Anyone do the 5x5 and only squat twice week?

[atp1000]

In another thread I mentioned I was getting cramps and soreness in my calves and hammies since starting the 5x5. In Madcows description, he says this can occur if your muscles are not conditioned to take the high amount of frequency. Thus, I was thinking of backing off (per Madcow's suggestion) by squatting 2 times a week to see if I feel better. I would then increase the frequency back to 3x maybe by week 4 or 5.

First, has anyone dropped the frequency down to 2x a week?

Thoughts?

 

[thegoodfoods]

You'll get used to it

 

[Cynical Simian]

In your other thread you said you just started the program last week. Conditioning usually improves markedly by week 2-3, so you might want to give yourself a chance to get used to it before resorting to dropping to twice per week. madcow's caution, IIRC, was mainly about overuse issues (e.g., tendinitis) rather than what you've been describing.

 

[NJL52]

Whats your lifting experience and your work set weight?

A 3x5 might be more proper for you.

 

[atp1000]

Whats your lifting experience and your work set weight?

A 3x5 might be more proper for you.

I have been lifting for 2 years now working one body part per week. Thus, squatting once a week. Legs are my only issue so far. My upper body was has been fine and feeling great.

 

[NJL52]

Stats?
Height, weight, squat pr, bench pr, deadlift pr etc.

 

[atp1000]

Stats?
Height, weight, squat pr, bench pr, deadlift pr etc.

5'9
158 lbs (started at 137 lbs)

5 REP MAXES
Squat 155
Bench 145
Row 115
Dead 180
Military 95

 

[Lone Trooper]

You can get away with squatting 2x a week, sure. Squatting 3x, plus deadlifting, plus rows, plus OHP is a LOT of work for the lower back. Don't be a hero - back off on some of it until you adjust. Honestly, Glenn and the others build their guys up to that kind've volume anyway - you don't want to jump right into it. Start at 2x a week, the deadlifts stay on Wednesday, and maybe do a chest-supported row in the beginning.

I'm conservative when it comes to lower backs - injury sucks, and they get enough work from all the lifts as it is. You don't need to impress anyone here.

 

[atp1000]

You can get away with squatting 2x a week, sure. Squatting 3x, plus deadlifting, plus rows, plus OHP is a LOT of work for the lower back. Don't be a hero - back off on some of it until you adjust. Honestly, Glenn and the others build their guys up to that kind've volume anyway - you don't want to jump right into it. Start at 2x a week, the deadlifts stay on Wednesday, and maybe do a chest-supported row in the beginning.

I'm conservative when it comes to lower backs - injury sucks, and they get enough work from all the lifts as it is. You don't need to impress anyone here.

Trooper, thats a good point about the volume. I mean, prior to the 5x5, I was doing a total of 10 to 12 sets for legs...3-4 coming only from squats, per week. I have now jumped to 15 sets for legs a week, all from squats.

 

[Lone Trooper]

Trooper, thats a good point about the volume. I mean, prior to the 5x5, I was doing a total of 10 to 12 sets for legs...3-4 coming only from squats, per week. I have now jumped to 15 sets for legs a week, all from squats.

Of course it's a good point, I made it. Work up to it slowly, no need to jump right in. You should probably try my modified beginner 3x5. Here it is:

Session A
Back Squat - 3x5
Flat Bench - 3x5
Lying Row - 3x5
Reverse Hyper - 3x10
Ivanko - 3x5

Session B
Romanian Deadlift - 3x5
Standing OHP - 3x5
Chinup - 3x5
Power Shrug - 3x10
External Rotation - 2x15

Alternate M/W/F. Try to increase every workout. Start very conservatively. You can sub in whatever compounds you wish, those are just the ones I chose. Also, the Ivanko grip work and power shrugs aren't necessary, they were my preference for people I've trained though.

I do recommend reverse hypers and external rotations though. Good for lower back and shoulder prehab. You can add in come calf or arm work in place of the shrugs or grip work. It's flexible enough, but don't detract from the main point - making progress on the 3x5 lifts.

