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anyone try HMG?

iHulk

New member
HMG -could be the ultimate for PCT. It appers to be from what I've been reading and researching; this stuff is the ultimate in bringing LH and FSH levels back to normal and therefore no need for HCG at all. HCG only mimics LH secretion where this actually creates LH and FSH secretion.



"Thirty-seven patients who underwent assisted reproductive technology programme, in vitro fertilisation or embryo transfer and gamete intra-fallopian transfer, were randomised into two groups in order to evaluate frequency of premature spontaneous LH surge when stimulated with different type of hMG. An hMG (FSH:LH = 1:1) was administered for eighteen patients (group A) and the different highly purified hMG (FSH:LH = 19:1) was administered for nineteen patients (group B). Blood samples are drawn from day 3 of the cycle until hCG administration, and serum LH level are measured in the frozen samples. There were no statistical difference in the total amount of hMG used before hCG injection, days of hMG injection and the number of oocytes retrieved between two groups. The premature spontaneous LH surge occurred only one patient in group A (5.6%), but more frequent LH surge was observed in group B (42.1%) (p < 0.05). It is suggested that the different FSH/LH ratio may be the reason for the difference of the incidence of premature spontaneous LH surge."
 
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its way more expensive than HCG but also way more effective; wheres Macro when you need 'em?
 
Not so fast.

What sounds great often isn't. For one thing, increasing LH also means increasing estrogen. I'll get back to this is a second.

Allow me to digress a bit into manipulating LH naturally.

The fact that LH secretion increases estrogen is the reason why tribulus was such a bust in older guys and those supressed from cycles. Yes, it slightly increased LH but if the body is unable to make enough testosterone, an increase in LH will send the T/e balance out of whack. There are natural supps that increase LH much better than trib (i.e. MyogenX) but that's why I suggest taking something along with it that increases "free testosterone." Of course I believe the best supp for that is "Unleashed" but you can also use the ingredients seperately. Using a natural free T booster along with a natural LH booster is not only a nice thing for "natties" but it can enhance a cycle as well.

Okay, back to HMG.

First off, by increasing LH, you need an anti e (which can hinder gains). Secondly, since HMG decreases cholesterol it may also decrease testosterone, since T is made form cholesterol. More e, less T. Ain't sounding so great now is it? Below is a study where the use of HMG killed libido in its subjects.

Maybe if you asked macro he'd tell you AF is coming out with a homebrew version of HMG made by god knows who with god knows what. Hell, if it's hot and people are interested there's money to be made. Fortunately not everybody operates that way.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. But it's better than perpetuating harmful information or capitalizing on misinformation.




Br J Clin Pharmacol
58
:3 326–328 326 © 2004 Blackwell Publishing Ltd
British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology
DOI:10.1111/j.1365-2125.2004.02128.x
Is decreased libido associated with the use of
HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors?
L. de Graaf, A. H. P. M. Brouwers
Eight patients were identified as having decreased libido during use of statins. In two
of these cases testosterone levels were determined and appeared to be decreased.
Conclusion
Decreased libido is a probable adverse drug reaction of HMG-CoA-reductase-inhibitors
and is reversible. The ADR may be caused by low serum testosterone levels, mainly
due to intracellular cholesterol depletion.
Introduction
Hydroxymethylglutaryl-coenzyme-A-reductase (HMGCoA-
reductase) inhibitors, or statins, are widely used
for the treatment of hypercholesterolaemia. The
most severe adverse drug reactions associated with
HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors are myopathy and
disturbances in hepatic function. Meanwhile, there is
increasing evidence in the literature that sexual disorders
may also occur during therapy with these drugs
[1].
The Netherlands Pharmacovigilance Centre Lareb,
which maintains the spontaneous reporting system for
adverse drug reactions in the Netherlands, received
eight reports of decreased libido during the use of
statins.
Reports
Patient A is a 46-year-old male with symptomatic familial
hypercholesterolaemia (increased
a
lipoprotein),
with a serum cholesterol of 7.1 mmol l
-
). At this time his cholesterol level had
decreased to 5.9 mmol l
-
1
. Fluvastatin was withdrawn
and 5 days later testosterone had increased to
13.2 nmol l
-
1
(morning value). The patient’s libido had
also returned to normal. The man concomitantly used
aspirin 80 mg daily.
Patient B, a 54-year-old male, started treatment with
pravastatin for nonfamilial hypercholesterolaemia
(cholesterol 6.1 mmol l
-
1
). Within days after initiation
of this therapy, he experienced a decrease in his libido.
His testosterone level was determined at 5.8 nmol l
-
1
(morning value), while his total cholesterol level had
decreased to 4.5 mmol l
-
1
. Pravastatin was discontinued
7 months later, and after a few days his libido
returned to normal. Four months later, testosterone
level was determined again and had risen to
22.8 nmol l
-
1
(morning value). The patient used concomitantly
aspirin 80 mg daily, diltiazem 200 mg
daily, ramipril 1.25 mg daily and isosorbidemononitrate
60 mg daily.
Lareb received six more reports concerning a
decreased libido in association with the use of statins,
one of them concerning a woman (Table 1). In none of
the reports on men were testosterone levels determined.
In three cases the outcome is known: two patients recovered
after withdrawal of the suspected drug and one
recovered after switching to another HMG-CoAreductase
inhibitor.
Discussion
Libido is related to serum testosterone levels: lower
testosterone levels decrease male libido [2]. Testosterone
in males is produced mainly in the Leydig cells,
where cholesterol is the main substrate. The Leydig cells
can absorb cholesterol from the blood via the LDLreceptor,
but are also capable of
de novo
cholesterol
synthesis [3]. Statins may interfere with the synthesis of
testosterone in three ways.
First, by decreasing plasma LDL-cholesterol, HMGCoA-
reductase inhibitors lower the total amount of cholesterol
offered to the Leydig cell. Taking into account
the amount of cholesterol in the blood, it is unlikely that
this decrease will have a significant effect. In familial
hypercholesterolaemia (patient A), the LDL-receptor is
malfunctioning [4, 5], which makes the Leydig cell
more dependent on
de novo
synthesis of cholesterol.
Statins are rather liver selective, but are found in small
quantities in the testes, where they can inhibit the
de
novo
synthesis of cholesterol out of acetate by HMGCoA-
reductase [6].
Finally, high-dose simvastatin, and possibly other
statins, directly suppress testosterone synthesis by
inhibiting the 17-ketosteroid-oxidoreductase catalysed
conversion from dehydroepiandrosterone and dehydroandrostenedione
to androstenediol and testosterone,
respectively [7].
Since cholesterol is necessary for the synthesis of
testosterone, the effects of statins on testosterone levels
have been the subject of several investigations. Most of
these studies could not demonstrate a significant decrease
Table 1
Characteristics of reports of decreased libido in association with the use of HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors in the Lareb database
of adverse drug reactions
 
