Advice on bodybuilding

[bignate73]

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That's total bullshit.

W6

total? how relevent would accentuating the eccentric movement be for muscle gain then? controlled rep speed is paramount, especially in the eccentric, for safety and hypertrophy.

if i were training a new person, rep tempo is very important in the beginning before we talk numbers. set the quality of movement before you set the difficulty. many new trainees will speed through a set to make the rep goal, or twist and buck to lift the goal weight. for the sake of progressive overload?

ya gotta think outside the box and look from a trainer's perspective. new trainees can be eager to please and if weight is the concern, improper movement patterns and compensation will rule over good clean reps. no one knows how this woman works out. nothing wrong with lifting heavy but only after the basics are mastered. if a bench press starts getting hard, first thing you see a new trainee do is twist their body to compensate, and press at all costs. many times a compound movement done with free weights can get massacred if the fundamentals of the movement arent taught and practiced in a controlled setting (machine work). example: seated row vs. bent over barbell row.

(not to you W6) all too often i see people jump on the back of a trainer because everyone has an opinion. but quite frankly, the trainer knows more about the client than the client does. there are reasons for not doing a particular movement. why its done slow, or fast. sometimes it feels like pulling in the reins on a trainee but its so they progress in the proper manner instead of building bad habits or risking injury.

as a final note, i hope that you have a good trainer, that monitors your progress and has a plan as to why you may or may not be doing things the way you are. im not defending said trainer, but the overall misconception that i see too often on here, that the trainer is wrong and everyone else has a better way. if thats the case.....why arent there more people working as trainers? its easy to be a backseat driver, but getting in the driver's seat is a whole different ball game.

 

[Sassy69]

I think there's some awesome points being made here - but for someone who is getting started there's a learning curve that allows you to go from knowing absolutely nothing & being completely dependent upon your trainer, to become less dependent on the trainer & more dependent upon yourself. During that time it can be very frustrating because the results come slow and while you are asking the questions, you get completely confused by all the different and often completely conflicting comments. Then, to make it worse, you try to ask your trainer, who you think should know where you are and what you are there for -- except you just get a canned answer that, if anything, holds you back. From all of that its up to you to filter out the crap & hold on to the good stuff. Further, of all the good stuff, you have to find out what actually works for you. And to find that out, it often takes 4-6 weeks of diet change or training to actually see quantifiable results.

So what do you want to come out of this all with:

- Build your own confidence as to your knowledge of what you are and should be doing. If you want to try something - try it! But keep in mind that if it doesn't feel right or the weight is too much, cut back, get a spotter or ask for some pointers on what you are trying.

- Extend your variety of training moves by asking questions - what other moves will exercise this or that muscle. If you see someone doign a particular move, ask what muscle it is working & what basic move is it similar to (e.g. cable row / bent over dumbbell row). If you can identify the moves that exercise the same muscle, you can use these to add variety to your training schedule while still accomplish the same muscle workout.

- Try different combinations of training & cardio.

- Watch how your diet interacts with your training & cardio - how do you feel if you are low-carbing on a heavy leg day? Probably crappy. Try adjusting your diet with your trainign schedule for improved results.

- Try the same variations with your diet as well.

Fitness is a lifestyle & you will spend your whole life learning it & living it. As you educate yourself, you learn how to tweak your diet & training for better results. When you start looking at competition you will really appreciate how little things will make your body respond in different ways. That is when you will have a full appreciation for the time & work that go into competition & the fact that it takes more than one to realy get the hang of it. But, as I said, its a lifestyle, not a living!

 

[Realgains]

total? how relevent would accentuating the eccentric movement be for muscle gain then? controlled rep speed is paramount, especially in the eccentric, for safety and hypertrophy.

if i were training a new person, rep tempo is very important in the beginning before we talk numbers. set the quality of movement before you set the difficulty. many new trainees will speed through a set to make the rep goal, or twist and buck to lift the goal weight. for the sake of progressive overload?

ya gotta think outside the box and look from a trainer's perspective. new trainees can be eager to please and if weight is the concern, improper movement patterns and compensation will rule over good clean reps. no one knows how this woman works out. nothing wrong with lifting heavy but only after the basics are mastered. if a bench press starts getting hard, first thing you see a new trainee do is twist their body to compensate, and press at all costs. many times a compound movement done with free weights can get massacred if the fundamentals of the movement arent taught and practiced in a controlled setting (machine work). example: seated row vs. bent over barbell row.