 

[atp1000]

Of course it's a good point, I made it. Work up to it slowly, no need to jump right in. You should probably try my modified beginner 3x5. Here it is:

Session A
Back Squat - 3x5
Flat Bench - 3x5
Lying Row - 3x5
Reverse Hyper - 3x10
Ivanko - 3x5

Session B
Romanian Deadlift - 3x5
Standing OHP - 3x5
Chinup - 3x5
Power Shrug - 3x10
External Rotation - 2x15

Alternate M/W/F. Try to increase every workout. Start very conservatively. You can sub in whatever compounds you wish, those are just the ones I chose. Also, the Ivanko grip work and power shrugs aren't necessary, they were my preference for people I've trained though.

I do recommend reverse hypers and external rotations though. Good for lower back and shoulder prehab. You can add in come calf or arm work in place of the shrugs or grip work. It's flexible enough, but don't detract from the main point - making progress on the 3x5 lifts.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will give some thought.

 

[Lone Trooper]

Thanks for the suggestion. I will give some thought.

Danger Will Robinson, Danger!

Thinking leads to problems. Just do it.







I'm fucking serious too, don't overthink any of this. Training is SUCH a simple thing. The only time it gets complex is when you need to deal with advanced athletes who need to improve in certain time frames. Those guys make careers from this shit. They need more complicated approaches. The average layperson won't need any micromanaging like that.

Eat. Train. Sleep. That's it. Don't look for a holy grail. Don't start with any "what ifs?"

 

[bigred133]

just do the program

 

[Cynical Simian]

I agree with Lone Trooper that you might be able to make faster progress on a 3x5-style program and that it can't hurt to be cautious. However, unless you are prone to back injuries or let imbalances develop, I don't think the lower back demands of a MWF program with a squat, press and pull on each day are unreasonable. The regular 3x5, with three squats per week, is what Rippetoe uses with a lot of beginning lifters.

 

[atp1000]

I agree with Lone Trooper that you might be able to make faster progress on a 3x5-style program and that it can't hurt to be cautious. However, unless you are prone to back injuries or let imbalances develop, I don't think the lower back demands of a MWF program with a squat, press and pull on each day are unreasonable. The regular 3x5, with three squats per week, is what Rippetoe uses with a lot of beginning lifters.

Thanks Simian. I dont have any lower back issues, nor do I feel that this program is hard on my lower back. I am only having leg issues and they are not DOMS, more like light cramping and aching.

When I started lifting, my legs where chicken legs and by far the weakest link in my body. While they are bigger now, it still is the weakest. Also, I think going from a squatting 1x a week to 3x was a little too much. Now I plan on working up to squatting 3x a week, but I think I should work up to it.

Regarding the 3x5, do you know where I can find a template that requires squatting 3x a week? My only reservation about the 3x5 is that I am feeling very good about the 5x5 and my upper body. I feel that reducing my volume by 4 sets a week for Rows and Bench would be to little of work.

 

[cougar2003]

I am doing the 3x5 right now and have been on it for about a month now and trust me, it is not a weak program. I went from 5 a day schedule to the 3 day split and worried about it being weak too, but it isn't. If you do it right with full intensity, it will definitely kick your ass.

Here is a link to the 3x5:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=712752

 

[NJL52]

Judging from your numbers, 100% do a 3x5 over a 5x5.

Order the book Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore and study it like the Pope does the Bible.

You'll be bigger 5 months from now by using the 3x5 then you would be using the 5x5.

 

[atp1000]

Judging from your numbers, 100% do a 3x5 over a 5x5.

Order the book Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore and study it like the Pope does the Bible.

You'll be bigger 5 months from now by using the 3x5 then you would be using the 5x5.

Ok, lets say I do go with the 3x5, is this the version that has you squatting 3x a week (like Cynical mentioned) or the 2x a week that Cougar posted above?

Thanks for all of your help.

 

[cougar2003]

Ok, lets say I do go with the 3x5, is this the version that has you squatting 3x a week (like Cynical mentioned) or the 2x a week that Cougar posted above?

Thanks for all of your help.

