Wow, this forum is horrible.

[Deleted member 33117]

Well, this is what I'm talking about. Everybody talks about the science of pro-hormones when all you have to do is say, they're lousy steroids. And once you inject them, you're breaking the law, so why not use real gear? I'll never understand that.

BB.com is the perfect example of sophmoric expertise. They're essentially a bunch of kids who look to supplement salesman for their information. The resedent steroid expert (Big Cat) never did steroids. The resident PH expert (Dante) doesn't use PH's. And the main guy (1fast400) admits he doesn't even lift weights. Real presdigious bunch over there.

Sure, I've had my flamefests on the anabolic board, but except for one or two assholes, at least they know what they're talking about and will offer a reasonable retort. The people at BB.co are just a little clique that want to stick their head in the sand and refuse to listen to anyone outside their little community. That board is the biggest joke on the net.


Good supps? Well, the ingredients I've been advocating for years are the ones I suggested using in the Protein Factory line. But they have a specific purpose. There are other good supps like MSM, Glucosmaine,vinpocitine, lycopene, creatine, lecithin...plenty that are worthwhile. But again, most are nothing but pure scams.

So true Nelson. At least those who have done a great deal of research on steroids have an understanding of how the body regulates the production and disposal of androgens, as well as the difficulty of developing in impressive physique even with the ad of a number of potent drugs. This also gives us some insight into the problems associated with actually trying to use prohormones for the purpose of building muscle mass. Pro-hormone users who read alot (mostly biased information) often do not even understand the fundiments of this area or what the compounds they are using actually are. Conversion rates in vitro are totally useless inside a human body attempting to maintain homostatsis. Those conversion rates may be close if someone has a low testerone level, but once one's blood serum testosterone levels approach, and especially once they exceed, what is normal for that individual, that rate will rapidly begin to fall off. Furthermore, the androgens that inter the bloodstream via the use of these compounds will suppress the htpa. This is why anything less than supralogical doses of these compounds will yield nothing of benefit. The conversion into, or even introduction in the case of anabolic steroids (including 1-test) are not in addition too one's existing testosterone, but rather it replaces it. And once the level of androgens pressent from this conversion process begins to exceed that of one's normal production, the conversion process will quickly come to a halt. The body will maintain homostatis.

Nelson, perhaps you could shed some more light on this? I really do NOT wish to type a 10 page post on the problem with this process.

 

[Nelson Montana]

BBF: YOu pretty much said it all. The only effect you can possible get from PH's is the increase in estrogen -- and no one wants to believe that. But e will cause bloat (i.e."growth") and an increase in libido. So the users THINK it's working. Then when you tell them the reality of the situation they get all pissy and start throwing technical data at you.

Look, at one time I was like a lot of these so called experts. I had plenty of book knowledge but I still looed like crap after 20 years of training. Then I realized it isn't how much you know, but what you know that WORKS that counts. That's when I trasformed my physique at age 38, drug free-- pro-hormone free.

And yes, until you do steroids, you're just going by what the "book" says, but you have no idea what is accurate or not. You have to do anything to fully understand it. Sure, the coach doesn't have to be as good as the player in order to coach him. But he has to have played the game.

 

[javaguru]

1) the definition of a pro-hormone is a steroid precursor that is converted into an active androgen by the liver. So yes, I assume the benefits of a pro-hormone would occur as a result of conversion.

Actually, the word pro means 'before', look it up in the dictionary, which simply means it's the before hormone. Also, hormones are metabolized in many other places than the liver. For example, testosterone is a pro hormone for DHT which is synthesized in the target tissues(prostate). You also missed the point which is that either conversion is extremely high and the enzyme limitation is small or there is intrinsic anabolic activity. The fact 4-androstenediol grew muscle tissue to 95% the size of an equal dose of testosterone in the rat levator ani assay indicates one of these two are the most likely case.

2) testosterone cypionate is not converted by the liver. The cypionate ester that is suspending the testosterone molecule will removed while it is still in the area of injection. It is not a converstion of a hormone precurser (building block) into a useful hormone, it is mearly a removal of an ester that is suspeding it for a slower release into the bloodstream. Two toally seperate things. The removal of the ester will always happen. The conversion of a precurer into an active hormone is more likely to NOT occur with any given molecule of a prohormon.

see above

3) people get good results from 1-test because it is an anabolic steroid. I've never said it wasn't a good drug, only that the $$$ cost to gain ratio sucks.

4) people are getting good results from 1-AD and 4-AD products possibly through a placebo effect, but I think, given the information currently in circulation, that they are getting results because there are illegal and very powerful anabolic steroids in those products that are not suppost to be there.

I haven't seen any evidence of any significant amount of any type of illegal contamination. I know there were issues with some initial batches quite a while ago but that was corrected very quickly, and it was unmodified versions of drugs which have terrible oral bioavailability. If you're platinum you can do a search on my injectable 4-ad cycle experiment. I was unexpectedly surprised at its effectiveness. There was no possibility of placebo as I was already well past my genetic potential when I did the experiment, which is why it was so surprising. My first cycle was in the early 90's and I've experimented with quite a few drugs over the years, I know what it feels like. Likewise, there are numerous users on animals board proclaiming its effectiveness. One person had their test levels checked over a week after their last injection of 4-ad and they were almost twice high normal, and that's with animals oil and no ester kit.