(not to you W6) all too often i see people jump on the back of a trainer because everyone has an opinion. but quite frankly, the trainer knows more about the client than the client does. there are reasons for not doing a particular movement. why its done slow, or fast. sometimes it feels like pulling in the reins on a trainee but its so they progress in the proper manner instead of building bad habits or risking injury.

as a final note, i hope that you have a good trainer, that monitors your progress and has a plan as to why you may or may not be doing things the way you are. im not defending said trainer, but the overall misconception that i see too often on here, that the trainer is wrong and everyone else has a better way. if thats the case.....why arent there more people working as trainers? its easy to be a backseat driver, but getting in the driver's seat is a whole different ball game.

W6 is calling BS on the quote...the ideation that you do not need to be concerned about progressive poundages. I agree with him 100% ...that is indeed total BS. W6 is not saying that form and control is not important.


You made some good points above...... BUT that trainer doesn't have a damn clue as he has his client on a high volume routine full of isolation work. The routine will offer minimal and then NO results.

He should be teaching good form and control etc but he should also be teaching proper training for the natural trainee and that entails using big basic compound exercises either exclusively or almost so, decent intensity, low to lowish volume and plenty of days out of the gym each week with a primary focus on progressive poundages used in A-1 form.

Anyone who ever says that one need not worry about progressive poundages doesn't have a clue. If one says this to a beginner one MUST be damn sure to say that we are just working on your form now BUT LATTER ON it is of paramount importance to use progressive poundages.

A steroid user(and I have used) can focus LESS on progressive poundages and focus more on intensity and techniques for increasing intensity but this does not work well or for long for the natural trainee.

Everyone, and especially a natural trainee, should focus on progressive poundages used in each exercise in small to tiny jumps and in perfect form as this is the "Golden Fleece" of bodybuilding.
Unfortuantely it has been all but lost as the popular glossy magazines of the day offer training advice for the genetically gifted heavy steroid using male and female.



RG

 

[spatts]

RG, I have a question. I have no doubt that compound movements are great for growth. However, prior to your edit, you stated that isolation movements yield "NO MASS" for a natural lifter. Did you mean that literally?

 

[vinylgroover]

A trainer is only as good as the advice he is given about a particular persons goals or aims.

If you go to a doctor and he says what's the problem, and you say i'm not sure but i'm in pain......what do you expect the doctor to do for you.

You have to tell your trainer what you want to achieve. If he shows you or tells you something, challenge him and get him to explain why.

Go in there and say look, i'm not sure the program you gave me will pack on the most amount of muscle......i really want to compete, therefore can you give me a routine that will yield the best results for putting on muscle.

Tell him you would like a program that focusses on compound movements and free weights. It's a two way street......you have to communicate and express what you want to achieve.

 

[Realgains]

RG, I have a question. I have no doubt that compound movements are great for growth. However, prior to your edit, you stated that isolation movements yield "NO MASS" for a natural lifter. Did you mean that literally?

Well I guess I should be a little more specific here. Beyond the very beginning phase isolation work will add no mass or strength to ones body. In the beginning anything will cause hypertrophy and strength increases but as time progresses less and less improvement is noted and then it finially stops altogether. You can maintain a certain level of mass and strength with them but progressive growth in strength and mass NO.
Isolation work also robs the body of recuperative powers when going hard on the big basic compound movements. Most people have very limited recuperative abilities.

A trainer should be teaching the big basic compound movements FIRST.


That said .... not ALL isolation work is equal. Barbell curls and lying tricep extensions are pretty good for mass and strength and they are pretty isolatory although the barbell curl is less isolatory even done in perfect form. Tricep style dips or close grip benches are superior to the lying tricep extension. Nautilus machine pull overs are pretty good but they are inferior to the simple barbell row or pulldown. Leg extensions and leg curls sometimes can be productive IF done before a compound movement so as to offer some pre exhaust benefit.
Also you have to do isolation work for the abbs and calves as no compound movement really does the job.

