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AM cardio.. Reality

Andy13

Elite Mentor
Platinum
Has everyone been told to do cardio on an empty stomach when cutting?

The "theory" is that one utilizes mostly fat cal's by doing cardio in the AM since glycogen stores are at a daily low.

This belief is then extrapolated by some (most?) to "one will lose more fat if cardio is done in the AM as opposed to some other time in the day," Implying that 20minutes on the stair master, if done in the AM, will cause more over-all fat loss than if that same 20 min is done some other time.

I have two problems with this reasoning..

The most obvious, it violates the first law of thermodynamics.. Burning 500 cals on the stairmaster is burning 500 cals on the stairmaster, no matter when it is done.

Here is where most will say "yeah, but more of those cals are coming from fat instead of sugar when cardio is done in the AM.

However, if one really wants to get to the nitty gritty, let's say I do my cardio in the afternoon instead of the evening.. I'll even EXTEND the popular belief and say that 100% of my calories came from carbohydrate stores (obviously, this doesn't happen). Now, I eat my normal balanced carb meal. The carbs ingested will replace the glycogen lost during the cardio. The comparison in this hypothetical situation is the same person who has already done his AM cardio.. His glycogen stores (hypothetically) are rather full.. He is more likely to store some of the carbs as fat than am I since my glycogen stores are lower, albeit I am no further ahead of him since he has already expended a portion of cal's from his AM cardio..

In other words, I'm just restating the first law of thermo... The generalization is, if one eats 3000 cals and expends 4000cals, he WILL LOSE WEIGHT, no matter how the cals enter or leave the system. Physiologically, this isn't entirely accurate, as macronutrient profile (etc) will indeed play a role. However, for this discussion, let's assume we're talking about BBers with reasonable eating habits.

The second argument I have against the idea that "AM cardio is better" is a question on the validity of the "greater % of fat burned when glycogen stores are empty" statement. This goes hand in hand with the belief that "slower cardio=more fat loss."

(the following was adapted from BIOCHEMISTRY, Stryer)

Marathon runners consume about equal amounts of glycogen and fatty acids.. If their fuel came from fatty acids entirely, the 2hr run would take more like 6hrs. However, the glycogen stores in the body are not sufficient to provide energy for the race.. Low blood sugar triggers production of glucose (from amino acids) that is needed for such an event.

This is interesting since the aim of BBers is to lose fat without losing muscle.. This is why many won't do high intensity cardio.. However, when glycogen stores are low (as in the morning) it's reasonable to believe that the body will lose more amino's to gluconeogenesis than when the cardio is done another time.. How significant is it? Not very, in my opinion.. Just as the difference between fat loss from AM cardio compared to cardio any other time of the day is also not significant (also my opinion).



Andy
 
just run when you can screw this AM thing just liek test is test then running is running
 
These threads are getting old. I'm convinced that everyone is different and you need to find what works best for you. I can do 4 hours of cardio a day, if I do it in the afternoon, I'm lucky to lose any fat at all (once I'm sub-18% bodyfat). If I do 20 mins in the morning, I'll burn all kinds of fat. The proof of this for me? The results. The anti-proof of this for you, your results.

Does Deca work for everyone?
Does Test make everyone hold as much water as the next guy?
Does everyone think BMW is the best car on the road?

Come on, people. I've read SO many posts and so many people are talking about "common sense"... well, there it is. Figure out what works best for you, trial and error, and do it. There's your common sense.
-B
 
bebaumax said:
These threads are getting old. I'm convinced that everyone is different and you need to find what works best for you. I can do 4 hours of cardio a day, if I do it in the afternoon, I'm lucky to lose any fat at all (once I'm sub-18% bodyfat). If I do 20 mins in the morning, I'll burn all kinds of fat. The proof of this for me? The results. The anti-proof of this for you, your results.

Does Deca work for everyone?
Does Test make everyone hold as much water as the next guy?
Does everyone think BMW is the best car on the road?

Come on, people. I've read SO many posts and so many people are talking about "common sense"... well, there it is. Figure out what works best for you, trial and error, and do it. There's your common sense.
-B

Well there is a problem here with your assey methods...

I don't doubt you did cardio in the Am and lost weight.. But I DO doubt you scientifically investigated the two scinarios to come to the conclusion that one way works 'better' than another.

I'll go along with 'deca being different for every person.'

But the concepts of metabolism are shared from bacteria to mice to humans..

The whole idea of each individual having a SPECIFIC diet plan with exercise that works FOR THEM and their body type is something made up by the diet industry to get fat people to buy their NEW product..

In reality, it comes down to this..

Burn more than you consume, LOOSE WEIGHT.
Eat more than you burn, GAIN WEIGHT.

thermodynamics...

Andy
 
Andy, this is like telling me that all people are exactly the same. If 100 people were born on X day and fed Y food for the rest of their lives and did the exact same training and studied the exact same things all their lives, we'd have 100 people that are practically clones of each other. That's not the case, I'm sure you'd agree. Some people are naturally lean, always will be without some major calories and intensive weight-training programs. Then there's the huge dude at my gym that looks like he could go head-to-head with Shannon Sharp.. lifts about once a week and never does cardio. C'mon, man... I know you know this, what are you getting at?

