Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA)

[Fonz]

I'm still a bit confused.


"ALA will increase glucose up-take into the muscles by
roughly 40%."


"By adding some cardio at 60-70% intensity for 45min
(around 300Kcal caloric expenditure), he now
loses 1lb of fat every 12 days, instead of gaining
1lb of fat."


I have been told that I have to use/burn off the gluecose befor I begin to burn fat. If this is true it looks like I have to do extra cardio because I took ALA. This obviously isn't how it works so please explain.

I'll clear it up.

Before taking ALA you were eating 75g carbs too many that were
being converted into fat.(300*12)=3600Kcal which
is 1.03lbs of fat.

Now, with the addition of ALA your muscle are now able
to hold 75g more than the amount of carbs you're
currently eating.
Therefore no carbs are converted into fat:

Therefore, you now have 3 options.

1. You can eat 75g more carbs(due to the ALA) to
increase your glycogen stores with
no increase in fat.

2. You can remain with the same diet and not lose/gain any fat.
(as oppposed to gaining 1lb of fat every 12 days)

3. Since you have created a 75g carb deficit in your bodies
glycogen stores, you have the option of doing cardio to
take advantage of that deficit, and lose some fat.
(Losing 1lb fat every 12 days as oppposed to gaining 1lb fat)

Hope that helped.


Godspeed

 

[Fonz]

Zeke_B:

ALA has no side-effects. The only thing that I coud
find was that some people experience a small
rash due to it.(Almost all chemical do this). Some
people just can't tolerate anything.
No down-regulation of the glut-4's occurrs and ALA
can be used indefinately. It is also the BEST
anti-oxidant on the planet, due to the fact that its both
fat and water soluble(a phospholipid).

Lawnsaver:

Metformin HCL(glucophage) increases glucose transport
by 10-40% depending on the individual. It also
has some ability to stop the production of
glucose from carbs.(increases thermogenesis)
It is however a DRUG(requires a prescription) while
you can go buy the ALA at a local GNC.
I'd take ALA over Metformin any-time as the
Metformin gives me gas, abdominal discomfort,
heart-burn, and makes you lose your apetite since
it decreases the rate of gastric emptying.
(This alone might make Metformin suitable
for dieting)
Metformin used to be far cheaper than ALA(and hence
BB'ers used it more), but now ALA's price has gone
down considerably and more people are starting
to use it.
Now, if only they could re-start production of
PHENFORMIN <sob>. 8 times more powerful than
metformin.

Godspeed

 

[Zeke_B]

Thanx fonz...sounds too good to be true. A diet aid as well as an anabolic supplement. Hope the FDA doesn't find out it works!!! I've seen enough to give it a try.

 

[cockdezl]

"Yes VG. ALA would overcome GH-induced insulin
resistance.
Another drug whuch overcomes GH-induced
insulin resistance is TROGLITAZONE.
Another diabetic drug."

Troglitazone (Rezulin) was pulled from the market due to hepatotoxicity. Now you get Rosiglitazone (Avandia).

Part of GH's effects is by increasing lipolysis and elevating free fatty acid levels. This is a double edged sword, since the elevated fatty acids reduce insulin sensitivity, but prevent muscle catabolism for fuel. This seems to be the method of anti-catabolism that is seen in thermogenics...there is a shifting of fuel utilization to lipids, and a decrease in insulin function. Trying to improve glucose utilization may counter some of the anti-catabolic effects of GH.

Also, FONZ, your mathematical formulas are giving the body 100% efficiency, and we know that it is not. Not all of the glucose will be used for glycogen, some will be oxidized for fuel, and some will be stored in adipocytes.