georgie24 said:
by experience nelson, HMG is extremely good...you should try it

I'd be curious to hear your experiences. I'm not doubting you but I also know the power of placebo AND THAT ISN'T MEANT AS AN INSULT. EVERYONE is suseptable to it. Including me. For example, if someone has no problem with estro sides and they take a sugar pill thinking it's an anti e and don't experience side effects it's very possible to believe the pill "worked." There's no way of knowing for sure. Incidentally, I think this the basis of homeopathy. It does absolutley nothing but if the patient believes it's helping a little a they seem to recover a little faster they're convinced it worked. Homeopathy can not work. But millions of people think it does. Millions of people think prayer works and there's no way of convincing them otherwise. Hell, I've seen guys grow on fake gear.

A few years back everyone thought saw palmetto was a libido booster. Now it's known to be an anti androgen. How can people see something that actually caused more harm as benificial? The power of belief. Or wishful thinking.

Of course I always like to keep the door open to possibilities. No one has all the answers -- certainly not me, but from what I'm seeing about HMG, it all falls in the wrong direction. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong. Just sayin'.
 
HCG causes estrogen as well; its a major culprit of oestrogen gyno. One often has to take Nolvadex or Clomid or Letro when administering HCG, so whats the difference of HMG converting to estro as a byproduct of boosting free Test, LH, FSH? The answer lies in the fact that HMG is actual FSH and LH. Not mimicing it. Therefore libido theoretically should be lifted as well.

HCG can clog the receptors in your nuts and make LH secrection virtually worthless if the receptors cannot convert to T.
 
iHulk said:
HCG causes estrogen as well; its a major culprit of oestrogen gyno. One often has to take Nolvadex or Clomid or Letro when administering HCG, so whats the difference of HMG converting to estro as a byproduct of boosting free Test, LH, FSH? The answer lies in the fact that HMG is actual FSH and LH. Not mimicing it. Therefore libido theoretically should be lifted as well.

HCG can clog the receptors in your nuts and make LH secrection virtually worthless if the receptors cannot convert to T.

True. I should have made it clear that the LH issue was a separate one.

As for HCG "clogging the nuts"...okay, it desensitizes the ledig cells. (Same thing). But that's only if it's overdone. I believe most guys use way too much HCG. The recommeneded dosages were made to elicit pregnancy in women.

However, increased LH does not mean increased libido if the estrogen spike surpasses the testosterone spike. And what the study below indictated was that HMG caused a decrease in T. This is not empirical evidence. It's proven. Now, was the decrease due to increased estrogen? Or was it due to decresed cholesterol? Or was it something else? Hard to say. It's all speculation to a point. I'm just offering another way of looking at it.

Too often people see one side of an issue and draw a conclusion -- usually the one they want.
 
duly noted and thats why its good to hear both sides of the debate.
The questions you stated was my next response. Guess the verdict is still out on that one.

But I will say this; the T-E ratio is absolutely critical and its not just these compounds that can throw off the ratio and result in poor libido and sperm count, etc. Things like taking too many SERMs or AI can eff up the T-E ratio and absolutely choke your libido. I know I've overloaded a few times on aromasin and letro whilst being on Test. I blocked /killed too much E and put my sex life on hold. But I've gotten a lot smarter and knowing my body and haven't had the happen in a long time. Its all about the ratio, finding the balance like you said.

Nelson Montana said:
True. I should have made it clear that the LH issue was a separate one.

As for HCG "clogging the nuts"...okay, it desensitizes the ledig cells. (Same thing). But that's only if it's overdone. I believe most guys use way too much HCG. The recommeneded dosages were made to elicit pregnancy in women.

However, increased LH does not mean increased libido if the estrogen spike surpasses the testosterone spike. And what the study below indictated was that HMG caused a decrease in T. This is not empirical evidence. It's proven. Now, was the decrease due to increased estrogen? Or was it due to decresed cholesterol? Or was it something else? Hard to say. It's all speculation to a point. I'm just offering another way of looking at it.

Too often people see one side of an issue and draw a conclusion -- usually the one they want.
 
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