Yes, if you follow a strict dietary plan, you'll get in better shape. Would you take a naturally thin dude and put him on 1400 calories/day, as long as he tried not to burn more than 1200, he'd get bigger? Would you take that fat dude and start him at 14,000 and tell him he'd better start burning cals?

You're right, the "concepts of metabolism" are the fairly universal. The SPECIFICS, however, are not.

No, I did no scientific study. Of course not. I did cardio for a year in the afternoon before someone even recommended I try it in the morning when I was complaining about not making gains (this was years ago). In 4 weeks I'd lost more fat than in that year. Nothing else changed. No, this is not massively scientific, but neither is any of the other common-sense information presented on this board with the sole purpose of helping people out. Nothing is written in stone here. I've found what works best for me, so I do it.
-B
 
I agree. i won't do morning cardio anymore on an empty stomach. Ther eis way too much risk of losing muscel mass, even with a protein shake taken rigth before. In my experience, if you are using gear, then cardio in the AM, cardio in the PM, or reducing your calories a bit more and doing no cardio amount to the same fat loss.
 
Andy13 said:


In reality, it comes down to this..

Burn more than you consume, LOOSE WEIGHT.
Eat more than you burn, GAIN WEIGHT.

thermodynamics...

Andy

I disagree....

Lets say I am on zero carbs, and useing ketones as fuel. Ketones are very ineficent fuel sources, so I need to burn more ketones in order to provide the same energy as fat. Haveing said that I can loose weight while consumeing the same enery I burn.

Macronutrients ratios DOES matter....
 
Some people get it. And some people don't.

The "everyone is different" argument only goes so far.

Fact: If you expend more calories than you ingest, you will lose weight. BUT (and this important so pay attention) that doesn't mean everyone will lose the exact same amount of weight or the exact same amount of fat. So yes, there are variables, based on genetics, but the basic laws are still universal. It's just the extent to which they will empart their effects that will show some leeway.

When people say they did better with AM cardio --or ANY cardio__ it's a distorted perception. It's highly doubtful they did EVERYTHING the same, except changed cardio to morning. In fact, it's impossible -- even if they don't think so.

Macronutrient ratio matters only under two conditions -- that the macronutrients are either unbalanced in a negitive nitrogen state which doesn't allow for proper muscle growth, or...if one or the other macronutriet (fats or carbs) is absent or so low that it'll impart a temporary drop in weight (more frm dehydration than using fat for fuel) but stress the metabolism and ultimately mess it up.

Using ketones for energy is really, really dumb. The body was not meant to fuction optimumly in that manner. I thinks it's starving and will eventually catbolize muscle for fuel. Humans need all 3 macronutrients. BB's just need a higher protein ratio.

The AM cardio, and the dubious benifits of cardio will continue, but the fact remains: Cardio is just a less effective form of exercise and AM cardio makes absolutely no difference whatsoever except for the fact that it's a bit more catabolic -- to EVERYONE, just not as much for some as others.
 
Cornellius said:


I disagree....

Lets say I am on zero carbs, and useing ketones as fuel. Ketones are very ineficent fuel sources, so I need to burn more ketones in order to provide the same energy as fat. Haveing said that I can loose weight while consumeing the same enery I burn.

Macronutrients ratios DOES matter....

Yes.. That's true.. Ketone manufacture will occasionally waste a couple of carbons to acetone (which cannot be used by body tissues).. So, in essence, a gram of fat converted to ketone bodies yields less energy than if that gram of fat were oxidized to CO2 in a non-ketotic state..

But now I turn this back around on you...

Your marginal increase in metabolism from ketone body production is nullified when t4-->t3 conversion in liver is compromised as a result of low glycogen stores.

Andy
 
cockdezl
Moderator

"For fat burning it apparently takes 25 minutes at a moderate pace just to start into the fat buring process and anything more than 45-50 minutes you'll start cutting into muscle stores. So basically you want to go from 25-45 minutes sessions at a moderate pace. You should work up a good sweat and your heart rate should be up enough but only enough so you don't feel like getting off."

Unfortunately, this "Personal Trainer/MuscleRag" myth doesn't die easily.
The idea of tapping into fat stores after 'x' number of minutes is physiologically correct, but it is of no real value. Once you realize that at rest you are utilizing nearly all of your energy from fat, then logic would tell you "why exercise, if I am already burning fat"?

The fuel source is not the key to bodyfat reduction, but the caloric expenditure and post-exercise metabolism increase. At rest we are burning all fat, but it is a small number of calories, whereas at 85+VO2Max, we are burning mostly carbohydrates, but the number of calories is far greater. Also, with higher intensity exercise, metabolism is increased significantly up to 24 hours, while at low intensity it diminishes very quickly.

Also, the idea that higher intensity exercise is catabolic is erroneous. Higher intensity is by definition resistance exercise. Take a look at cyclists and sprinters; their legs are massive.