 

[Trevdog]

Fonz's original ALA thread

Well, when Fonz started the thread in mid March, I think it was the first time I had heard of ALA. I was intrigued, so I cut the thread out and emailed it to myself. For what it's worth, here it is:


I usually don't tell people to go buy this or that, but yesterdays thread on lipoic acid showed me that Lipoic acid is a very misunderstood supplement. That's right it IS A SUPPLEMENT which has drug-like effects. The only reason why our good friends at the FDA couldn't make it into a drug is because lipoic acid is naturally occurring.(Thank you Senator Hatch). Anyways, to make a long story short Lipoic acid also called thioctic acid, is of the B-class of vitamins and has some pretty fabulous metabolic properties. I will list them: 1. Increases glucose up-take by the muscle-cells by 50%. This permits you to hold 50% more glycogen. I.e. you can eat 50% more carbs. 2. This means that it increases the sensitivity of the muscle cells at the expense of the fat cells. It is one hell of a nutrient partitioning agent. You WILL gain less fat/more muscle on this supplement. This is a scientific fact. 3. Lipoic Acid is both fat and water soluble (a phospholipid), and can enter the cell. 4. It is the premier anti-oxidant on the PLANET. It is stronger than vitamin C and vitamin E, and as a bonus amplifies both VitC's and VitE's effects. 5. PROTECTS NERVES FROM NERVE DAMAGE. ALSO REGENERATES THEM. This is for MeanOne regarding his thread that said nerves coul not grow/be regrown. If you have any back problems or pinched nerves etc..... ALA will do the trick. 6. ALSO OF EXTREMELY IMPORTANT VALUE. IT HELPS REGENERATE LIVER TISSUE WHEN NOTHING ELSE WILL. This includes Milk Thistle, Cranberry extract, and all the other popular liver protectants........This alone should make it worthwile for the bodybuilder. Bet all you Fina users didn't know that. I've done VERY long 17-aa cycles with multiple 17-aa steroids with no side-effects. Needless to say lipoic acid was my secret weapon. These are some of the more pronounced benefits of Lipoic acid, but it is by no means complete. It has also showed to protect from DNA damage, slow the on-set of AIDS, and is regarded to be one of the premier anti-aging drugs on the planet. People have generally seen ALA in supplements like Cell-Tech and other creatine transport products, MRP's etc... and have decided to skip it because it was just too pricey....but no more.... Due to increased demand, it is very cheap now., and very accessible to all. I HIGHLY recommend it. Common dosage is 200mg 3 times a day. Hope this was informative enough....... Godspeed

