anyone try HMG?

[Nelson Montana]

i haven't started this yet. . .soon, though. . .but, honestly, i've never had much trouble keeping things in check (bloat-wise) with a clean diet and ample cardio. . .i've used nolva throughout a cycle like this too, and i'm just wondering if maybe it has the potential to inhibit my gains. . .i have letro, nolva and arimidex around. . .

Nolva will hinder gains. It all comes down to your propensity for gyno. If you need it, you need it. If you don't , it's a waste.

If you can keep the bloat down with cardio, fine. (Wear a sweat belt, it'll help). I'd suggest using 1/2 mg of a-dex EOD along with some natural anti-e's. "Post Cycle" contains what believe to be the 3 best --Calcium D Clucarate, Chrysin and Bioperine. That should be plenty. And it won't kill your libido. In fact, it'll boost it.

Keep an eye on the nips. If they don't bother you you'll make better gains with this protocol. Adding some proviron (or Winny -- they both increase DHT which prevents aromatization) would be extra insurence and produce a harder look while "on."

 

[Primordial Performance]

Ive always thought vitex to be a good sup, so Im going to look into those points.

The chaste berry is a funny name, and Ive always wondered about its true meaning. Ive always had crazy libido from vitex, or atleast for a few weeks...

I do know the vitex has anti-prolactin effects which should mean it decreases progesterone... but we have to be careful when interpreting results from females (ovaries) and applying those same results to men (testis).

-Pp

 

[iHulk]

good discussion

-and not 1 person gave me K for starting it

 

[Nelson Montana]

Ive always thought vitex to be a good sup, so Im going to look into those points.

The chaste berry is a funny name, and Ive always wondered about its true meaning. Ive always had crazy libido from vitex, or atleast for a few weeks...

I do know the vitex has anti-prolactin effects which should mean it decreases progesterone... but we have to be careful when interpreting results from females (ovaries) and applying those same results to men (testis).

-Pp

That's the funny thing with hormonal flucuation. Sometimes a boost of one or the other can supress or increase libido. If you're low in prog, a little boost might increase libido but in most cases it will supress it. Most women lose libido when they go on the pill but a few who are estrogen deficient may get a boost. Then again, sometimes a boost or loss of libido has absolutely nothing to do with what you're taking at all. It's biorhythms, mood, psychology, stress, sleep, etc,etc etc. Naturally if you take something and experience an effect you're going to attribute it to what you're taking. This is what makes drawing conclusions so speculative with the whole process.

True, vitex lowers prolactin which is very appealing to bodybuilders doing cycles but other natural remedies lower prolactin better -- most notably Ginsing, Mucana puriens and Sam-e. I set out to design an "Anti Prolactin" supplement using these ingredients ( called it "Pro-Tect") but it was shelved due to the fact that the audience for it is so small. My other supps are all geared for bodybuilders and I know that's a limited audience as well. Things that raise free testosterone or work as PCT aren't exactly of interest to the general public but guys who understand those principles will use them. But an anti-prolactin is just too arcane. Maybe someday. In the meantime, you can put those ingredients together yourself. They work.

By the way, anyone doing a blood test should get prolactin levels checked and it should be under 10ng/mL.

And somebody give iHulk some karma.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Oh, and another thing...

Don't take 5 HTP.

It helps with sleep by increasing serotonin levels, but increased serotoin raises prolactin.

Dopamine decreases it. Mucana Puriens increases dopamine and is used in treatment of Parkensons. It's essentially an herbal version of Bromocriptine and should be used sparingly.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Absolutely! I've often brought the point up that the old timers used enough gear to win major contests and anti-e's hadn't been invented yet NOBODY HAD GYNO! (Not until Franco Columbo -- circa 73?)

Meanwhile I've read on boards where people actually believe you can't overdo SERMS. DUMB!

Estrogen is needed for heart health, bone density, HDL levels, libido and yes, muscle growth.

I agree here. This is why if you read my profile on Letro from steroid.com (2 years ago), I have a very different take on it from my profile on MesoRx (2 months ago).