High Intensity Interval Training is a great method for getting the most out of cardio.
*******************
Think i'll add a couple of cockdezl's replies to this subject from the past.
BMJ
 
Your arguments against AM cardio seem to be from an immediate "calories burned, fuel type used" standpoint. This does not take into account the depth of metabolic reactions involved.
 
Silent Method said:
Your arguments against AM cardio seem to be from an immediate "calories burned, fuel type used" standpoint. This does not take into account the depth of metabolic reactions involved.

Go on.......
 
wel I am a guy who has done tons of cardio
esp in the Am

but I have to say that my best results were when I lifted in the afternoon, and ran at night after dinner,
yep contradiction but true

when I did it the other way o round the resluts were not the same.

also I had poor results when i did cardio right after lifting that was the worst
 
Andy13 said:


Your marginal increase in metabolism from ketone body production is nullified when t4-->t3 conversion in liver is compromised as a result of low glycogen stores.

Andy

I don´t see why t4-->t3 conversion in liver would be compromised due to low liver glycogen, but it makes sence....

I understand that the t4-->T3 convertion is lowered when overal calories are low, not just liver glycogen.....but as I said, it would make sence.......can you elavorate (sp?) ?
 
Good post....here's my take on the subject.

It does not matter when in the day you do cardio. One time of day is no more effective than any other, the human body cannot distinguish the difference. The only variable is the amount and type of calories you take in. If you have elevated glucose levels when you do your cardio, your body will prefer to burn that rather than your bodyfat. This is why some people prefer to do cardio on an empty stomach, but its not really necessary. You will still be burning bodyfat provided your intensity level is not so high that there is an oxygen deficite.

More is explained here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=307158&page=1&pp=20&highlight=cardio
 
MR. BMJ said:
cockdezl
Moderator

"For fat burning it apparently takes 25 minutes at a moderate pace just to start into the fat buring process and anything more than 45-50 minutes you'll start cutting into muscle stores. So basically you want to go from 25-45 minutes sessions at a moderate pace. You should work up a good sweat and your heart rate should be up enough but only enough so you don't feel like getting off."

Unfortunately, this "Personal Trainer/MuscleRag" myth doesn't die easily.
The idea of tapping into fat stores after 'x' number of minutes is physiologically correct, but it is of no real value. Once you realize that at rest you are utilizing nearly all of your energy from fat, then logic would tell you "why exercise, if I am already burning fat"?

The fuel source is not the key to bodyfat reduction, but the caloric expenditure and post-exercise metabolism increase. At rest we are burning all fat, but it is a small number of calories, whereas at 85+VO2Max, we are burning mostly carbohydrates, but the number of calories is far greater. Also, with higher intensity exercise, metabolism is increased significantly up to 24 hours, while at low intensity it diminishes very quickly.

Also, the idea that higher intensity exercise is catabolic is erroneous. Higher intensity is by definition resistance exercise. Take a look at cyclists and sprinters; their legs are massive.

High Intensity Interval Training is a great method for getting the most out of cardio.
*******************
Think i'll add a couple of cockdezl's replies to this subject from the past.
BMJ

I dont completely agree with this. If your total caloric and fat intake are low enough, which they should be in a dieting state, then the fuel source you use during your cardio does make a difference.

Also to say that high intensity exercise is not catabolic would depend on a few factors. Most notably how much energy you expend compared to how much you have in your stores. If you're using mostly carbs for energy, what's going to happen when your stores run out?? Your body is going to take it from other places in your body, thus creating a catabolic state.

But yes, I do concurr that using high intensity exercise to boost your metabolism can be an effective method to go about fat burning.
 
What if you throw in ECA and hGH? Do these variables affect whether you burn fat as opposed to carbs or protein? Yes. So, it is possible to manipulate different variables and burn more fat directly than burning carbs.
 
I like this thread and want to throw in my opinion on the matter:

On the Juice: AM Cardio will rip me to shreds.

Off the Juice: AM Cardio will rip me to shreds...but I'll be saying bye-bye to my muscles.

When I am not on the juice, I will do cardio 3 times a week (no lifting on those days). These cardio days consist of two high intensity 12-15 minute sessions (HR ~170+). The first one is around 12 in the afternoon, and the second one is around 6pm. I think of cardio as boosting my metabolism which burns more fat during the day. The results have been awesome...as long as diet is in check.
 
I can honestly say that I get my leanest when I do AM cardio. Of course, it can be said that because I am doing AM cardio I wake up earlier and usually eat more meals which tends to increase my metabolic rate significantly.
 
bbkingpinn said:
What if you throw in ECA and hGH? Do these variables affect whether you burn fat as opposed to carbs or protein? Yes. So, it is possible to manipulate different variables and burn more fat directly than burning carbs.

Im not sure what you're getting at here. Im no expert on eca, but I believe those kind of things work by creating somewhat of a thermogenic effect and increasing your basal matabolic rate. So yes, you would burn more fat when at rest. But that doesnt change things when in an exercise state. The body uses oxygen to burn fat, so if your intensity level gets high enough to create an oxygen deficite you will be burning your bodies other fuel sources, regardless of how much eca you take.
 