-----------------------------------------------------------------------jbone Amateur Bodybuilder Posts: 71 From: Registered: Nov 2000 posted March 14, 2001 12:01 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Fonz -- good info that is really appreciated. Gonna have to give it a try. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex Moderator Posts: 5856 From:Timbuktu Registered: Jan 2000 posted March 14, 2001 12:02 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Very nice indeed fonz...It's going into part of my next oral stack.Thanks bro... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 12:37 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I HAVE to Bump this up. Almost at the bottom already. Strange. Godspeed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- whodaman Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 912 From: Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 12:43 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks bro...that's news to me...I'll also be adding it to my next cycle... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scsufootball84 Cool Novice Posts: 12 From:I bet Registered: Feb 2001 posted March 14, 2001 12:45 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Very good info Fonz, I have to give it a shot. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frackal Freak Posts: 2943 From:THE VOID Registered: Sep 2000 posted March 14, 2001 01:01 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Great info. I'm going to buy some of this shit tommorrow. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 02:52 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bumping this thing back up for al you oral users. Godspeed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Spunky Freak Posts: 2026 From:USA Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 02:54 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll be sure and get some post-cycle to take w/ glutamine. this may be something else to help retain gains.... who knows. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 03:00 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Spunky: I'll be sure and get some post-cycle to take w/ glutamine. this may be something else to help retain gains.... who knows. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Definately, as it is the best nutrient-partitioning substance after steroids that I know of. It also has no impact on the HPTA axis. Very good for recovery Godspeed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dafoe69 Amateur Bodybuilder Posts: 204 From:Right next door Registered: May 2000 posted March 14, 2001 03:01 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I actually sell lipoic acid or alphlipoic acid as its in my store and all I knew was that it increased insulin sensitivity. Didn't know it did all that stuff. ------------------ Winning isn't everything, It's the only thing. -Vince Lombardi -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pharm Animal Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1090 From:Honolulu, HI Registered: Aug 2000 posted March 14, 2001 03:04 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUMP! thanks for the info fonz....what do you know about it for dieting? it sounds great for either bulking or cutting PA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amp Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 516 From:Anytown, USA Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 03:13 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just bought 2 bottles yesterday for when I start my bulking cycle on Monday. I will be loading up on creatine and figured it would go nicely in that stack for the glucose uptake. I read about it a long time ago being included in Cell Tech so I'll just add it to my juice and creatine. Juice meaning something fruity and delicious to drink not steroids. None of us do steroids. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gtbig 2 Cool Novice Posts: 39 From: Registered: Jan 2001 posted March 14, 2001 03:16 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Great info Fonz, Bump -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ol_Dad Novice Posts: 8 From:Mt.Vernon,IL,USA Registered: Mar 2001 posted March 14, 2001 03:29 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks fonz, nice info now I have another supplement to add to my diet with xenedrine, any others that you would advise , bump also so all can see ------------------ When Times are tuff, just fall back on the Ol' saying, And this too will pass... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The_Iron_Game Freak Posts: 2498 From: Registered: Oct 2000 posted March 14, 2001 03:29 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good post Could you please clarify what you mean by the following: 1. Increases glucose up-take by the muscle-cells by 50%. This permits you to hold 50% more glycogen. I.e. you can eat 50% more carbs. I spotted something in there and was wondering if it was a typo. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bigrand Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 382 From: Registered: Sep 2000 posted March 14, 2001 03:37 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I only bump the best! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- zarathustra Amateur Bodybuilder Posts: 114 Fromh Registered: Feb 2000 posted March 14, 2001 03:49 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm in a bumping mood! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amp Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 516 From:Anytown, USA Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 03:52 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I also would like more info on the 50% increased glycogen storage. If that's the case it should cause your muscles to be much more full and pumped all the time. Have you noticed a physical difference in your physique when using the ALA? Can you provide where any documented info or research is about this. I am not questioning the validity of this statement, I just want to learn more about it and how it accomplishes this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phreaky Amateur Bodybuilder Posts: 230 From: Registered: Mar 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:02 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ALA is very potent if used at the proper times and dosages. 200mg with breakfast and 400-600mg post workout with a high carb-high protien shake. I have been using it for years with excellent results. Glucose uptake was incraesed dramatically that = incraesed pumps and less BF%. I am for the first time going to experiment with the real thing - insulin. I want to know how much stronger it is. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amp Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 516 From:Anytown, USA Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:04 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 600mg post workout with a high carb, high protein shake. That sounds like a good idea. When I creatine load next week, how much ALA should I take with each drink 200-300mg? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- pittbull2 Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 360 From:Louisiana Registered: Sep 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:10 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz tell us where to read more on this, sounds good and my liver profile is off right now maybe this will help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:11 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by The_Iron_Game: Good post Could you please clarify what you mean by the following: 1. Increases glucose up-take by the muscle-cells by 50%. This permits you to hold 50% more glycogen. I.e. you can eat 50% more carbs. I spotted something in there and was wondering if it was a typo. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry for the wait guys, but I had to answer my mobile. Here goes, In our muscle cells, there are 2 kinds of glucose transporters. Glut-1 and Glut-4. While Glut-1 is totally genetic, and the amount you have at birth is the amount you will have throughout your natural life, Glut-4 on the other hand is not. Things that affect glut-4 transporters are training and drugs such as ALA and Metformin. (Metformin BTW only increases glucose up-take by 10-40% depending on the individual) What ALA does is increase the number of glut-4 transporters drastically that are in the muscle cells therefore letting them increase the amount of glucose they can "suck-up" into the muscle cell. The increase in glut-4 transporters was shown to increase glucose up-take by 50% at my specified dosage. As you know 1gram of glucose=1 gram of carbs. Now, the amount of glycogen muscles can normally hold is roughly 350g. If the muscle-cells increase their glucose up-take by 50%, they will be able to hold 175g more glucose(175 more carbs) to a total of 525g carbs. Thats 700Kcal extra you could eat a day, without getting fat. And amp, IT WOULD DEFINATELY make your muscles fuller. Godspeed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lawnsaver Olympian Posts: 1918 From:FL Registered: Sep 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:11 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz, you inspired me last night to order some. ------------------ " That which does not kill me, will make me stronger" "Catch a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ROIDRANGER Freak Posts: 2562 From:an underground-gym near you Registered: Sep 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:16 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- so now: best places to get it from cheap???? is that 'kilosport' place good.... ------------------ power to gain from the ROIDRANGER. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The_Iron_Game Freak Posts: 2498 From: Registered: Oct 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:43 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz I am still not clear on something, I believe you have made a slight mistake in your figures. Once your muscles have been saturated with glycogen say after 5-7 days then by consuming this extra 700cals every day is not all going to be used to get into the muscle and replenish and increase glycogen stores. It is pretty much similar to the effects of creatine. You start off a loading dose and once the muscle has been saturated you can start with the maintain dose, any more and it is simply wasted. I also find it very unlikely that if I consume 5000 calories of carbs a day that I can consume an extra 2500 calories of carbs without putting on fat. This is not a flame but that is rediculous. The carbs would have to be spread out a day and excess calories over what the muscle needs to grow will be stored as fat although this lipoic acid will very much reduce this. Peace -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mass Monster Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 854 From: Registered: Dec 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:49 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Great post bro! Very informative! Mass Monster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:50 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by The_Iron_Game: Fonz I am still not clear on something, I believe you have made a slight mistake in your figures. Once your muscles have been saturated with glycogen say after 5-7 days then by consuming this extra 700cals every day is not all going to be used to get into the muscle and replenish and increase glycogen stores. It is pretty much similar to the effects of creatine. You start off a loading dose and once the muscle has been saturated you can start with the maintain dose, any more and it is simply wasted. I also find it very unlikely that if I consume 5000 calories of carbs a day that I can consume an extra 2500 calories of carbs without putting on fat. This is not a flame but that is rediculous. The carbs would have to be spread out a day and excess calories over what the muscle needs to grow will be stored as fat although this lipoic acid will very much reduce this. Peace -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lipoic acid is not a licence to eat carbs. But, that last part you said is exactly what LIpoic acid is good for. Maximizing Glycogen storage while minimizing fat storage from too many carbs. I think in general people eat WAY TOO many carbs. Try eating 500g Carbs or less with lipoic and you will gain little if no fat. If you eat like 800g carbs/day then everything is different don't you think? Godspeed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:58 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'l be a little more concise. Maintenance for me is 3000Kcal. If I follow a 60% carb/40%prot/20%fat diet, then 1800 of those 3000Kcal come from carbs. Thats 450grams. Now, I can normally hold 375g Carbs in my muscles, so I'm eating 75g extra carbs. These 75g Carbs(300Kcal) will go into fat storage. Thats roughly 1 pound of fat every 12 days. Now, lets say I Add lipoic acid. And increase my glucose up-take and carb storage. Then my muscles can hold: 375g+375*0.5=563g Carbs. If I'm now consuming 450g Carbs a day, I'm creating a 113g carb(452 Kcal) differential. If I do cardio I could then lose 1 pound of fat every 8 days instead of gaining one pound every 12 days, solely throught the addition of ALA. Godspeed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 40butpumpin Amateur Bodybuilder Posts: 117 From:Schenectady, NY USA Registered: Feb 2001 posted March 14, 2001 04:58 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I found a place (actually "BlackOp" told me about it) that has excellent prices, it's: www.nathigh.com They sell Natrol's ALA (50 caps at 300 mg each) for $19.95. That's $0.13 per milligram. Thanks for the info Fonz., I'm definitely going to give the stuff a shot. I'd be interested in hearing all of your experiences with it over the coming weeks. Maybe there really is something to this stuff. I'm not an expert by any measure but it certainly does sound like insulin is a big player in bodybuilding. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JUICESEEKER Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 877 From: Registered: Feb 2000 posted March 14, 2001 05:04 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FONZ, YOU HAVE MAIL! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The_Iron_Game Freak Posts: 2498 From: Registered: Oct 2000 posted March 14, 2001 05:06 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thats where I noted the irregularity, primarily being an individual thing. Some respond well others do not. Me being more concise = 8000cals/day bulking and found it hard to believe that I could eat another 2500 calories of carbs without adding fat. Even with insulin you can put on fat At the end of the day its all about calorie manipulation Peace [This message has been edited by The_Iron_Game (edited March 14, 2001).] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- livinbig Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 332 From:From The Iron Pit Registered: Jan 2000 posted March 14, 2001 05:16 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Great Info FONZ.... thanks ------------------ **If the bar stops movin push Harder** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amp Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 516 From:Anytown, USA Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 05:22 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Fonz: Lipoic acid is not a licence to eat carbs. Where could I obtain a license to eat carbs? I would love to get one of these. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Big Johnson Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 446 From:CALIFORNIA Registered: Feb 2001 posted March 14, 2001 06:34 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HEY FONZ, I THOUGHT YOU LIVED IN THE UK...WHAT'S THIS ABOUT SENATOR HATCH AND THE FDA??? ------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 06:39 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Big Johnson: HEY FONZ, I THOUGHT YOU LIVED IN THE UK...WHAT'S THIS ABOUT SENATOR HATCH AND THE FDA??? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do live in the UK. But the Hatch Act is pretty renowned around the world. It basically states that all NATURAL-occuring substances are SUPPLEMENTS and not DRUGS. Kind of hard to miss....... Godspeed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Big Johnson Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 446 From:CALIFORNIA Registered: Feb 2001 posted March 14, 2001 06:43 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FROM http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/Archives/Forum1/02-2001/050611.html quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Fonz: I have a feeling Deca Dick is counter-acted by RU-486. Been using it at 1mg/Kg everyday and I'm still horny as always. Victorias secret underwear does it everytime for me on Valentine's.... But, I disgress, Ru-486, normally seels for $10-15 for a 200mg pill on the street. But, since I live in the UK and this drug is OTC now, I get it for $1.50 a pill. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHY WOULD YOU THANK SENATOR HATCH FOR ANYTHING IF YOU LIVE IN THE UK? ------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Big Johnson Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 446 From:CALIFORNIA Registered: Feb 2001 posted March 14, 2001 06:50 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT ABOUT OUR FRIENDS AT THE FDA? SORRY BRO, YOU SOUND LIKE YOU LIVE IN THE US. NOT TO MENTION THE FACT, AS MACRO POINTED OUT, RU486 IS NOT AVAILABLE OTC IN THE UK AS YOU CLAIM IT IS. MAYBE JOHNNY O SHOULD TRACE YOUR IP FOR US ------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 06:52 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Big Johnson: FROM http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/Archives/Forum1/02-2001/050611.html WHY WOULD YOU THANK SENATOR HATCH FOR ANYTHING IF YOU LIVE IN THE UK? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You should know anything the US government does, the UK government almost always copies..... Godspeed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fener Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 478 From:rome italy Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 06:58 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ok fonz i bought ala and i'm carbing up with great results but i have to disagree with you theory. let's say you can normally hold 350gs of glucose in your muscles.and let's say you start suppplementing with ala so you'll be able to hold 560g of glucose.i see you will create a deficit of 210x4=840kcals. ok now, after a while your muscles have reached saturation holding 560g of glucose. at this point how can you create a caloric deficit since you have allready reached saturation and no more extra carbs are beeing stored? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RADAR Amateur Bodybuilder Posts: 63 From:Eastman Registered: Mar 2001 posted March 14, 2001 07:04 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- good info..gonna give it a try -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 07:09 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Fener: ok fonz i bought ala and i'm carbing up with great results but i have to disagree with you theory. let's say you can normally hold 350gs of glucose in your muscles.and let's say you start suppplementing with ala so you'll be able to hold 560g of glucose.i see you will create a deficit of 210x4=840kcals. ok now, after a while your muscles have reached saturation holding 560g of glucose. at this point how can you create a caloric deficit since you have allready reached saturation and no more extra carbs are beeing stored? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After you reach saturation, you're obviously not going to be able to lose any weight. You still have to work out while on ALA. So, if you took 350g Carbs WHILE working out and taking ALA(basically what you were doing before with the exception of the ALA) you WILL be able to lose weight..... Godspeed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fener Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 478 From:rome italy Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 07:18 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- so you mean that once you 've reached saturation you will create a deficit only on workout days,when after training glycogen stores have been depleted, and you will again be able to store more carbs as glycogen, got it right? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 07:22 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Fener: so you mean that once you 've reached saturation you will create a deficit only on workout days,when after training glycogen stores have been depleted, and you will again be able to store more carbs as glycogen, got it right? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Right on Fener. Gives you a hell of a lot more lee-way doesn't it..... Godspeed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fener Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 478 From:rome italy Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 07:39 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yeah, btw i carbed up today with 800mg of ala and when i looked in the mirror i was fucking bloated! just hope it doesn't increase also fat cells volume as someone was saying in another thread. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- santo smith Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 920 From: wi Registered: Oct 2000 posted March 14, 2001 07:43 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- how many mg of the L acid do you need to take to see results and for how long -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 07:44 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Fener: yeah, btw i carbed up today with 800mg of ala and when i looked in the mirror i was fucking bloated! just hope it doesn't increase also fat cells volume as someone was saying in another thread. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1g of carbs forms 1g of glycogen complexed with 4g of water. So, if you take 50% more carbs then glycogen is increased from 350g to 525g(just an example). Water retention is also increased from 1.4KG to 2.1Kg. Thats a 1lb water increase....... Godspeed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- blackdream71 Amateur Bodybuilder Posts: 73 From:HELL!!!!!!!!!! Registered: Jan 2001 posted March 14, 2001 07:45 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i'll definitely have to try some of that!!!!!!!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUSTANG_18 Olympian Posts: 1511 From:canada Registered: Sep 2000 posted March 14, 2001 08:24 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THANKS FOR THE INFO! GOOD POST, I THINK THIS WOULD BE A GREAT ADDITION TO ANYONE ON OR OFF A CYCLE. M18

