If you don't believe Jesus Christ was/is God...

[Strongbow]

I will RAGE in this thread yet.

 

[cindylou]

And the funny thing is, depending on who you're talking to, and which of the various Heathen/Pagan/Neopagan/Witch/Wiccan/Voudon/Etc./Etc. paths they follow, you could (and probably will) get a different answer. The primary thing that makes the various neopagan paths different from conventional religion IS the lack of dogma. Of course, the lack of dogma is precisely why people who prefer/need structured paradigms is why they feel it is acceptable to dismiss us and the validity of our beliefs.

lol, this made me laugh to myself. I have to have structure and order. It's the type of person that I am. MM you are good people.

 

[musclemom]

lol, this made me laugh to myself. I have to have structure and order. It's the type of person that I am. MM you are good people.

I'm so glad you understand what I'm trying to express.

Most people who come to paganism go through a phase where they "christian/bible" bash. I don't know many who are mature enough to resist, and I'm pretty guilty myself. The release from the structured rules is probably quite a bit like being a college freshman living away from home for the first time. With time and maturity most eventually come around to realizing that the true essence of their path is "live and let live" even if we don't agree. I know that what you believe fulfills and satisfies you every bit as much as it left me with a dissatisfied yearning. How can your soul rejoice when you're nagged by things you find irreconcilable? Some people are content with the "cause it says so in the Bible" line, which is very much like a parent saying to a child "because I said so." Some people conclude that perhaps we misunderstand the words and/or the translations are incorrect. Some people get so frustrated they give up on spirituality altogether, others try every form of spirituality there is. Still others believe it is the essence of the God and the words and churches are irrelevant and it's your heart that matters.

I think if I was going to try to express what I'm thinking, it's that pagans believe that which created the universe to be Greater than humanity, to be beyond the flawed meanness and pettiness humanity is prey to. Yet many who follow dogmatic faith (and even the faiths themselves) proselytize of a being that created the Universe which is an abusive, immature bully.

I cannot believe that which created the universe is a needy, jealous, petty jerk. Ergo, I do not believe that the Ultimate Architect gives a hoot in a holler whether we pray or not, or how we pray, or many other things.

All that being said, in hindsight I realize I used an inconsiderate and unfortunate term in my earlier post, and I'd like to modify that. What I should have said was: From the pagan perspective, expecting everyone on the planet to worship ONE god, in ONE manner is every bit as unreasonable as expecting everyone on the planet to eat ONE food prepared using the same recipe every day of their lives.

 

[Strongbow]

The RAGE is building or is that my test levels ?

 

[ceo]

The RAGE is building or is that my test levels ?

what would Jesus do, brah?

 

[Strongbow]

Aight then dude you got me, he wouldn't shoot another gram and rage.

 

[cindylou]

MM, I've been thinking about this I've read most of your posts over the years and I know how you feel about the Christian God. I am so glad that you have not made assumptions about me like most people do and hate me, I don't care about being popular, but I don't want to be friends with just a bunch of Christians.

From my perspective the idea of God not caring about me is depressing. I mean really depressing to me. My God may be immature and a bully to you but to me he is a pursuing lover, strong but jealous, a warrior but full of mercy, and a compassionate and protecting father. I'm in love w/ Him, He's never left me and He can't die. I know I sound insane, I'm blind Those are just the human words how to describe Him but He is infinite, outside our human descriptions and can't be put in a box, thats just one side to His character. Anyone who knows me would know that this romanticized version of God combined with the order and structure of the book is a perfect fit for me. I believe that the bible is a mirror, a spiritual book and we get what we want from it. Maybe its not the be all end all, but it's something to me, something precious. Who is speaking to me when I read it? Is it God or is it me? Some version of me on the inside that I don't know..something!

Who knows where I'll be 10 years from now. I don't go around making threads trying to discredit other religions or beliefs or lifestyles, and I've never tried to convert anyone. Maybe all of our paths lead to the same place, maybe I'll see you in the afterlife, or maybe there is a next lifetime? I know I have a soul and I can't believe my purpose in life is to just live, breathe air and die

 

[musclemom]

MM, I've been thinking about this I've read most of your posts over the years and I know how you feel about the Christian God. I am so glad that you have not made assumptions about me like most people do and hate me, I don't care about being popular, but I don't want to be friends with just a bunch of Christians.

From my perspective the idea of God not caring about me is depressing. I mean really depressing to me. My God may be immature and a bully to you but to me he is a pursuing lover, strong but jealous, a warrior but full of mercy, and a compassionate and protecting father. I'm in love w/ Him, He's never left me and He can't die. I know I sound insane, I'm blind Those are just the human words how to describe Him but He is infinite, outside our human descriptions and can't be put in a box, thats just one side to His character. Anyone who knows me would know that this romanticized version of God combined with the order and structure of the book is a perfect fit for me. I believe that the bible is a mirror, a spiritual book and we get what we want from it. Maybe its not the be all end all, but it's something to me, something precious. Who is speaking to me when I read it? Is it God or is it me? Some version of me on the inside that I don't know..something!