OuttLaw said:
Im not sure what you're getting at here. Im no expert on eca, but I believe those kind of things work by creating somewhat of a thermogenic effect and increasing your basal matabolic rate. So yes, you would burn more fat when at rest. But that doesnt change things when in an exercise state. The body uses oxygen to burn fat, so if your intensity level gets high enough to create an oxygen deficite you will be burning your bodies other fuel sources, regardless of how much eca you take.

I am saying that it is possible that AM cardio on an empty stomach is more effective than otherwise.
 
The body will tap into fat cells for energy in the AM more efficiently than at any other time of day. However, a small amount of calories must be ingested to facilitate the mechanism that will allow the body to tap into those fat cells. A small glass of orange juice or something of that nature prior to the cardio will produce the best results for AM cardio performers.

Cyp
 
Andy13 said:
Has everyone been told to do cardio on an empty stomach when cutting?

The "theory" is that one utilizes mostly fat cal's by doing cardio in the AM since glycogen stores are at a daily low.

This belief is then extrapolated by some (most?) to "one will lose more fat if cardio is done in the AM as opposed to some other time in the day," Implying that 20minutes on the stair master, if done in the AM, will cause more over-all fat loss than if that same 20 min is done some other time.

I have two problems with this reasoning..

The most obvious, it violates the first law of thermodynamics.. Burning 500 cals on the stairmaster is burning 500 cals on the stairmaster, no matter when it is done.

Here is where most will say "yeah, but more of those cals are coming from fat instead of sugar when cardio is done in the AM.

However, if one really wants to get to the nitty gritty, let's say I do my cardio in the afternoon instead of the evening.. I'll even EXTEND the popular belief and say that 100% of my calories came from carbohydrate stores (obviously, this doesn't happen). Now, I eat my normal balanced carb meal. The carbs ingested will replace the glycogen lost during the cardio. The comparison in this hypothetical situation is the same person who has already done his AM cardio.. His glycogen stores (hypothetically) are rather full.. He is more likely to store some of the carbs as fat than am I since my glycogen stores are lower, albeit I am no further ahead of him since he has already expended a portion of cal's from his AM cardio..

In other words, I'm just restating the first law of thermo... The generalization is, if one eats 3000 cals and expends 4000cals, he WILL LOSE WEIGHT, no matter how the cals enter or leave the system. Physiologically, this isn't entirely accurate, as macronutrient profile (etc) will indeed play a role. However, for this discussion, let's assume we're talking about BBers with reasonable eating habits.

The second argument I have against the idea that "AM cardio is better" is a question on the validity of the "greater % of fat burned when glycogen stores are empty" statement. This goes hand in hand with the belief that "slower cardio=more fat loss."

(the following was adapted from BIOCHEMISTRY, Stryer)

Marathon runners consume about equal amounts of glycogen and fatty acids.. If their fuel came from fatty acids entirely, the 2hr run would take more like 6hrs. However, the glycogen stores in the body are not sufficient to provide energy for the race.. Low blood sugar triggers production of glucose (from amino acids) that is needed for such an event.

This is interesting since the aim of BBers is to lose fat without losing muscle.. This is why many won't do high intensity cardio.. However, when glycogen stores are low (as in the morning) it's reasonable to believe that the body will lose more amino's to gluconeogenesis than when the cardio is done another time.. How significant is it? Not very, in my opinion.. Just as the difference between fat loss from AM cardio compared to cardio any other time of the day is also not significant (also my opinion).



Andy

Good stuff
 
Cypptanon said:
The body will tap into fat cells for energy in the AM more efficiently than at any other time of day. However, a small amount of calories must be ingested to facilitate the mechanism that will allow the body to tap into those fat cells. A small glass of orange juice or something of that nature prior to the cardio will produce the best results for AM cardio performers.

Cyp
What makes you say this? What are you basing this theory on? Is it because you're going on the assumption that glycogen stores are really low 1st thing in the AM, thus forcing the body to derive more energy from fat than it normally would at other times of the day?? I might agree with this idea, but it doesnt make morning cardio any more efficient than doing it at other times of the day. And how would this be any different from lowering carb levels by being on an extreme CKD?

Say normally you burn 40% fat when doing cardio. Then you take your glycogen stores out of the picture and you force your body to burn 45-50% fat. I dont call that being more efficient, I call that running out of a fuel source and substituting it with another. BTW, your body wont only be just substituting more fat to make up for the loss, you will also be using more protein...and we all know where that has to come from. :)

bbkingpinn said:
I am saying that it is possible that AM cardio on an empty stomach is more effective than otherwise.

Well, we can go back and forth on this one all day. Im still waiting for someone to back up that claim with some REAL scientific evidence. Just because some people get better results in the AM doesnt make it more effective, there are way too many variables involved.
 