The one I posted is 3x a week.

 

[atp1000]

The one I posted is 3x a week.

Good call.

 

[Lone Trooper]

Judging from your numbers, 100% do a 3x5 over a 5x5.

Order the book Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore and study it like the Pope does the Bible.

You'll be bigger 5 months from now by using the 3x5 then you would be using the 5x5.

Numbers have nothing to do with it.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

my legs were sore as hell and hurting for about 3 weeks (3x week squatting)... after that I could squat and not be sore at all. Conditioning may take less or more time for you.

Once you have the conditioning, it's awesome to be able to go in and hit PR's and not be sore the next day

 

[bigred133]

1. The soreness is expected. Give it time. Maybe even a few months.

2. Additional soreness may be caused by not squatting correctly. Not going deep enough, not keeping the knees WAY OUT over the toes, and not driving up with the hips will cause additional soreness.

3. Order http://www.startingstrength.com/ if you do not already have it, and learn how to correctly do a full Olympic squat. The book also contains the 3x5 program.

4. While waiting on your copy to arrive, read the Guide to Novice Barbell Training, aka the Official Rippetoe-Starting Strength FAQ which also contains info on the 3x5 program.

5. Don't give up

 

[atp1000]

Thanks again guys. Trust me, I not going to give up totally. I am looking to make some adjustments.

However, I am aware of my current level of fitness and something just does not feel right in my legs. While stretching after the workout did help, I woke up the next day with these aching in my legs. Again, it is not typical muscle soreness. And yes, maybe it is from poor squat form, something I need to address.

I would like to believe that these leg cramps and aching will go away with time, but I don't want any serious problems to arise because I tried to be a tough guy.

So I see 3 options right now:

1. Continue on with the 5x5 and re-learn how to squat with very low weight 3x a week.

2. Continue on with 5x5 and squat 2x a week

3. Dump the 5x5 and start the 3x5

Any thoughts?

 

[bigred133]

You sound just like a guy who was training with me and was new to squats. He was having terrible hip flexor pain from bad form. He was about to quit until we started him over with the BAR ONLY and worked on correcting every little thing about his form "by the book." No more hip flexor pain. His weak adductors are sore now, and he is squatting a lot less weight, but he is learning better form squatting three times a week with the 3x5 program.

 

[atp1000]

You sound just like a guy who was training with me and was new to squats. He was having terrible hip flexor pain from bad form. He was about to quit until we started him over with the BAR ONLY and worked on correcting every little thing about his form "by the book." No more hip flexor pain. His weak adductors are sore now, and he is squatting a lot less weight, but he is learning better form squatting three times a week with the 3x5 program.

Ok, I am not new to squats and have been doing them for 2 years now. However, did I do them often in the past? No, only once a week for maybe 3-4 sets. Do I possibly have poor form and squatting 3x a week makes this more of a problem...probably.

So, based on your post and the information above, should I start over with the bar only and stay with 3x5 or 5x5?

 

[bigred133]

He was new to squatting correctly. He had done half squats in a Smythe machine for years.

I know you can squat I just don't know if you are squatting correctly.

What helped my friend (and may help you) was:
Reading Starting Strength and the FAQ page I linked.
Starting over with the bar only on the 3x5 program.
Making sure he could squat all the way down below parallel with feet shoulder width or a little more, toes out, knees way out over toes, feet flat, ass back, hip drive, low bar, straight wrists, chest up, etc...
Staying with the bar only for several workouts until he could do it right.

And having somebody stand there and tell him what he was doing wrong.

How do you make the decision between the 3x5 and the 5x5? Here's how:
If you can progress every 38 hours by adding weight (even a pound/kilo) to your squat every workout then you will get better results with the 3x5.

Since you are starting over with the bar and an instruction book, you can progress every workout on the 3x5. Just reset your other lifts minus ten percent (according to Practical Programming, Rip's second book.)

The 5x5 is designed for trainees who can no longer progress every 48hrs. Since you are starting over with squats that does not apply to you.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Judging from your numbers, 100% do a 3x5 over a 5x5.