Stuff like pec deck flys, cable cross overs, lunges, leg extensions without doing squats or at least deep leg presses, tricep kick backs, leg curls without doing squats and stiff leg deads, lateral raises, bent over db raises, concentration curls etc will not produce gains in strength and mass beyond the first 6 months of training.

Heavy steroid users will see some growth from isoaltion work even if they are quite advanced but nowhere near like the progress they see from compound movements. Also the steroid user has a greatly increased recuperative abilty and the addition of isolation exercises will not drain them.

It would be so much more productive and proper to teach a new trainee how to properly do squats and various types of deadlifts, benches, presses, pulldowns, rows, curls, dips, close grip benches, basic calf work and proper abb work than to spent time on a myriad of isolation work.
Squats and deadlifts REALLTY need to be emphasized as upper body developement will be seriously hindered if these movements are not done correctly and hard.

In fact as far as upper legs are concerned one NEVER needs to do anything besides squats and stiff leg deadlifts.

Shape and denfinition is body fat and genetically determined almost solely.
Leave the majority of the isolation exercises to the VERY advanced competitive bodybuilder that is already very large and strong and shapely....and even then it doesn't do that much for them.

RG

 

[vinylgroover]

Stuff like pec deck flys, cable cross overs, leg extensions, tricep kick backs, leg extensions, lateral raises, bent over db raises, concentration curls etc will not produce gains in strength and mass beyond the first 6 months of training.


RG

RG, part of the problem is steroids.

Take steroids out of the picture, and the above equipment would not have even been manufactured, which is why people (whether it be on these boards or in real life) should always distinguish between training naturally and training on steroids.

But, because those on steroids can make gains by using the above equipment, the novice natural trainee also assumes they can make gains.

 

[spatts]

Thanks for the clarification RG, and VG. I pretty much stick to compound work, but I was just curious.

 

[Realgains]

RG, the problem is steroids.

Take steroids out of the picture, and the above equipment would not have even been manufactured, which is why people (whether it be on these boards or in real life) should always distinguish between training naturally and training on steroids.

But, because those on steroids can make gains by using the above equipment, the novice natural trainee also assumes they can make gains.

YES!

You can blame Weider and his steroid magazines for that as well as most of the pro's save for a few like Yates.
People read the popular magazines and then attempt similar programs but unfortunately the articles forget to mention A HUGE FACTOR in the ability to see results from the program...#1 VERY GOOD GENETICS and #2 Heavy steroid use.

People forget that the pro men are on this much gear....2-4 grams of testosterone PLUS steroids and GH and Slin. The ladies are typically on 200 of deca and 200 of test per week and that provides 4 times the anabolic properties that a normal young man produces.


Take enough gear and it matter little how you train. This is simply not so as a natural trainee.

Before steroids little isolation work was done because it didn't help most. Even the genetically gifted Steve Reeves built his mass with the basics almost solely.

RG

 

[BeeUnique]

Okay! As always you ALL give great advice and I don't feel like you are feeding me a line of crap

I am not sure how much mass I have gained. I am sure that is something the "trainers" should have told me?? My gut feeling is not to continue my training with them BUT I do not have a partner to lift with. Is it possible to gain mass lifting alone? I can't lift that heavy by myself.

I have lost about 4'' off my hips and have gained a few across the chest. Don't have the exact measurements on me. About 8" total. They are now thinking I have some thyroid or hormone problem and want me to see their doctor (cash & carry dr.)...humm.
I just went to my dr and had blood work done and everything came back fine. The trainers tell me this doctor does special tests not done by any other doctors....

Sassy: I know it will be a while before I compete and yes I have been to a couple comps. I would be fine entering in figure, I was just shooting for bb. There is one in September here, I am going to as well.

SteelWeaver: I didn't think your comments were harsh at all, you did crack me up though!

Realgains: I think I will dump the trainers, at least for now. IF it is possible to gain on my own.

Thanks you guys!