I have always done well with AM cardio--the only problem is that I'm fucking ravenous the rest of the day--if it's not tacked down it's in my mouth!!
I cannot lift in the AM-I do feel very weak and flat if I do--therefore I only lift in the PM
 
Here is some info on fat metabolism during exercise, long read but good:

http://www.gssiweb.com/reflib/refs/32/d000000020000006d.cfm?pid=38&CFID=299487&CFTOKEN=48197843

Main points:

SPORTS SCIENCE EXCHANGE


FAT METABOLISM DURING EXERCISE


SSE#59, Volume 8 (1995), Number 6


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Edward F. Coyle, Ph.D.
Professor, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education
The University of Texas at Austin
Austin,Texas
Member, GSSI Sports Medicine Review Board


KEY POINTS

1. People store large amounts of body fat in the form of triglycerides within fat (adipose) tissue as well as within muscle fibers (intramuscular triglycerides).When compared to carbohydrate stored as muscle glycogen, these fat stores are mobilized and oxidized at relatively slow rates during exercise.

2. As exercise progresses from low to moderate intensity, e.g., 25-65% VO2max, the rate of fatty acid mobilization from adipose tissue into blood plasma declines, whereas the rate of total fat oxidation increases due to a relatively large use of intramuscular triglycerides. Intramuscular triglycerides also account for the characteristic increase in fat oxidation as a result of habitual endurance-training programs.

3. Dietary carbohydrate intake has a large influence on fat mobilization and oxidation during exercise; when dietary carbohydrate produces sufficient carbohydrate reserves in the body, carbohydrate becomes the preferred fuel during exercise. This is especially important during intense exercise because only carbohydrate(not fat) can be mobilized and oxidized rapidly enough to meet the energy requirements for intense muscular contractions.


INTRODUCTION

The two main sources of energy during muscular exercise are fat (triglyceride) and carbohydrate (glycogen and glucose) stored within the body, and there has been much research and practical experience over the past 30 y demonstrating the importance of muscle and liver glycogen for reducing fatigue and improving athletic performance. For example, it is well known that diets containing predominantly carbohydrate are necessary to maintain glycogen stores at high levels during bouts of intense exercise and that such diets are apparently optimal for promoting training-induced improvements in performance (Simonsen et al., 1991). The primary reason that glycogen reserves are essential is that athletes can only slowly convert their body fat stores into energy during exercise. Therefore, when muscle glycogen and blood glucose concentrations are low, the intensity of exercise must be reduced to a level that can be supported by the body's limited ability to convert body fat into energy. With endurance training, athletes can markedly increase the rate at which body fat can be oxidized, thus allowing them to exercise longer before becoming exhausted due to glycogen depletion. Of course, exercise training also increases an individual's ability to exercise more intensely, so trained athletes must continue to derive most of their energy from carbohydrate during intense training and competition because their increased ability to oxidize fat cannot meet their increased energy demands.

MOBILIZATION AND OXIDATION OF FAT DURING EXERCISE

Mobilization of Free Fatty Acids (FFA) From Adipose Tissue

The large stores of triglyceride within adipose tissue are mobilized at relatively slow rates during exercise. In this process, exercise stimulates an enzyme, hormone sensitive lipase, to dissolve the lipid or triglyceride molecule into three molecules of unbound or free fatty acids (FFA) and one glycerol molecule (Figure 1) ; this process of breaking down triglycerides is known as lipolysis. The glycerol released from this reaction is water soluble and diffuses freely into the blood. Its rate of appearance in the blood provides a direct measure of the amount of triglyceride hydrolyzed in the body. The primary factor thought to be responsible for the stimulation of adipose tissue lipolysis during exercise is the increasing plasma concentration of epinephrine, which activates betareceptors in adipocytes (Arner et al. , 1990); additional hormonal factors probably also play a role.


The fate of the three FFA molecules released from adipose tissue during lipolysis is complex (Figure 1). These fatty acids are not water soluble and thus require a protein carrier to allow them to be transported through cells and within the blood stream. At rest, about 70% of the FFA released during lipolysis are reattached to glycerol molecules to form new triglycerides within the adipocytes. However, during low-intensity exercise, this process is attenuated at the same time as the overall rate of lipolysis increases; as a result, the rate of appearance of FFA in the plasma increases by up to five fold (Klein et al., 1994; Romijn et al., 1993; Wolfe et al., 1990). Once they enter the plasma, the FFA molecules are loosely bound to albumin, a plasma protein, and transported in the circulation. Some of the fatty acids are eventually released from albumin and bound to intramuscular proteins, which in turn transport the FFA to the mitochondria for oxidation (Turcotte et al., 1991).


Figure 2. Contribution of the four major fuel substrates to energy expenditure after 30 min. of exercise at 25%, 65% and 85% of maximal oxygen uptake in fasted subjects. Reproduced with permission from Romijn et al. (1993).