5) you buy tren from an underground lab? Amatuer. You have now lost your credibility with the hardcore among us. Where I live, the United States, the beef industry has alot of political power, so its an over the counter drug. And very inexpensive. We don't want the price of steaks to do up, now do we?

Please read my post, at no time did I state that I purchased TA from an underground lab, for the record I haven't. Allow me to state my point again. Once converted from a kit into usable form its presence with syringes would be enough to convict you just as if you bought a bottle from an underground lab. I have enough chemistry knowledge to convert my own without a kit. The anabolic steroid control act only exempts it for use in animals. 4-AD converted to an injectable form does not carry the same consequences. I don't care how much 4-ad you have in your possession, under the current laws you'll never be facing a felony distribution charge carrying a minimum five year prison sentence.

 

[Synpax]

"Since you use 1-test, bear in mind you are using a weak anabolic steroid, thus are a juicer, a steroid user, not a pro-hormone user. Thus your argument is moot, and totally without merit."

Then why was my question about 1-test earlier that I put on the steriod moved from the steriod board to this one? Why do the places I shop for it list it as a "pro-hormone"? Why do so many other people consider 1-test a pro-hormone?

BTW - I am paying $0.057 (US) per 100mg. I've talked to others who have used full cycles and are paying 1300-1500 for their 12 week stuff. Granted, they get more gains, but are facing greater side effects ANd are breaking the law (in the US).

 

[Deleted member 33117]

"Since you use 1-test, bear in mind you are using a weak anabolic steroid, thus are a juicer, a steroid user, not a pro-hormone user. Thus your argument is moot, and totally without merit."

Then why was my question about 1-test earlier that I put on the steriod moved from the steriod board to this one? Why do the places I shop for it list it as a "pro-hormone"? Why do so many other people consider 1-test a pro-hormone?

BTW - I am paying $0.057 (US) per 100mg. I've talked to others who have used full cycles and are paying 1300-1500 for their 12 week stuff. Granted, they get more gains, but are facing greater side effects ANd are breaking the law (in the US).

What uneducated people consider a compound to be, has not bearing on what it is. So if a group of high school drops outs start declaring the that German Shepherds are not dogs, but acutally a bread of hairy pigs shall we just agree with them, and put this in zoology books? 1-test is not a prohormone, and I don't even seen the resembalance.

1) any jackass who pays $1300 for a 12 week cycles that doesn't involve growth-hormone, is quite gullible and really, I could care less what they do. Their willness to pay 4 to 5 times what something is actually worth has no bearing what course of action more intelligent people should take in their own endevors.

2) I use fairly hefty doses of anabolic steroids and get very few side effects. This is because I know what I am doing. We are talking about relative levels of free testosterone. Increase your dose to 1-test to the point where your serum testosterone levels are as high as mine, and I suspect you will get more side effects than I do, and pay more $$$. We are talking about an isssue of dosage now. Because you are using a lower dose and making smaller gains, does not make 1-test a lower side effect or most cost effective drug. By that same tolken, I could reduce my doses of anabolics to the point where my relative hormone levels were on par with yorus from using 1-test and would probably pay less money per month of my cycle than a user of 1-test.

3) legally is only an issue because of corrupt and/or misguided individuals who push such laws through. For some of us, we will do our best to find loopholes or avoid being caught in order to achieve our dreams. If currently pending legislation is passed, your 1-test AND prohormones will be just as illegal, if not more so. I will still be able to purchase some of mine legally. You will not, and will have to throw out what you have stored up to avoid being a felon. When that happens, and I believe it more likely than not that these laws will be passed, will you then switch to trenbolone or dianbol?

 

[javaguru]

The term "pro hormone" is simply a marketing term used by companies since the introduction of androstenedione. You can't call it a steroid, even though it technically is a steroid, as it would be associated with illegal steroids and that's bad for marketing. It also described the means by which supplement companies believed it acted, by being converted to an illegal steroid in the human body. However, many illegal steroids are also pro hormones because they convert to other hormones in the human body. For example, Testosterone is the pro hormone for DHT and estrogen. 1-test is not a "pro hormone" even under the supplement copmpany definition because it does not require conversion for its method of action. However, in the case of 4-androstenediol , it appears to be both a pro hormone to testosterone and have intrinsic anabolic activity or it doesn't suffer from much of an enzyme conversion limitation.

 

[javaguru]

bump

 

[Sir Foxx]

BodyBy,

Your unfounded accucsations about 1-AD containing Dianabol should be taken up with Patrick Arnold. Since its his company that makes it, I'm sure Patrick would love to discuss your slanderous lies.

 

[lordValmont]

Are we talking glutamine? or peptides. The reason I ask is because protein factory sells it.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

BodyBy,

Your unfounded accucsations about 1-AD containing Dianabol should be taken up with Patrick Arnold. Since its his company that makes it, I'm sure Patrick would love to discuss your slanderous lies.

Well, when the research is published, he can take it up with the scientist who did the lab work. Although I don't think his suit would go over very well with the judge. I'm only passing on information that I've heard from a source I consider to be a reliable one. In the mean time, I'm going to sit back and see what becomes of this.