 

[Fonz]

"Yes VG. ALA would overcome GH-induced insulin
resistance.
Another drug whuch overcomes GH-induced
insulin resistance is TROGLITAZONE.
Another diabetic drug."

Troglitazone (Rezulin) was pulled from the market due to hepatotoxicity. Now you get Rosiglitazone (Avandia).

Part of GH's effects is by increasing lipolysis and elevating free fatty acid levels. This is a double edged sword, since the elevated fatty acids reduce insulin sensitivity, but prevent muscle catabolism for fuel. This seems to be the method of anti-catabolism that is seen in thermogenics...there is a shifting of fuel utilization to lipids, and a decrease in insulin function. Trying to improve glucose utilization may counter some of the anti-catabolic effects of GH.

Also, FONZ, your mathematical formulas are giving the body 100% efficiency, and we know that it is not. Not all of the glucose will be used for glycogen, some will be oxidized for fuel, and some will be stored in adipocytes.

Cockedzl, come on I was just trying to simplify things.
I think everybody knows no bio-chemical process
is 100% efficient.
Thanks for the Troglitazone info though. I didn't know that.


TrevDog, thanks for saving it as the archives are down
and I forgot to save it.
It was a great thread

Godspeed

 

[dav6id]

ALA 3000 mgs daily

can anyone tell me if 3000 mgs a day of ALA is a little toxic or can have bad side affects? i'm doing 3000 mgs a day and I feel lean and healthier than ever.

 

[jboldman]

I seemed to have lost the reference to the normal human response to ala. If someone could post the study that shows normal humans response to ala re insulin sensitiviy i would appreciate it. I also still have my original concern that the ala used in these studies is the R-(+) enantiomer not the "S" and since the "R" is not available commercially to us, these studies are meaningless to us!

jb

 

[yiyangzhi]

Side Effects with Thioctic Acid

Side effects with Thioctic Acid are rare. Besides the skin rash that Fonz mentioned, ALA can cause the potential of hypoglycemia in diabetic patients. Those deficient in Vitamin B1, esp alcoholics should take Vitamin B1 along with ALA. ALA has been shown to interfere with the actions of Biotin in animals.

The amount of ALA used in research to improve diabetic neuropathies is 800mg/day and 150mg/day for glaucoma. As low as 20-50mg/day is recommended by some doctors for general antioxidant protection. 600mg/day is the best dosage as studies appear to show no added benefit to larger doses.

R.A. Passwater, Lipoic Acid: The Metabolic Antioxidant.(New Canaan, CT:Keats Publishing, Inc., 1995).

 

[yiyangzhi]

I just read another thread on ALA where bros, including Fonz advocate mega doses of up to 3000mg/day! It has never been proven scientifically that mega-doses offer extra benefit or increase the efficacy of ALA.