Recent studies of endurance-trained men who had fasted overnight found that the rate of appearance of FFA in plasma declines as the intensity of exercise progressively increases from low (25% VO2max, comparable to a walking pace) to moderate (65% VO2max, comparable to the greatest running pace that can be sustained for 2-4 h) to high (85% VO2max, the greatest pace that can be sustained for 30-60 min) (Figure 2). The contributions of carbohydrate, i.e. muscle glycogen and blood glucose, and of fat, i.e., plasma FFA from adipose tissue plus intramuscular triglyceride, to total energy expenditure during exercise at these various intensities are shown in Figure 2. It should be noted that although the contribution of plasma FFA to the fuel supply declines as exercise intensity increases from 25% to 65% VO2max, total fat oxidation increases. Furthermore, although the use of plasma FFA for energy is reduced as intensity increases from 25% to 65% VO2max, we can't discount the possibility that at an intermediate intensity, e.g., 45% VO2max, plasma FFA might contribute more energy than at 25% VO2max.

Whole-Body Fat Oxidation During Exercise of Increasing Intensity

There is much interest in the effect of exercise intensity on fat oxidation and the sources of that fat. It is often assumed that the intensity of exercise must be kept low to burn fat optimally. However, from Figures 2 and 3 it can be seen that the rate of total fat oxidation was higher at 65% than at 25% VO2max -110 cal · kg-1 · min-1 vs. 70 cal · kg-1 · min-1. At 25% VO2max, almost all of the energy expenditure during exercise was derived from fat, but fat oxidation at 65% VO2max accounted for only 50% of the energy expenditure. However, because the total rate of energy expenditure was so much greater (2.6-fold) at 65% VO2max, the absolute rate of fat oxidation was greater, i.e., it was 50% of a much larger value (Figure 3). Therefore, expressing energy derived from fat simply as a percentage of energy expenditure without consideration of the rate of total energy expenditure is misleading. Likewise, the reduction in the rate of appearance of plasma FFA with increasing intensity of exercise does not prove that exercising at a low intensity is the best way to reduce fat stored in adipose tissue.


Figure 3. Expanded views of teh sources of fat for oxidation during exercise at 25% (walking pace), 65% (moderate running) and 85% (intense running) of maximal oxygen uptake in fasted subjects.



Both the rate of energy expenditure and the duration of exercise are critical in determining fat loss. Another consideration is the effect that exercise has on energy expenditure during the recovery periods between exercise sessions. Reductions in body fat stores as a result of long-term exercise training depend primarily on the total daily energy expenditure and not simply the actual fuel oxidized during exercise (Ballor et al., 1990).


FAT SUPPLEMENTATION DURING EXERCISE

Ingestion of Long-Chain Triglycerides

It is not possible to ingest FFA because they are too acidic and because they need a protein carrier for intestinal absorption. Thus, the only practical way of significantly raising fat in the blood is by ingesting triglycerides. Normal long-chain dietary triglycerides enter the blood 3-4 h after ingestion and are bound to chylomicrons, which are lipoprotein carriers in the plasma. The rate of breakdown of triglycerides bound to plasma chylomicrons and the rate of uptake of those triglycerides by muscles during exercise are relatively low, and these chylomicron-associated triglycerides are used primarily to replenish intramuscular triglycerides during recovery from exercise (Mackie et al., 1980; Oscai et al., 1990). Therefore, although not proven, it is unlikely that ingestion of long-chain triglycerides has much potential to provide significant fuel for muscle during exercise (Terjung et al., 1983) .


Ingestion of Medium-Chain Triglycerides

Unlike long-chain triglycerides, ingested medium-chain triglycerides (MCT) are directly absorbed into the blood and liver and are rapidly broken down to fatty acids and glycerol. They therefore provide a theoretical means of rapidly elevating plasma FFA. Another theoretical advantage of MCT is that they appear to be readily transported through cells and into the mitochondria for oxidation. Recent studies have shown that a large percentage of ingested MCT is oxidized and that the oxidation increases more rapidly when the MCT is consumed along with carbohydrate (Jeukendrup et al., 1995). However, most individuals cannot consume more than 30 g of ingested MCT without experiencing severe gastrointestinal discomfort and diarrhea. Accordingly, MCT ingestion can only contribute 3-6% of the total energy expended during exercise (Jeukendrup et al., 1995). Furthermore, when MCT is consumed with a carbohydrate feeding, the carbohydrate-stimulated insulin secretion partially inhibits the mobilization of the body's own fat stores, resulting in large reductions in fat oxidation compared to exercise when fasted.



DIETARY CARBOHYDRATE INFLUENCES FAT OXIDATION DURING EXERCISE

Eating Carbohydrate During the Hours Before Exercise

Fat oxidation during exercise is very sensitive to the interval between eating carbohydrate and the onset of exercise and to the duration of the exercise. This is due in part to the elevation in plasma insulin in response to the carbohydrate meal and the resultant inhibition of lipolysis in adipose tissues, thus reducing the mobilization of FFA into the plasma. This effect is evident for at least 4 h after eating 140 g of carbohydrate that has a high glycemic index (Montain et al., 1991). Under these conditions, the carbohydrate meal reduces both total fat oxidation and plasma FFA concentration during the first 50 min of moderate-intensity exercise. However, this suppression of fat oxidation is reversed as the duration of exercise is increased; after 100 min of exercise, the rate of fat oxidation is similar, whether or not carbohydrate was eaten before exercise. It appears that the body relies heavily on carbohydrate and less on fat when people have eaten carbohydrate during the previous few hours, and therefore carbohydrate is preferred when it is available. It is likely that insulin plays a role in regulating the mixture of carbohydrate and fat oxidized during exercise.

