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anyone try HMG?

iHulk said:
duly noted and thats why its good to hear both sides of the debate.
The questions you stated was my next response. Guess the verdict is still out on that one.

But I will say this; the T-E ratio is absolutely critical and its not just these compounds that can throw off the ratio and result in poor libido and sperm count, etc. Things like taking too many SERMs or AI can eff up the T-E ratio and absolutely choke your libido. I know I've overloaded a few times on aromasin and letro whilst being on Test. I blocked /killed too much E and put my sex life on hold. But I've gotten a lot smarter and knowing my body and haven't had the happen in a long time. Its all about the ratio, finding the balance like you said.

Absolutely! I've often brought the point up that the old timers used enough gear to win major contests and anti-e's hadn't been invented yet NOBODY HAD GYNO! (Not until Franco Columbo -- circa 73?)

Meanwhile I've read on boards where people actually believe you can't overdo SERMS. DUMB!

Estrogen is needed for heart health, bone density, HDL levels, libido and yes, muscle growth.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Absolutely! I've often brought the point up that the old timers used enough gear to win major contests and anti-e's hadn't been invented yet NOBODY HAD GYNO! (Not until Franco Columbo -- circa 73?)

Meanwhile I've read on boards where people actually believe you can't overdo SERMS. DUMB!

Estrogen is needed for heart health, bone density, HDL levels, libido and yes, muscle growth.


Bro, so what do you recommend for pct and to maintian gains post cycle?
 
Nelson Montana said:
Absolutely! I've often brought the point up that the old timers used enough gear to win major contests and anti-e's hadn't been invented yet NOBODY HAD GYNO! (Not until Franco Columbo -- circa 73?)

Meanwhile I've read on boards where people actually believe you can't overdo SERMS. DUMB!

Estrogen is needed for heart health, bone density, HDL levels, libido and yes, muscle growth.
definitely overdoing the SERMs takes away gains as well. They have their place no doubt but often the effects of those can be worse than that of the anabolics. The HMG seems like the way to get the testes normal production going a lot faster and more effective than the traditional Nolv/Clomid/HCG therapy.
 
Stryker1992 said:
Bro, so what do you recommend for pct and to maintian gains post cycle?

It depends. I absolutely hate Clomid but accept that if it works for you, it works for you. But I do question peoples perception of the effectiveness of many substances. Since Clomid is a legit method to restore T, I can't discount it. I just know that it can backfire.

Other factors include...

1) What you're taking.

I see guys taking EQ, Tren, Deca and Var and then loading up on anti-e's which is completely unnecessary. None of those drugs convert to estrogen.

2) How much you're taking.

If dosages aren't out of control you may not need any ae's at all. I designed "Post Cycle" for guys using prohormones and everyone who ever used it recovered nicely with no problems. Combining natural supps with a touch of A-dex is best during a cycle AND afterward in most cases.

3) Duration

If you're on for more than 12 weeks, HCG is the way to go, but again, most guys use too much. 500iu's a day for 3 days is enough in many cases. Taking HCG throughout a cycle is not a good idea IMO.

4) Gyno

Some guys never get gyno. They don't have the genetic capability. Why use Nolva if you don't have to? On the other hand, I believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If you get gyno, try avoiding what's giving it to you instead of trying to correct the problem afterward. Nolva sucks. It does nothing but hinder gains. Even as a gyno preventer, it can have a rebound effect. But again, guys take it because they've been told to take it and by doing so presume they're playing it safe.

Someone mentioned (sorry, forgot the name) recently about "getting a feel for steroids." That is perfect advice. It should be the Elite Fitness maxim. Overlooking that factor is the biggest mistake I see people making. Nobody knows what is doing what. They put together a bunch of stuff, call it a "cutter" or a "bulker" or a whatever, ask for some opinions -- get some half assed commentary from strangers -- and think they're being responsible.

The same goes for anti-e's. How much do you really need? Too many newbies don't seem to have time to learn. It's all overkill followed by "Help me out bros!" (Not you Stryker, I know you're not a newbie).

Sorry if I didn't answer the question directly. As I said, it depends on a lot of conditions.
 
georgie24 said:
well said nelson!

these fads have come from afar and stuck!

i hate clomid but dont want to use HCG ED either
I agree, I can't stand clomid. Never use it anymore. HCG in small dose like Nelson said @ 500 i.u eod for 3-10 days after a long cycle is the most I've ever needed. The Nolv has helped reduced puffy nipples and the letro just knocks your cock out of order.

The a-dex and/or aromasin on cycle along with Proviron have made all my PCT a cinch. But there is one side that cannot be battled that effectively and that is progesterone / prolactin sides. Cabergoline (sp?) is about as close as you'll get to fight that.... which brings me back to HMG. If your nuts are shrunk, you're feeling shutdown and your free T, LH and FSH are low or not producing -this could be a very good relatively new drug thats gaining some notoriety.

bye the way, nice post response Nelson. Nicely thought out.
 
Last edited:
ok so whats the new protocal? ( PCT)

i have everything i need to start next week

nelson what do you think about cyclofenil????
 
georgie24 said:
ok so whats the new protocal? ( PCT)

i have everything i need to start next week

nelson what do you think about cyclofenil????

Can you still get cyclo? I've used it back in the day and liked it -- which is strange since it's supposed to be almost identical to Clomid, yet it had the complete opposite effect on me. ( I've tested both many times and under various conditions -- PC, during, inbetween cycles. Always the same result).
 
Nelson, you mention that depending on the dosages of aromatising compounds in a cycle, you may not need an anti-estrogen. Up to what dosage of tesosoterone would you expect no anti-e to be required?

I have tried anti-e's in many different types and at many different dosages in the hope it will prevent water retention for me whilst using aromatising steroids, however, no combination seems to do so. Would this suggest my susceptibility to water retention is more down to diet (sodium intake?)

