Wow, this forum is horrible.

[rnch]

wasn't one of muscletech's PH's tested and found to have traces of AS in it?....acetabolin or somthing like that.............

 

[FunkMasterFlex]

CLa has plent of research behind it....i used it for 6 months and when i stopped i realized it allowed me to maintain 8% or lower BF where as 10% without it. THere are about 15 studies....ill get the links up soon.

 

[E23]

I have used it twice both at the recommended and doubled dosages with no noticable improvement. Therefore, in my opinion, it sucks.

All the studies in its effectiveness in humans that I have seen are inconclusive.

Do what you want though

You have used 30 g of CLA /d, the rec. is 15 g of Tonalin

 

[Nelson Montana]

I've found "supplement heads" to be the most belligerent types on these boards. I think it stems from the fact that they won't use anything illegal, for whatever reason, but they're very informed on the science of supplements, therefore they have strong convictions. Unfortunately, the science is a bunch of horseshit for the most part. But anyone who's commited themself to studying it, doesn't want to admit he's wasted his time.

You can't blame them. All they have is the information from the supp companies and supp gurus. (Hardly unbiased). Having said that, some supps are great, even though I can say with all honestly that 98% of what is sold is garbage, and even some the "winners" like glutamine are a total waste of money. Meanwhile, some of the best stuff is reletively inexpensive yet it's ignored.

 

[fogg88]

I've found "supplement heads" to be the most belligerent types on these boards.

You're joking, right? I've had the 'pleasure' or reading through the flame-fests between you and assorted members over on the anabolics board, and it doesn't get more beligerent than that.

That being said, I gotta' agree with you that aside from a few good supplements, much of what's out there is crapola.

 

[EL GAUCHO]

I second that.
Read my thread on Protein Shakes. I think even those are questionably essential.
Too many bro are reliant on supplements for that extra "edge". The edge they actaully gain is probably not worth the amount spent on supps.
EG

 

[javaguru]

I stand by my statement about prohormones. What does 1-test (a legal anabolic steroid in the US) have to do with this arguement? Prohomrones are steroid "precursers" that may or may not be converted into testosterone or an anabolic steroid by the liver, at different rates in different individuals. Bear in mind that the liver will be most reluctant to allow these compounds to convert to levels that will elevated blood serum levels to a supralogical dose. 1-AD is an example of a prohormone that CAN be converted by the liver into the anabolic steroid 1-testosterone.

Your statement assumes their primary method of action is through conversion. Your argument being based on the theory proposed by supplement companies on how they would benefit a lifter. Which is somewhat contradictory since you tell people to rely on studies for their information. 1-AD user often report superior results orally than 1-test users even though they should have very similar bioavailability. This indicates there is probably some intrinsic anabolic actiom of 1-ad. If you read "Androgens and Anabolics" by Vida et al, 4-androstenediol assayed as 90% as anabolic as testosterone and yet the conversion rate found in an invitro blood study found only a 15% conversion to testosterone.

Likewise, I have yet to year a negative report from anyone using injectable 4-ad. There are plenty of people on transdemal 1-test that love it and have used illegal anabolics. Do a search on animals board or bodybuilding.com.

Since you use 1-test, bear in mind you are using a weak anabolic steroid, thus are a juicer, a steroid user, not a pro-hormone user. Thus your argument is moot, and totally without merit. I will point out that the $$$ cost to gain ratio on 1-test is not at pronounced as that of many popular steroids, nor are the side effects per mg in the bloodstream less than most other steroids, thus I fail to see the major benefit to using it, other than legality, which can often be worked around with legal loopholes for many steroids.

Pro-hormone is just a fancy marketing word for steroid, since they are all steroids by definition. Honestly, Test Cypionate is also a pro hormone because it requires your body to convert it into a usable form, with esterases. 1-test assayed out to be 2x-4x as anabolic as testosterone and much more androgenic, hence the side effects. Its effects and sides are very similar to Tren, I've used both. If by legal loopholes you mean TA then I can tell you it is still just as illegal as buying from an underground lab if used in humans. Therefore, you're one pissed off wife/girlfriend/room mate from going to jail legal loophole or not.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

I've found "supplement heads" to be the most belligerent types on these boards. I think it stems from the fact that they won't use anything illegal, for whatever reason, but they're very informed on the science of supplements, therefore they have strong convictions. Unfortunately, the science is a bunch of horseshit for the most part. But anyone who's commited themself to studying it, doesn't want to admit he's wasted his time.

You can't blame them. All they have is the information from the supp companies and supp gurus. (Hardly unbiased). Having said that, some supps are great, even though I can say with all honestly that 98% of what is sold is garbage, and even some the "winners" like glutamine are a total waste of money. Meanwhile, some of the best stuff is reletively inexpensive yet it's ignored.