Who knows where I'll be 10 years from now. I don't go around making threads trying to discredit other religions or beliefs or lifestyles, and I've never tried to convert anyone. Maybe all of our paths lead to the same place, maybe I'll see you in the afterlife, or maybe there is a next lifetime? I know I have a soul and I can't believe my purpose in life is to just live, breathe air and die

I don't know if what I'm going to say is going to make you angry, feel better, worse or more confused, but I'm going to try to explain things as I (very incompletely) understand them. Try thinking of it this way: God cares about you the way you care about one single cell in your body. Do NOT get hung up on that piece of information, though. Remember that Christ compared the kingdom of heaven to a mustard seed? Humans have to get beyond the concept that the universe is bound by the rules of OUR plane. Size DOESN'T matter. So that one cell of your body is precious, just like that single mustard seed.

"God" doesn't NEED to care about you because you are a part of "God" (just like you don't care about any cell in your body, really). Actually, the part of you that is Divine is in constant contact with that which is the Creative force of the Universe. Eventually we evolve the point of achieving constant awareness of "the All" to see the connections and then there is a whole other level of information available to us and we move closer to reuniting with that force (that's where beings like Christ and the Buddha were moving to).

HOWEVER, we're talking about, for lack of a better word, "Big G God" which is such an inadequate word. There really is no word/name for the source that is the Universe that created the Universe. I think of it as the Tao.

There is also "Little G God" which Yahweh falls into (the God of the Old Testament, the tribal god of the Jewish people). He is there, accessible, just like the other gods he was so jealous of are also there. His myths have become woven into Christianity, which was brought to us by Christ, who was an evolved being that tried to teach us how to move along the path of spiritual evolution, but his message is/was contorted because it was being heard by people who had been fed on the myths and legends of Yahweh.

Christ is absolutely accessible to you and wants nothing more for humanity than for us to get his message, but Christ is not A God or even THE GOD (however, try googling "the Christ Consciousness"). Remember, he said to his disciples they could do everything he could and more? (I can't find the exact quote). It's like that.

Frankly, the idea of dying then sitting around for the rest of eternity strumming a harp and singing the praises of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost seems incredibly depressing, to me. The idea that my soul's purpose is to learn, grow and evolve seems a little more useful.

 

[mrplunkey]

From MY perspective: Harm is different from Hurt. Harm is extreme, intense, life changing trauma type experiences (as in, the fact my father beat my mother caused me permanent psychological harm). Hurt is, life wise, stubbing your toe. Taking something from someone, like, say, a wallet, falls under the category of hurt. Causing someone to lose their business and livelihood, destroying them financially so their life is in ruins, that's harm.

If you're talking something like adultery (i.e., "that woman took my husband away from me") I see that as a two way street because I honestly don't believe you can "take" anyone's spouse away from them if the marriage is inherently sound (and everyone I know whose been involved on one side or the other of adulterous or cheating relationships agrees, although sometimes it takes a long time for the "wronged" party to accept this reality).

And the funny thing is, depending on who you're talking to, and which of the various Heathen/Pagan/Neopagan/Witch/Wiccan/Voudon/Etc./Etc. paths they follow, you could (and probably will) get a different answer. The primary thing that makes the various neopagan paths different from conventional religion IS the lack of dogma. Of course, the lack of dogma is precisely why people who prefer/need structured paradigms is why they feel it is acceptable to dismiss us and the validity of our beliefs.

Pagan beliefs harken back to a time in human existence when we were more tribal, and each of those tribes had their traditions. Just because the traditions (and gods) varied from one tribe to another that didn't invalidate them. From the pagan perspective, expecting everyone on the planet to worship ONE god, in ONE manner is every bit as stupid as expecting everyone on the planet to eat ONE food prepared using the same recipe every day of their lives.

If someone broke into your home and took everything you had, would that be "Harm" or "Hurt"?

 

[musclemom]

If someone broke into your home and took everything you had, would that be "Harm" or "Hurt"?

If they didn't physically hurt my family, me, and didn't so much as let any of the cats out? Hurt. It's only stuff.

If your house burns to the ground, but you and your loved ones escape unscathed, then you realize just what is really precious.

But, I have a slightly different perspective than a lot of people. I've started over before as an adult. I gave up virtually all of my material possessions when I left my first husband when I was 30 (some things unknowingly, I didn't realize he had actually stolen stuff from me, too, long story). But the truth was, he was such a big baby throwing tantrums over his "stuff" that it was easier to say "Fine, take the g'damned T.V./VCR/CD collection and stick it up your ass."

EDIT: I need to qualify this response further. For some people, having their house cleaned out would be harm, for me it probably wouldn't for the reason I've given. Go back to the first paragraph of my post: "Harm is extreme, intense, life changing trauma type experiences." Having your wallet stolen isn't the same as having your home robbed. And honestly, I'm not thinking of being robbed at the point of a weapon, or home invasion, which would be traumatic. I'm thinking along the lines of having your pocket picked or you turn your back and your purse is gone and even with the house robbery I'm imagining a scenario where you come home from vacation and you've been cleaned out.

I mean, my garage got cleaned out of around $1,000 in tools and equipment a few years ago. Pissed me off and caused me to amp up security, but it didn't harm me.