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks.

Nelson Montana said:
Not so fast.

What sounds great often isn't. For one thing, increasing LH also means increasing estrogen. I'll get back to this is a second.

Allow me to digress a bit into manipulating LH naturally.

The fact that LH secretion increases estrogen is the reason why tribulus was such a bust in older guys and those supressed from cycles. Yes, it slightly increased LH but if the body is unable to make enough testosterone, an increase in LH will send the T/e balance out of whack. There are natural supps that increase LH much better than trib (i.e. MyogenX) but that's why I suggest taking something along with it that increases "free testosterone." Of course I believe the best supp for that is "Unleashed" but you can also use the ingredients seperately. Using a natural free T booster along with a natural LH booster is not only a nice thing for "natties" but it can enhance a cycle as well.

Okay, back to HMG.

First off, by increasing LH, you need an anti e (which can hinder gains). Secondly, since HMG decreases cholesterol it may also decrease testosterone, since T is made form cholesterol. More e, less T. Ain't sounding so great now is it? Below is a study where the use of HMG killed libido in its subjects.

Maybe if you asked macro he'd tell you AF is coming out with a homebrew version of HMG made by god knows who with god knows what. Hell, if it's hot and people are interested there's money to be made. Fortunately not everybody operates that way.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. But it's better than perpetuating harmful information or capitalizing on misinformation.




Br J Clin Pharmacol
58
:3 326–328 326 © 2004 Blackwell Publishing Ltd
British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology
DOI:10.1111/j.1365-2125.2004.02128.x
Is decreased libido associated with the use of
HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors?
L. de Graaf, A. H. P. M. Brouwers
Eight patients were identified as having decreased libido during use of statins. In two
of these cases testosterone levels were determined and appeared to be decreased.
Conclusion
Decreased libido is a probable adverse drug reaction of HMG-CoA-reductase-inhibitors
and is reversible. The ADR may be caused by low serum testosterone levels, mainly
due to intracellular cholesterol depletion.
Introduction
Hydroxymethylglutaryl-coenzyme-A-reductase (HMGCoA-
reductase) inhibitors, or statins, are widely used
for the treatment of hypercholesterolaemia. The
most severe adverse drug reactions associated with
HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors are myopathy and
disturbances in hepatic function. Meanwhile, there is
increasing evidence in the literature that sexual disorders
may also occur during therapy with these drugs
[1].
The Netherlands Pharmacovigilance Centre Lareb,
which maintains the spontaneous reporting system for
adverse drug reactions in the Netherlands, received
eight reports of decreased libido during the use of
statins.
Reports
Patient A is a 46-year-old male with symptomatic familial
hypercholesterolaemia (increased
a
lipoprotein),
with a serum cholesterol of 7.1 mmol l
-
). At this time his cholesterol level had
decreased to 5.9 mmol l
-
1
. Fluvastatin was withdrawn
and 5 days later testosterone had increased to
13.2 nmol l
-
1
(morning value). The patient’s libido had
also returned to normal. The man concomitantly used
aspirin 80 mg daily.
Patient B, a 54-year-old male, started treatment with
pravastatin for nonfamilial hypercholesterolaemia
(cholesterol 6.1 mmol l
-
1
). Within days after initiation
of this therapy, he experienced a decrease in his libido.
His testosterone level was determined at 5.8 nmol l
-
1
(morning value), while his total cholesterol level had
decreased to 4.5 mmol l
-
1
. Pravastatin was discontinued
7 months later, and after a few days his libido
returned to normal. Four months later, testosterone
level was determined again and had risen to
22.8 nmol l
-
1
(morning value). The patient used concomitantly
aspirin 80 mg daily, diltiazem 200 mg
daily, ramipril 1.25 mg daily and isosorbidemononitrate
60 mg daily.
Lareb received six more reports concerning a
decreased libido in association with the use of statins,
one of them concerning a woman (Table 1). In none of
the reports on men were testosterone levels determined.
In three cases the outcome is known: two patients recovered
after withdrawal of the suspected drug and one
recovered after switching to another HMG-CoAreductase
inhibitor.
Discussion
Libido is related to serum testosterone levels: lower
testosterone levels decrease male libido [2]. Testosterone
in males is produced mainly in the Leydig cells,
where cholesterol is the main substrate. The Leydig cells
can absorb cholesterol from the blood via the LDLreceptor,
but are also capable of
de novo
cholesterol
synthesis [3]. Statins may interfere with the synthesis of
testosterone in three ways.
First, by decreasing plasma LDL-cholesterol, HMGCoA-
reductase inhibitors lower the total amount of cholesterol
offered to the Leydig cell. Taking into account
the amount of cholesterol in the blood, it is unlikely that
this decrease will have a significant effect. In familial
hypercholesterolaemia (patient A), the LDL-receptor is
malfunctioning [4, 5], which makes the Leydig cell
more dependent on
de novo
synthesis of cholesterol.
Statins are rather liver selective, but are found in small
quantities in the testes, where they can inhibit the
de
novo
synthesis of cholesterol out of acetate by HMGCoA-
reductase [6].
Finally, high-dose simvastatin, and possibly other
statins, directly suppress testosterone synthesis by
inhibiting the 17-ketosteroid-oxidoreductase catalysed
conversion from dehydroepiandrosterone and dehydroandrostenedione
to androstenediol and testosterone,
respectively [7].
Since cholesterol is necessary for the synthesis of
testosterone, the effects of statins on testosterone levels
have been the subject of several investigations. Most of
these studies could not demonstrate a significant decrease
Table 1
Characteristics of reports of decreased libido in association with the use of HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors in the Lareb database
of adverse drug reactions
 
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