Ok, Nelson THIS time we agree, so that makes 3 times. LoL. I fall into a difference category. I've studies this alot, I'm a nutritional science major in school at the moment, and while I wasted a bit of time and money, I can admit that is was a waste, and move on. Again you are correct, the truely effective suppliments are well priced. Creatine monohydrate, fish oil, EFA's, etc are very affordable on any budget.

rnch, I'm not sure about muscletech, but there is a study that was recently done on this, that should be released where alot of popular pro-hormones by major companies were broken down and analyzed. The rumor, form experts who have been allowed to read the info prior to its actually release in peer review journals, is that ALOT of the 1-AD products had a pretty hefty % of their active ingrediants in the form of dianabol. Nice, so people are making gains, of course, but paying WAY too much for their pinkies, and still breaking the law by possessing it, regardless of what type of bottle you have it in. If that were a loophole, I would just store dianabol tabs in a vitamin C bottle to avoid commiting a felony.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Your statement assumes their primary method of action is through conversion. Your argument being based on the theory proposed by supplement companies on how they would benefit a lifter. Which is somewhat contradictory since you tell people to rely on studies for their information. 1-AD user often report superior results orally than 1-test users even though they should have very similar bioavailability. This indicates there is probably some intrinsic anabolic actiom of 1-ad. If you read "Androgens and Anabolics" by Vida et al, 4-androstenediol assayed as 90% as anabolic as testosterone and yet the conversion rate found in an invitro blood study found only a 15% conversion to testosterone.

Likewise, I have yet to year a negative report from anyone using injectable 4-ad. There are plenty of people on transdemal 1-test that love it and have used illegal anabolics. Do a search on animals board or bodybuilding.com.



Pro-hormone is just a fancy marketing word for steroid, since they are all steroids by definition. Honestly, Test Cypionate is also a pro hormone because it requires your body to convert it into a usable form, with esterases. 1-test assayed out to be 2x-4x as anabolic as testosterone and much more androgenic, hence the side effects. Its effects and sides are very similar to Tren, I've used both. If by legal loopholes you mean TA then I can tell you it is still just as illegal as buying from an underground lab if used in humans. Therefore, you're one pissed off wife/girlfriend/room mate from going to jail legal loophole or not.

1) the definition of a pro-hormone is a steroid precursor that is converted into an active androgen by the liver. So yes, I assume the benefits of a pro-hormone would occur as a result of conversion.

2) testosterone cypionate is not converted by the liver. The cypionate ester that is suspending the testosterone molecule will removed while it is still in the area of injection. It is not a converstion of a hormone precurser (building block) into a useful hormone, it is mearly a removal of an ester that is suspeding it for a slower release into the bloodstream. Two toally seperate things. The removal of the ester will always happen. The conversion of a precurer into an active hormone is more likely to NOT occur with any given molecule of a prohormon.

3) people get good results from 1-test because it is an anabolic steroid. I've never said it wasn't a good drug, only that the $$$ cost to gain ratio sucks.

4) people are getting good results from 1-AD and 4-AD products possibly through a placebo effect, but I think, given the information currently in circulation, that they are getting results because there are illegal and very powerful anabolic steroids in those products that are not suppost to be there.

5) you buy tren from an underground lab? Amatuer. You have now lost your credibility with the hardcore among us. Where I live, the United States, the beef industry has alot of political power, so its an over the counter drug. And very inexpensive. We don't want the price of steaks to do up, now do we?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Well, this is what I'm talking about. Everybody talks about the science of pro-hormones when all you have to do is say, they're lousy steroids. And once you inject them, you're breaking the law, so why not use real gear? I'll never understand that.

BB.com is the perfect example of sophmoric expertise. They're essentially a bunch of kids who look to supplement salesman for their information. The resedent steroid expert (Big Cat) never did steroids. The resident PH expert (Dante) doesn't use PH's. And the main guy (1fast400) admits he doesn't even lift weights. Real presdigious bunch over there.

Sure, I've had my flamefests on the anabolic board, but except for one or two assholes, at least they know what they're talking about and will offer a reasonable retort. The people at BB.co are just a little clique that want to stick their head in the sand and refuse to listen to anyone outside their little community. That board is the biggest joke on the net.


Good supps? Well, the ingredients I've been advocating for years are the ones I suggested using in the Protein Factory line. But they have a specific purpose. There are other good supps like MSM, Glucosmaine,vinpocitine, lycopene, creatine, lecithin...plenty that are worthwhile. But again, most are nothing but pure scams.