guy. However, if he attempted to bench the 365 he once did for 10 reps he would have his sternum crushed. Ben Dover, has still not missed a workout in ten yearsm he is doing well in life, his one rep max on the bench press? You guessed it, a very slow and steady 350 lbs.

So, does everybody see my point? Don't be an extremist. Train, eat, sleep, build your base. Once you stop gaining there is nothing wrong with a little something to bust you through the wall. When your cycle is over, lay off the shit until you hit another wall. To the guys making gains naturally, don't try AAS until you hit a wall.

I hope this taught some inexperienced guys something, and I hope it amused the guys who know what they're doing.
 
Slow and steady wins the race?

So are you saying that if we just keep juicing and never settle down we will be great one day? ;)

J/K, man. Good post.
 
BBBD29- Good post, though most of these same people probably think hitting a wall is when that first 300lb bench attempt comes smashing down on them....

I've always been drug free (though I got nothing against it) and I still have yet to hit a true wall that I could not get past without anything more than a swift kick in my proverbial training rear.....

I could have made gains quicker with I am sure, but I was still always way ahead of those who were less dedicated whether they were on or off.... (and that was most-until I came to this board that is!)
 
It took me 10 years of completely dedicated training to know for sure that I had hit my genetic limit. I've made great gains since I started running cycles, but the steroids are by no means magic.

My last cycle before my contest diet started I had something wrong with my stomach, which made it really hard to eat enough food. So, despite the fact that my training, cycle, and everything else was on track, I gained almost nothing for my efforts because the nutrition wasnt 100%. If steroids were the magic solution that many think they are, I would have still gained, but because one of the pieces was missing from the puzzle, I gained pretty much nothing.

The moral of this story is that although they do greatly enhance your ability to grow, if the other pieces arent all in place then you wont get squat from them
 
Great post. Drugs do not make up for low intensity. ONe of my friends just did his first cycle. Went out drinking all the time didn't lift when he felt bad and he gained 70lbs of fat. Without the work it doesn't matter what you take. It all still comes down to you.

Cheers,
Scotsman
 
Hmmmm. After 19, 20-years of training. I've yet to stop seein' any gains.

I've been drug-free and I have absolutely nothin' against those who do decide to use something.

Agree that to make sure your diet and training are right on track. And to be educated, too.

I just hate the people that say, "been training consistently for 2-years and I think I've hit my 'genetic' potential; what drugs should I take now?" :mad:
 
slinky said:


I just hate the people that say, "been training consistently for 2-years and I think I've hit my 'genetic' potential; what drugs should I take now?" :mad:

:lmao:

I heard my ex-girlfriend tell that to a guy who had just spent 5 minutes explaining to us how he has hit his genetic potential at 5'10" and 165 pounds...lol. She was 5'5" and 185...lol

B True
 
I think it all comes down to a lot of people are lazy and don't want to put in the blood, sweat, tears, and screaming that it takes to improve yourself.

Cheers,
Scotsman
 
I agree with that, diet is key. Speaking figuratively, even if the construction workers are on crack, they still need materials if anything's gonna get built.

But training is a different story. Steroids act as a huge amplification to the growth signal. Every stage of anabolism skyrockets because so many different tissues have test receptors (that accounts for the side-effects). STEROIDS CAN MAKE UP FOR BAD TRAINING, as evidenced by the wide range of training programs espoused by different pros. Does each pro know him/herself so well that they've engineered a 100% effective program? That's what some would have you think. I disagree; I think it's moreso a testament to the anabolic potential of their drugs. After all, we all obey the same rules of growth.
 
great post bbbd

casual at least qualify that you are talking about pro bb, but the thing you fail to address is that no matter what the fuck a pro bb does be it hst or pilates they will need massive amounts of growth, insulin and aas to look anywhere near competetive.
 
As casualBB has said, and as i have said time and time again, i have seen steroids put muscle/mass, whatever you want to call it on people who's training routine basically involves 4 sets of squats and 3 sets of cable crossover's each week, a slab of beer and McDonald's diet.

If you guys measure an effective sterod regime as one which puts on 45 pounds of muscle, then you need to get real. An effective steroid regime to the person using it is any amount of muscle over and above what they could have achieved naturally with the same input of effort.

Get real people.
 
agreed, over 5 years and still all natty, so much progress, cant wait to post before and afters from just one year ago,its unreal the diff.
 
