are u patriontic and is patriotism a good thing

[spongebob]

1. what i'm suggesting is we don't care because they aren't americans. Of our 3 trillion tax dollars (i'm pretty sure its 3 now as the GNP is 10.5 trillion now) roughly 700 billion goes to welfare in one form or another (social security, medicaid, medicare, student subsudies, regular welfare). I am not opposed to this, as i think the purpose of government is to protect its citizens from harm. But given the choice i'd rather spend $1000 on a water purification system for a village of 500 in ethiopia than on T1 access for an inner city kid who doesn't want to be in school anyway.

Anyway, my point is that if americans were suffering that bad, we'd have 700 billion devoted to solving it. We got lucky living in the 1st world in this modern age. Our suffering is considered important.

2. & 3. My argument however, was that in our anti-racist society we make a big fuss about anti-semetic ethnic cleansing but ignore non anti-semetic ethnic cleansing. Selective compassion.
'If you're lucky enough to be a jew, we will give a shit. If not we won't.'

4. True. I'm just an armchair observer like everyone else so i have no idea how real world politics go. But i would rather live in a global society under the UN where billions was devoted to all the people & their problems, not just americans. Right now people in india are forced into lifelong slave labor contracts for a $60 debt, a onetime investment of $15 can give someone pure water for life, and $10 cycles of medication can prevent serious diseases. But for a variety of reasons, some i know i don't know about, we spend money instead on welfare for us. Billions to secure minor luxuries in america rather than millions to prevent serious problems in the 3rd world.

are we talking about american patriotism or compassion, because i dont believe the two are related. this country was founded on freedoms and peoples rights, not the fact that we give money to other countries, thats not patriotism. patriotism is the love that you have for this country for the very same reasons that it was founded and that millions of immigrants come here to enjoy.

building a water purfication system in ethiopia,or worrying about whether someone is a jew or not, and trying to prevent infectious diseases in a third world country has nonthing to do with patriotism. thats compassion.

live under a global society under the UN, are you serious? we live in a country that has approx. 300million people and we cant solve every problem, how in the hell are we gonna solve the worlds populations problem? you dont think the UN practices selective compassionism? problems are very complex and dynamic, i dont think your taking into account the other variables that cause problems. look where this country has come from in the short period of its existence. now compare that to other third world countries, there is a built in factor there. you wanna take money away from welfare recipients in the US and give it to welfare recipients in third world countries.

why dont we just live under a global communist society with one large bank account that everyone has a checkbook to?

you wanna take 700billion from one social program and give it to another , thats not solving the problem, thats playing the shell game. you dont think we would have major problems if you took that 700billion away from those programs???

 

[Lao Tzu]

1. My argument is that patriotism leads to selective compassion, which is why i am opposed to it.

2. true, but my argument is the reason we don't feel compassion is because they aren't americans.

3. I know we can't, nor do i expect that, but the UN would probably be more responsible than individual goverments.

4. don't get your point

5. i'm largely indifferent, my point was that patriotism seperates the world. It can work as a class system as well as give people a sense of pride.

I know little about politics as i know that my opinion won't change anything. But overall, a world where people cooperated rather than one where they segregated themselves by land appeals to me.

1. are we talking about american patriotism or compassion, because i dont believe the two are related. this country was founded on freedoms and peoples rights, not the fact that we give money to other countries, thats not patriotism. patriotism is the love that you have for this country for the very same reasons that it was founded and that millions of immigrants come here to enjoy.

2. building a water purfication system in ethiopia,or worrying about whether someone is a jew or not, and trying to prevent infectious diseases in a third world country has nonthing to do with patriotism. thats compassion.

3. live under a global society under the UN, are you serious? we live in a country that has approx. 300million people and we cant solve every problem, how in the hell are we gonna solve the worlds populations problem? you dont think the UN practices selective compassionism? problems are very complex and dynamic, i dont think your taking into account the other variables that cause problems. look where this country has come from in the short period of its existence. now compare that to other third world countries, there is a built in factor there. you wanna take money away from welfare recipients in the US and give it to welfare recipients in third world countries.

4. why dont we just live under a global communist society with one large bank account that everyone has a checkbook to?

5. you wanna take 700billion from one social program and give it to another , thats not solving the problem, thats playing the shell game. you dont think we would have major problems if you took that 700billion away from those programs???

 

[CBRF4]

You might get more pissed off if you knew that a lot of Poles built concentration camps in advance of the German onslaught in order to atempt to curry favor with the NAzis.

Are you reffering to Poles used as slave labour by the Nazis?
Who else was supposed to build them? None of the camps were built until Poland was occupied. I don't really know what to make of your statment.

 

[spongebob]

1. My argument is that patriotism leads to selective compassion, which is why i am opposed to it.

2. true, but my argument is the reason we don't feel compassion is because they aren't americans.

3. I know we can't, nor do i expect that, but the UN would probably be more responsible than individual goverments.

4. don't get your point

5. i'm largely indifferent, my point was that patriotism seperates the world. It can work as a class system as well as give people a sense of pride.

I know little about politics as i know that my opinion won't change anything. But overall, a world where people cooperated rather than one where they segregated themselves by land appeals to me.