Plasma FFA mobilization is remarkably sensitive to even small increases in plasma insulin (Jensen et al., 1989), and it seems that lipolysis is influenced for a long time after eating carbohydrate (Montain et al., 1991). Diets that are lower in carbohydrate or that contain carbohydrates that cause less insulin secretion, probably still elicit enough of an insulin response to reduce plasma FFA mobilization. Therefore, any commercially available product or diet that claims to increase FFA mobilization and oxidation would have to almost totally eliminate the insulin response to the carbohydrate in their product, which seems unlikely. At the very least, the developers of these products must demonstrate that FFA mobilization is increased by their diets and is somehow beneficial. As discussed above, increased FFA mobilization would certainly not seem to be of any value for untrained people because their mobilization of FFA normally exceeds the ability of the muscles to oxidize FFA.



Cyp
 
Therfore, in the bottom paragraph it is evident that carbohydrate ingestion pre-cardio will negatively affect fat utilization for energy....

This effect is evident for at least 4 h after eating 140 g of carbohydrate that has a high glycemic index (Montain et al., 1991). Under these conditions, the carbohydrate meal reduces both total fat oxidation and plasma FFA concentration during the first 50 min of moderate-intensity exercise. However, this suppression of fat oxidation is reversed as the duration of exercise is increased; after 100 min of exercise, the rate of fat oxidation is similar, whether or not carbohydrate was eaten before exercise. It appears that the body relies heavily on carbohydrate and less on fat when people have eaten carbohydrate during the previous few hours, and therefore carbohydrate is preferred when it is available.
 
OuttLaw said:
What makes you say this? What are you basing this theory on? Is it because you're going on the assumption that glycogen stores are really low 1st thing in the AM, thus forcing the body to derive more energy from fat than it normally would at other times of the day?? I might agree with this idea, but it doesnt make morning cardio any more efficient than doing it at other times of the day. And how would this be any different from lowering carb levels by being on an extreme CKD?

Say normally you burn 40% fat when doing cardio. Then you take your glycogen stores out of the picture and you force your body to burn 45-50% fat. I dont call that being more efficient, I call that running out of a fuel source and substituting it with another. BTW, your body wont only be just substituting more fat to make up for the loss, you will also be using more protein...and we all know where that has to come from. :)



Well, we can go back and forth on this one all day. Im still waiting for someone to back up that claim with some REAL scientific evidence. Just because some people get better results in the AM doesnt make it more effective, there are way too many variables involved.

Thanks Cypptanon.
 
Bro...that's nothing new...carbohydrate ingestions causes insulin levels to rise. Insulin is an anabolic hormone, meaning it stores fat and protein, and stimulates glycolysis...all these things decrease blood glucose levels, which is insulins main action.

Cardio for cutting is about calories, not substrate.
 
In order for the body to move, it requires energy. It would rather take energy from foods that you have eaten, than go through all the effort to utilize fat or glycogen stores.

Yes calorie reduction is how you cut. Cardio no matter what time of day will burn calories. But, cardio in the morning will derive energy (calories) from fat stores rather than from food that you have eaten...therefore more effective cutting.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Macronutrient ratio matters only under two conditions -- that the macronutrients are either unbalanced in a negitive nitrogen state which doesn't allow for proper muscle growth, or...if one or the other macronutriet (fats or carbs) is absent or so low that it'll impart a temporary drop in weight (more frm dehydration than using fat for fuel) but stress the metabolism and ultimately mess it up.

Using ketones for energy is really, really dumb. The body was not meant to fuction optimumly in that manner. I thinks it's starving and will eventually catbolize muscle for fuel. Humans need all 3 macronutrients. BB's just need a higher protein ratio.

The AM cardio, and the dubious benifits of cardio will continue, but the fact remains: Cardio is just a less effective form of exercise and AM cardio makes absolutely no difference whatsoever except for the fact that it's a bit more catabolic -- to EVERYONE, just not as much for some as others.

I thought you were quarantined to your own little corner of the world. I see they've let you let run wild again on anabolic forum with your blatantly incorrect assumptions that you pass off as "fact".

First of all, carbohydrate and protein eaten within 30 minutes of a workout is an effective time to restore amino acids and carbohydrate in the muscles, preparing them for the next workout. Adding a snack during this window is one way to add the 500-1,000 calories needed daily for a muscle building program. Foods like turkey sandwiches, crackers and cheese or an energy bar containing 7 to 14 grams of protein are good choices.

In order to achieve large gains in muscle mass along with significant body fat decreases, many hormonal events need to occur in the body. The amount of success that that can be achieved in these endeavors is determined by how much testosterone, growth hormone and insulin are produced by the body and whether or not they are produced at the right times.

These events are affected to a large extent by the quality, timing, amount and ratio of the macronutrients consumed on a daily basis.