Order the book Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore and study it like the Pope does the Bible.

You'll be bigger 5 months from now by using the 3x5 then you would be using the 5x5.

+1.

We recently updated the sticky with a link to a new, far better online write-up of the 3x5 than the one cougar posted above, which was the one it replaced in the sticky.

 

[atp1000]

+1.

We recently updated the sticky with a link to a new, far better online write-up of the 3x5 than the one cougar posted above, which was the one it replaced in the sticky.

Is this +1 in favor of the 3x5 being better suited for me because of my 5 RMs?

 

[Cynical Simian]

Yes, but it's also for getting Starting Strength.

EDIT: Not because of your 5RMs, but rather because of your previous training experience. Like LT said above, numbers don't necessarily indicate training status (novice, intermediate, etc.), which is a measure of how rapidly you can make progress and how complex training has to be for you to make that progress.

 

[atp1000]

Yes, but it's also for getting Starting Strength.

EDIT: Not because of your 5RMs, but rather because of your previous training experience. Like LT said above, numbers don't necessarily indicate training status (novice, intermediate, etc.), which is a measure of how rapidly you can make progress and how complex training has to be for you to make that progress.

Got it. Thanks for all of your guys' help. It has been very appreciated!

 

[atp1000]

Ok, I ordered the book and it should be here soon. I also looked over the links provided above and I my last reservation about the 3x5 is only 1 working set of deadlifts. If I have any shining star in my lifting repertoire it would be deads.

Can anyone shed any light as to whether 1 working set of deads is an issue?

 

[Cynical Simian]

It's not. Just trust Rippetoe on this one. High-volume, high-intensity (%1RM) deads (heavy 5x5 with same weight) are a great way to burn yourself out very quickly and unnecessarily.

 

[Lone Trooper]

Stop thinking so much. Just STOP. Don't ask any questions, and do exactly as we tell you. I'm not fucking joking here. Just don't question any of this, trust us. You'll be FINE.

 

[atp1000]

Stop thinking so much. Just STOP. Don't ask any questions, and do exactly as we tell you. I'm not fucking joking here. Just don't question any of this, trust us. You'll be FINE.

Alright alright alright! LMAO.

 

[anotherbutters]

Stop thinking so much. Just STOP. Don't ask any questions, and do exactly as we tell you. I'm not fucking joking here. Just don't question any of this, trust us. You'll be FINE.

+1

LOL

 

[ricanx99]

Making sure he could squat all the way down below parallel with feet shoulder width or a little more, toes out, knees way out over toes, feet flat, ass back, hip drive, low bar, straight wrists, chest up, etc...
Staying with the bar only for several workouts until he could do it right.

And having somebody stand there and tell him what he was doing wrong.

Right on the money here with the form! Lower your weights and STICK to squats! Squat til you PUKE!!!

 

[Lone Trooper]

Right on the money here with the form! Lower your weights and STICK to squats! Squat til you PUKE!!!

YEAH ORB! PUKING IS MANLY DURING WORKOUTS! COMAS ARE MAINLY TOO! LET'S TRAIN UNTIL WE COMA! LOLZZOLOZ!


God I hate you.

 

[bigred133]

Can anyone shed any light as to whether 1 working set of deads is an issue?

Remember that that is one working set of deads with increased weight every other day. Workout A, workout B, Workout A, etc...

You are deadlifting one work set every other day in the 3x5. In the 5x5 you deadlift ramped sets once a week.

Be sure to warm up for that one set of deads properly. It's in the book. Look in the index in the back under warm-ups.

My deadlifts progressed every workout in the 3x5. You will be fine.

 

[Cynical Simian]

YEAH ORB! PUKING IS MANLY DURING WORKOUTS! COMAS ARE MAINLY TOO! LET'S TRAIN UNTIL WE COMA! LOLZZOLOZ!

I put syrup of ipecac in my pre- and post-WO shakes. Works every time.

 

[HiDnGoD]

Some good advice in this here thread.
BTW syrup of ipecac doesn't work for me. I just think of what I would look like if I didn't lift.