1. i understand your point now, i just dont agree with it personally. i can have patriotism and not have compassion at all. my compassion doesnt stem from my patriotism. the two are totally seperate for me. as far as the general public, i dunno, but i do think people put too much responsibility on them. why does a family of five with 40 to 60 hour work weeks and after school activities and household chores have to care about a water purification system in ethiopia??? there simply is not enough time in the day to worry about the vast majority of the worlds problems when people have thier own problems to address. thats what people do, take care of thierselves first. like i said, problems are not solved easily and some problems dont want to be solved. do you not think at a time there was not a water purification system in this country. people solve problems, there are some people who do not solve problems. thats why this country has prospered, a large majority of people here care, and wanna be better.

2. hell, i dont always feel compassion for some americans.

3. more responsible??? whos responsibility is it, no one ever said it was the US's responsibility. i dont want it to be. its not. getting the global villages under one command will never happen.

4. my point was that if you wanna be under the UN, why not have all our money distributed evenly, and let them make the choices of who gets compassion.

5. on paper i agree with your point, but talking with real live individuals i dont get this perception from them. most people in america dont even think about patriotism and third world countries' problems. they just dont think into it that deep. thier just everyday people trying to make ends meat and raise a family. and im not suggesting anything about that or them, thats just a fact. thier happy they live in the US, thats about as deep as it gets. and the fact that when someone crashes planes into our buildings, that pisses them off. in some ways i think you are giving the american public too much credit and on the other hand i dont think you give them enough in some respect.

 

[huntmaster]

Patriotism is a good thing.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Are you reffering to Poles used as slave labour by the Nazis?
Who else was supposed to build them? None of the camps were built until Poland was occupied. I don't really know what to make of your statment.

No no no...Poles (a heavily Catholic people) built camps BEFORE they were enslaved, in order to appease the onrushing German war machine.

This sort of behavior was common at the time, as Polish people turned on Jews in their country to curry favor with Germany.

 

[CBRF4]

Matt, Please post some links to some articles, I would love to read up on the topic. Concentration camps were built primarily for Polish clergy, intellectuals etc and only later were used for jews. A good example is Auswitz which ran for almost 2 years before it 'guested' its first jews.
I'm sure there were many Poles who out of fear of there lives collaborated with the nazis. But this can be said about jews too, who do you think rounded up the jews in the ghettos? Jews weilding sticks and wearing badges who were promised lenient treatment for their cooperation.
The fact of the matter is that Poles were considered subhuman, just as the jews were, had to wear badges with the letter P at all times etc. And of course could be shot for no reason.


Another thing, so Poles are building these camps while Germany attacks, right? How long did it take to build one such camp and how long for Poland to be occupied?
I'm gonna go talk to my mom about this....

 

[IanStuart]

Someone needs to build a few camps here in America. Show your patriotism.

 

[buddy28]

but talking with real live individuals i dont get this perception from them. most people in america dont even think about patriotism and third world countries' problems. they just dont think into it that deep.

This is far fetched. Arguing that the worlds most technologically and financially advanced society just happens not to think about global issues, which, ironically, necessate significant cash expenditures for their resolution, is wishfull thinking.

Most Americans, or for that matter, Canadians, Europeans, or Saudi's dont give a shit about third world poverty because its human nature to be greedy and provide for yourself even after all your needs have been met.

Patrotism, or nationalism, is just an added measure which gives people an excuse not to adopt a global awareness and share a personal responsibility for the furtherment of humanity.

Sponge, reading between the lines u seem to be arguing America pulled itself up with its bootstraps. By its own ingenuity. If every country were given the equal oppurtunity to do this, youd probably find many more nations experiencing a level of domestic sophistication comparable to America. Historically, colionial occupation of African and South Asian colonies played a major role in retarding indigenous social growth, all the while exploiting the domestic economy. Colonialism milked african and South Asian countries, brought the wealth back to Jollly ol England, or France, with some of the proceeds being transferred to support the new World colony - America.


Yes, America was built in part by the hardwork of the orginal settlers. And yes, its a great country. But ignoring the role slaves and monetary proceeds from British colonies played in the development of America, gives an inaccurate, biased representation of the countries development.

This is whats wrong with patrotism. It encourages people to distort verified evidence to promote their own national ideology. In this case, Americas greatness due to its peoples ingenuity and hardwork. This beleif then gives you the moral authority to absolve yourself of a global responsibility since other nations *coudlve* enjoyed the same success's America enjoys had they not gotten off thier ass's and tried.

Just not the case.

 

[the nature boy]

Matt, Please post some links to some articles, I would love to read up on the topic. Concentration camps were built primarily for Polish clergy, intellectuals etc and only later were used for jews. A good example is Auswitz which ran for almost 2 years before it 'guested' its first jews.
I'm sure there were many Poles who out of fear of there lives collaborated with the nazis. But this can be said about jews too, who do you think rounded up the jews in the ghettos? Jews weilding sticks and wearing badges who were promised lenient treatment for their cooperation.
The fact of the matter is that Poles were considered subhuman, just as the jews were, had to wear badges with the letter P at all times etc. And of course could be shot for no reason.


Another thing, so Poles are building these camps while Germany attacks, right? How long did it take to build one such camp and how long for Poland to be occupied?
I'm gonna go talk to my mom about this....

bump, I'd like to hear this too.