I actually lowered my estrogen so much trying to get rid of Gyno that I injured my knee and had no immune system. People just go nuts with unhealthy AIs.

The thing that kills me is that when someone starts to get gyno or bloating from their steroids, they throw in an AI.

Here's the reasoning, as far as I see it:

"I don't want to lessen my steroid assisted gains (by lowering the dose)...so I will add in an AI (and thereby lessen my gains by lowering estrogen)."

 

[iHulk]

good stuff Nelson --
Where could one get the ingredients OTC to build this anti-prolactin regimen:
"Ginsing, Mucana puriens and Sam-e"

That's the funny thing with hormonal flucuation. Sometimes a boost of one or the other can supress or increase libido. If you're low in prog, a little boost might increase libido but in most cases it will supress it.

True, vitex lowers prolactin which is very appealing to bodybuilders doing cycles but other natural remedies lower prolactin better -- most notably Ginsing, Mucana puriens and Sam-e. I set out to design an "Anti Prolactin" supplement using these ingredients ( called it "Pro-Tect") but it was shelved due to the fact that the audience for it is so small. My other supps are all geared for bodybuilders and I know that's a limited audience as well. Things that raise free testosterone or work as PCT aren't exactly of interest to the general public but guys who understand those principles will use them. But an anti-prolactin is just too arcane. Maybe someday. In the meantime, you can put those ingredients together yourself. They work.

By the way, anyone doing a blood test should get prolactin levels checked and it should be under 10ng/mL.

And somebody give iHulk some karma.

Also regarding what you said here about prolactin being elevated from increased serotonin; would things like "sominex" (sleep aid) which has Diphenhydramine HCI 25mg in it cause serotonin levels to be raised? Could things like that possibly cause a raised prolactin effect??

Oh, and another thing...

Don't take 5 HTP.

It helps with sleep by increasing serotonin levels, but increased serotoin raises prolactin.

Dopamine decreases it. Mucana Puriens increases dopamine and is used in treatment of Parkensons. It's essentially an herbal version of Bromocriptine and should be used sparingly.

 

[iHulk]

I agree here. This is why if you read my profile on Letro from steroid.com (2 years ago), I have a very different take on it from my profile on MesoRx (2 months ago).

I actually lowered my estrogen so much trying to get rid of Gyno that I injured my knee and had no immune system. People just go nuts with unhealthy AIs.

The thing that kills me is that when someone starts to get gyno or bloating from their steroids, they throw in an AI.

Here's the reasoning, as far as I see it:

"I don't want to lessen my steroid assisted gains (by lowering the dose)...so I will add in an AI (and thereby lessen my gains by lowering estrogen)."

if you have low or virtually zero estro levels will that increase the damage to soft tissue (tendons ligaments,etc)?

 

[Nelson Montana]

good stuff Nelson --
Where could one get the ingredients OTC to build this anti-prolactin regimen:
"Ginsing, Mucana puriens and Sam-e"


Also regarding what you said here about prolactin being elevated from increased serotonin; would things like "sominex" (sleep aid) which has Diphenhydramine HCI 25mg in it cause serotonin levels to be raised? Could things like that possibly cause a raised prolactin effect??

Good question. There's actually evidence that diphenhydramine inhibits the uptake of serotonin. But don't think that low serotonin levels are good. You need a balance.

Sleep aids are weird. Is it better to toss and turn and go through a day fatiqued or is taking a aid that'll give you a solid nights sleep (and GH release) better? But of course, there's the dependancy issue. Tough call, though Diphen isn't extremely habit forming. Not "physically", at least.

The thing with 5 HPT directly affecting serotonin cause a jump in prolactin.

I'm sure you can track down those ingredients with a search.

BTW: Tylenol PM is just Tylenol with sominex.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

if you have low or virtually zero estro levels will that increase the damage to soft tissue (tendons ligaments,etc)?

Yes. Badly. Check out my article "Deca, Winstrol, and your joints"

(it's on www.anthony-roberts.com )