Secondly, Ketones are substances produced by the body when it breaks down FATS for energy (metabolism). Normally, the body obtains energy from sugars (carbohydrates), but if a person's diet does not include enough sugars to supply the body with energy, or if the body cannot use sugars properly, it will break down stored fat and produce ketones (a process called ketogenesis).

Thirdly, cardio makes you FEEL BETTER. Facts About Cardio:

It's one way to burn calories and help you lose weight
It makes your heart strong so that it doesn't have to work as hard to pump blood
It increases your lung capacity
It helps reduce risk of heart attack, high cholesterol, high blood pressure and diabetes
It makes you feel good
It helps you sleep better
It helps reduce stress
I could go on all day, but you hopefully you'll get the point
 
Cypptanon said:
In order for the body to move, it requires energy. It would rather take energy from foods that you have eaten, than go through all the effort to utilize fat or glycogen stores.

Yes calorie reduction is how you cut. Cardio no matter what time of day will burn calories. But, cardio in the morning will derive energy (calories) from fat stores rather than from food that you have eaten...therefore more effective cutting.


It's not even CLOSE to as simple as that. Here's how it is:

When you exercise (no matter when) your blood glucose will drop...so cortisol is secreted from the adrenal gland. This causes fat and protein to be broken down in order to restore blood glucose to the normal levels (blood glucose regulation is the primary goal of the body at this point). So then as long as you're exercising, fat and protein are being broken down to keep the blood glucose stable.

Then when you're done, you eat food...and our old friend insulin is secreted and it stimulates fat and protein synthesis, again lowering your blood glucose back to normal. So you're back where you started. But the more calories you burned while doing the cardio, the more you can take in and still be in a deficit...which means you won't have enough energy to store as much protein and fat as you had prior to exercise...thus weight loss.

The way to lose weight is to be in calorie deficit...and when you're in calorie deficit, you will lose both fat and protein.

What cardio DOES do is increases fat stores in the muscle (closer to the mitochondria), which obviously makes it easier to use as energy, making the body more efficient at burning fat...no matter when you do cardio, this is one of the benefits.


It's even more complicated than that, obviously. Your body has amazing homeostatic controls, and something as important as blood glucose will have many overlapping control systems.
 
Seeing as one tends to be more catabolic in the morning, I wouldn't want to risk using amino's for fuel by doing cardio on an empty stomach. Hell, I hate cardio period. But if I were to do it, it would be later in the day rather than first thing in the morning.
 
Bulldog, my statements are based solely on the fact that I have found research that concludes that the body relies heavily on carbohydrates eaten in the few hours prior to exercise rather than fat stores, so it would lead one to believe that there would be greater fat loss. However, I cannot find any research that states AM Cardio will actually lead to a specific percentage of increased fat loss versus otherwise. I also do not have any personal experience to justify either argument.

Cyp
 
Bulldog_10 said:
It's not even CLOSE to as simple as that. Here's how it is:

When you exercise (no matter when) your blood glucose will drop...so cortisol is secreted from the adrenal gland. This causes fat and protein to be broken down in order to restore blood glucose to the normal levels (blood glucose regulation is the primary goal of the body at this point). So then as long as you're exercising, fat and protein are being broken down to keep the blood glucose stable.

Then when you're done, you eat food...and our old friend insulin is secreted and it stimulates fat and protein synthesis, again lowering your blood glucose back to normal. So you're back where you started. But the more calories you burned while doing the cardio, the more you can take in and still be in a deficit...which means you won't have enough energy to store as much protein and fat as you had prior to exercise...thus weight loss.

The way to lose weight is to be in calorie deficit...and when you're in calorie deficit, you will lose both fat and protein.

What cardio DOES do is increases fat stores in the muscle (closer to the mitochondria), which obviously makes it easier to use as energy, making the body more efficient at burning fat...no matter when you do cardio, this is one of the benefits.


It's even more complicated than that, obviously. Your body has amazing homeostatic controls, and something as important as blood glucose will have many overlapping control systems.

Finally, at least somebody else is on the right track here.
 
Cypptanon said:
Bulldog, my statements are based solely on the fact that I have found research that concludes that the body relies heavily on carbohydrates eaten in the few hours prior to exercise rather than fat stores, so it would lead one to believe that there would be greater fat loss. However, I cannot find any research that states AM Cardio will actually lead to a specific percentage of increased fat loss versus otherwise. I also do not have any personal experience to justify either argument.

Cyp

And this is what I've been saying all along. You wont find anything that states AM cardio is more effective than any other time of day. That article you posted says nothing more than what I already stated about having high glucose levels when doing cardio. This is why some people may prefer to do there cardio on an empty stomach or even 1st thing in the morning when all of your stores are depleted. But that doesnt make AM cardio any more effective than doing cardio at any other time of the day.
 
Cypptanon said:
In order for the body to move, it requires energy. It would rather take energy from foods that you have eaten, than go through all the effort to utilize fat or glycogen stores.

Yes calorie reduction is how you cut. Cardio no matter what time of day will burn calories. But, cardio in the morning will derive energy (calories) from fat stores rather than from food that you have eaten...therefore more effective cutting.

Tuh duh!
 
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