Bootydaddy, thank you

Vinylgroover, could you truly be that incredibly dense? You really need to stop commenting on this subject.
 
Thaibox said:
Bootydaddy, thank you

Vinylgroover, could you truly be that incredibly dense? You really need to stop commenting on this subject.

Don't give me that patronising bullshit Thaibox. If you choose to take steroids good for you......i could care less and you don't need to defend your actions to me or anyone else.

But don't come here and trot out your usual crap about how it's all diet and training and mental aptitiude and that steroids play a minor role.

5% of those who take steroids have any desire to compete as a bodybuilder therefore yes, of course diet and training is equally as important to them to get to the top.

But for the other 95% who take them, steroids will lead to gains that they could never have hoped of as naturals.......with the same input of effort, the same diet and the same training routine. Wake up and get real.
 
vinylgroover said:


Don't give me that patronising bullshit Thaibox. If you choose to take steroids good for you......i could care less and you don't need to defend your actions to me or anyone else.

But don't come here and trot out your usual crap about how it's all diet and training and mental aptitiude and that steroids play a minor role.

5% of those who take steroids have any desire to compete as a bodybuilder therefore yes, of course diet and training is equally as important to them to get to the top.

But for the other 95% who take them, steroids will lead to gains that they could never have hoped of as naturals.......with the same input of effort, the same diet and the same training routine. Wake up and get real.

yes if you hold all things constant, taking steroids will make you grow more than not taking them....but that is not what is being debated and you guys keep missing the point.

I think that steroids are being used like genetics, as an excuse to hate on people who work harder and are more dedicated
 
IronLion said:


yes if you hold all things constant, taking steroids will make you grow more than not taking them....but that is not what is being debated and you guys keep missing the point.


That is precisely the point.

No one is hating on anyone. But i will disagree with the ridiculous assertion that is always made on these boards that steroids are a 'minor' factor in increased growth by those who take them.

The majority of those on these boards and in real life who use are not competitive bodybuilders. I'm arguing the rule, not the exception.
 
I can't believe you totally missed what I(and others) was saying. :rolleyes:
I think this thread has officially become a waste of board space.

Sorry jeremys
 
Thaibox said:
I can't believe you totally missed what I(and others) was saying. :rolleyes:
I think this thread has officially become a waste of board space.

Sorry jeremys

i didn't start this thread. just all the other highly controversial ones ;)
 
I'm not sure I buy this whole "reaching your genetic potential." Of course I could be wrong, I train primarily for strength and not size. I've been training 8 years and have not stopped gaining, nor do I see an end to my gains. Would AAS help me gain more? Heck yes, I'm sure they would. But what if I were able to do the same thing naturally? That's what I'm shooting for, and I'll achieve it :)
 
bigguns15 said:
Heck yes, I'm sure they would. But what if I were able to do the same thing naturally? That's what I'm shooting for, and I'll achieve it :)

Hooah...and if you maintain that attitude...you will:)
 
VG, have you ever done a cycle? If not, how can you know anything about training while on steroids?


Those of us who take anabolics were once natural, so we know what it's like to train with and without steroids. And personally, if I'm not taking in massive amounts of food, and following my high intensity/low volume/progressive resistance based training, I just can't grow.
 
Slobber, neither can I, nor any of my friends that have used gear. I guess 6 years of busting my ass naturally prior to using.... busting my ass for three moderate cycles....and then busting my ass even harder 24 hours a day for the last 2 years without gear does not qualify me to debate vinylgroover with the information he has gathered from "seeing others do it."
 
Thaibox, that's only you. How about hundreds of other lifters who use steroids to make up for inadequate training. Obviously they won't grow to their full potential, but they will STILL grow a little, as opposed to if they were natural.
 
Obviously they won't grow to their full potential, but they will STILL grow a little, as opposed to if they were natural.

revex, first let me say that what you just said is absolutely correct. I am not arguing this at all. I am saying that vinylgroover is using such extremes that its silly. Vinylgroover is saying that anyone can use gear and grow like mad with totally crappy training. That's pure BS.

Also, its not only me...its my training buddies, the amateur and pro competitors and fighters I have lifted and trained with over the years, as well as several vets on this board that have supported my opinion as well.

Again, you're right. Vinylgroover is not.:)
 
revexrevex said:
I think all of us mis-interpreted each other.
Yeah

It became an argument of degree not concept. With the exception of a couple people with no clue as to what they're saying, we all seem to agree. It was just a poorly understood premise.
 
Thaibox said:


revex, first let me say that what you just said is absolutely correct. I am not arguing this at all. I am saying that vinylgroover is using such extremes that its silly. Vinylgroover is saying that anyone can use gear and grow like mad with totally crappy training. That's pure BS.

Also, its not only me...its my training buddies, the amateur and pro competitors and fighters I have lifted and trained with over the years, as well as several vets on this board that have supported my opinion as well.

Again, you're right. Vinylgroover is not.:)

I'm using extreme's.....what a joke. It's you who's using extreme's by claiming that you and your buddy's won't grow on steroids......well duh, after you've already put on 40 pounds of mass what do you expect.

I'm talking about the other 95% of cases.

Anecdotal evidence is all i have, but it's pretty fucking solid evidence over 10 years.

I be you right now, that if i was to go on a cycle without changing anything to do with my routine or diet i would look like an animal after my first cycle in comparison to what i lked like before that cycle.Who's supplying the extra muscle, me or the steroids?
 
vg youre wrong 100 percent.....why don't you do a cycle and prove your point....btw on average the guys on the anabolic side who sport a gram a week look like they have been training about 2 years....why is that?



btw thaibox i have been around enough guys using gram plus that look like shit compared to me natural to know that you are completely right.....
 
Its interesting to observe how 180 lb guys do cycles and get to 200.. but their mass has no shape, no density, no seasoned look, even if their body fat is low. I 5000% agree that you need a solid natural base before you start, that's why I am holding back now. Over here when I am, testestorone cyp and sus are like orange juice, oyu can buy them off of any corner lol, obviously im speaking figuratevely, But anyway I want to wait until I get to 550 deadlift, 335 bench, and 400 squat, and then hit it really hard! This way I will have the natural base which will be further optimized
 
revexrevex said:
Its interesting to observe how 180 lb guys do cycles and get to 200.. but their mass has no shape, no density, no seasoned look, even if their body fat is low. I 5000% agree that you need a solid natural base before you start, that's why I am holding back now. Over here when I am, testestorone cyp and sus are like orange juice, oyu can buy them off of any corner lol, obviously im speaking figuratevely, But anyway I want to wait until I get to 550 deadlift, 335 bench, and 400 squat, and then hit it really hard! This way I will have the natural base which will be further optimized

Yea, I know what you mean about the density thing, but I think it's because they usually do isolation movements and not so much squats or deadlifts ...

It usually takes a good 2-3years for the average guy to start squatting. Ofcourse if you have a coach or read online then you won't be like this, but from my experience there aren't that many guys squatting, deadlifting, or doing bb rows ...

-sk
 
The exercises definetely play a huge role in the development. But there are other important things, and that thing is time. You can train half assed for 10 years, and as long as you dont overtrain you will have muscle on you. Those kids who only trained for 2 years and juice, they simply didnt have the oportunity to go through powerlifting phases, heavy triples, singles and power movements to have the kind of body that a person who put time into his/her body with proper eating and heavy training. When the person works hard naturally and the enhances himself with steroids they will explode. When a person works half assed naturally, the addition of steroids will make them grow as well, but not to a point of a person who put time, and experience into his body
 
revexrevex said:
The exercises definetely play a huge role in the development. But there are other important things, and that thing is time. You can train half assed for 10 years, and as long as you dont overtrain you will have muscle on you. Those kids who only trained for 2 years and juice, they simply didnt have the oportunity to go through powerlifting phases, heavy triples, singles and power movements to have the kind of body that a person who put time into his/her body with proper eating and heavy training. When the person works hard naturally and the enhances himself with steroids they will explode. When a person works half assed naturally, the addition of steroids will make them grow as well, but not to a point of a person who put time, and experience into his body


well said
 
revexrevex said:
The exercises definetely play a huge role in the development. But there are other important things, and that thing is time. You can train half assed for 10 years, and as long as you dont overtrain you will have muscle on you. Those kids who only trained for 2 years and juice, they simply didnt have the oportunity to go through powerlifting phases, heavy triples, singles and power movements to have the kind of body that a person who put time into his/her body with proper eating and heavy training. When the person works hard naturally and the enhances himself with steroids they will explode. When a person works half assed naturally, the addition of steroids will make them grow as well, but not to a point of a person who put time, and experience into his body

I would mostly agree ...

-sk
 
Damn, this was popular. What i basically wanted to get across with my "fictional" characters is that the yare both total douche bags. The mind sets that they both exhibit are a trap that needs to be avoided. Those who think the only way to grow is AAS are ignorant or inexperienced and afraid of hard work, don't knowhow to eat or don't want to, ot are 14 years old and know no better, and those who think AAS do nothing and feel they will gain their whole lives naturally are fools as well. I have made great natural gains before using, but look at it this way.To the guys and girls who are making gains naturally and feel no need to ever use, look at it this way.......If you keep gaining at the rate you are now for the next 10 years you'd have 800lb benches, 1200lb squats, 1000lb deadlifts.....do you see what I mean?very serious trainer will gain naturally, but it does stop.....

I am not persuading people to use drugs, I am just trying to get across that everyone hits a wall, it may not be a total wall, I mean you might put 5lbs on a lift per year, but what the fuck is that?? I have a lot of admiration for natural trainers who eat and work their asses off, if you keep gaining at the rates you are now for the rest of your lives, you will prove me to be an asshole I guess. But I think people totally 1,000% percent against AAS due to the fatc that they are exploding naturally will see my point once the honeymoon is over and they are faced with a big, fat brick wall.

As for VG, I understand what you are trying to say, but I think everyone got pissed because you were off the point of the post. I think the way you worded what you said and the context you said it in got people riled up, but I do know where you were trying to go, it was just off the point of the post.
 
Last edited:
BBBD,

I know the point you were making. My original response was not replying to you, but to the others here who keep downplaying the significance of steroids in assisting them to build muscle.

I stick by my point as i originally made it.

I'll leave Thaibox with this analogy, which basically sums my whle point up.

Ben Johnson didn't shave 1.5 seconds off his best time by simply upping his diet, nutrition and training. Are steroids no magic pill? ask Ben Johnson.
 
vinylgroover said:
BBBD,

I know the point you were making. My original response was not replying to you, but to the others here who keep downplaying the significance of steroids in assisting them to build muscle.

I stick by my point as i originally made it.

I'll leave Thaibox with this analogy, which basically sums my whle point up.

Ben Johnson didn't shave 1.5 seconds off his best time by simply upping his diet, nutrition and training. Are steroids no magic pill? ask Ben Johnson.

You're clueless bro ...

-sk
 
that was a bad taste for you to start with personal accusations vinyl.. just stop... everyone shut the fuck up and squat
 
vinylgroover said:


tell me how clueless i am sk.

You went from a staggering 130 pounds to what? 240 now.

No magic pill hey......give me a break

No man, i'm gonna tell you straight forward. I used steroids when I had no business using them. Why? Cause I jumped on them after 4months of training.

I am gaining now as well as I ever did on steroids, and the only anabolics I use are squats and deadlifts.

I always thought that I wanna get there the fastest way, which is still cool by me. What I am understanding now is that I can still pack up the mass without them ... and I mean the same exact mass, not less.

So you guys keep spreading your horseshit without ever touching an amp.

-sk
 
vinylgroover said:

Ben Johnson didn't shave 1.5 seconds off his best time by simply upping his diet, nutrition and training. Are steroids no magic pill? ask Ben Johnson.

did you help train B.J?

read "speed trap" and get a clue.

I am sick of this shit.
 
If they are a magic pill, then why did my last year happen the way that it did? My life is totally dedicated to this lifestyle. I dont remember the last time I ate less then 7 times a day, I havent missed a scheduled workout in over 5 years. I have over 12 years of serious training under my belt and know training and nutrition inside out. But despite all that, over the past year all that dedication resulted in almost no gains, even when my stomach was okay and I could eat all that I needed to. If steroids were a magic pill then I should have gained another 20lbs, but I didnt...
 
spatts said:
Slow and steady wins the race?

So are you saying that if we just keep juicing and never settle down we will be great one day? ;)

J/K, man. Good post.

Big Booty, good post. I want to comment, but first...

Spatts, a silly question, m'lady: is that your back in your avatar?

I know you're a good deadlifter and have excellent legs, but wow. This avatar--well, and the one with your quasi-side chest--demonstrate sweet upper body muscularity.

You are really, *really* pretty too :)

Sorry, I couldn't help myself :o I think you are the best-looking femme powerlifter I've seen in...well, ever.
 
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