would this work as a 5x5 variation?

[lavi]

hmmm... who is this thread directed to? lol.

well i didnt want to post this in the 5x5 thread cause i felt it may confuse people even more and add to the mess. anyway, i was wondering about the likes of this. Its basically one of the single-factor ones posted up with a few changes and a deload.

Monday – Heavy Day
Squat – 5 sets of 5 to 5rm
Bench – 5 sets of 5 to 5rm
BB rows – 5 sets of 5 to 5rm

Wednesday – Light Day
Squat – 4 sets of 5
Military press – 4 sets of 5 to 5rm
Deadlifts – 4 sets of 3 to 3rm
Shrugs – 3 sets

Friday - Medium
Squat – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Bench – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
BB rows – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, back-off
Sit-ups – 3 sets

-Every other week instead of deads for 3rm do 4x8 gms/hypers/zerchers etc (something supplemental to the dl).
-Every 5th week do a deload which would be one Monday workout with only 3 reps per set and 1 Wednesday workout the same way except no deads at all. The triples would be 2.5% higher than 5rm weight.

I would basically be going at full blast on the 5rm or 3rm stuff immediately after the deload.

I like the idea of the heavy triples not to failure. in my only 2 years of experience, deads have been the best for my deads so i wanted to keep them in there somewhat.

my stats:
140lbs
squat: ~295
bench: ~215
deadlift: 420

Pretty good or pretty poopy?

 

[Madcow2]

Nothing really wrong. It looks fine (and I really enjoy seeing something that makes sense after spending some time at other BBing boards - it doesn't even need to be close to one of my program, just some basic thought behind it). The most important aspect is how it fits with your conditioning level and addresses your current needs. See how you go with the 1 week of deloading. You might find running it through 2-3 cycles and employing a 2-3 week more complete deload might be something to consider too if you find yourself being more and more taxed.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Your DL is friggin ridiculous for your bodyweight. Nice work. i weight 250 and can't (yet) pull 405.

 

[lavi]

thanks madcow! means a lot to me. Yeah I guess the only thing left is to find out if the deloads are sufficient. I was also wondering if the backoffs on the triples day (which I left in from the original program posted) have any real benefit? Anyway, thanks for your input bro.


guinness - thanks man. My bench and squat are crappy, I have trouble eating myself past 145lbs and my flexibility is horrible. we all have our strengths and weaknesses .

 

[lavi]

oops

 

[lavi]

Madcow I'm about to take a week off and then start this out but I have a few more questions:

1. what is the point of the backoff on the heavy triples day. i just left it in there cause it was there originally

2. would it be a bad idea to do say zerchers for a 3rm every other week instead of doing an accessory for 4x8?

3. i did the single factor 5x5 a while back where you basically go to a 5rm on everything 3x a week. after a while on it, my lower back didnt seem to be recovering from 5rm deads in time for 5rm on squats 2 days later. Do you think thats going to be an issue here too?

 

[Madcow2]

Madcow I'm about to take a week off and then start this out but I have a few more questions:

1. what is the point of the backoff on the heavy triples day. i just left it in there cause it was there originally

2. would it be a bad idea to do say zerchers for a 3rm every other week instead of doing an accessory for 4x8?

3. i did the single factor 5x5 a while back where you basically go to a 5rm on everything 3x a week. after a while on it, my lower back didnt seem to be recovering from 5rm deads in time for 5rm on squats 2 days later. Do you think thats going to be an issue here too?

1) never really looked at it or thought about it. extra volume or practice maybe
2) I don't know depends on the value of zerchers for you and your particular case vs. their inroads into recovery.
3) This is pretty common. The lower back gets hit too much and can't recover. Probably why Starr uses increasing set weights to decrease the workload. You'll notice my program takes a portion of this out (a lot better for people new to this) and a heavier load can be employed by totally removing all of it and using constant set weight for 5x5 every day. Then again, my programs are periodized to allow for recovery whereas the original Starr was not so you have to be a lot more careful because the training is theoretically infinite or at least much longer term and you can't accrue too much fatigue or overtax the body.

 

[lavi]

1) never really looked at it or thought about it. extra volume or practice maybe
2) I don't know depends on the value of zerchers for you and your particular case vs. their inroads into recovery.
3) This is pretty common. The lower back gets hit too much and can't recover. Probably why Starr uses increasing set weights to decrease the workload. You'll notice my program takes a portion of this out (a lot better for people new to this) and a heavier load can be employed by totally removing all of it and using constant set weight for 5x5 every day. Then again, my programs are periodized to allow for recovery whereas the original Starr was not so you have to be a lot more careful because the training is theoretically infinite or at least much longer term and you can't accrue too much fatigue or overtax the body.

thanks for the reply. so i got that you're saying that the lower back fatigue accumulates over time and not just from one workout. so as long as my deloads are sufficient i wont have that issue?

 

[Madcow2]

thanks for the reply. so i got that you're saying that the lower back fatigue accumulates over time and not just from one workout. so as long as my deloads are sufficient i wont have that issue?

Absolutely, it just gets hammered - this is why Westside avoids the DL like the plague (in addition to the heavy tax on the CNS for an advanced lifter able to pull big). It's a balance between use, tolerance, and recovery - you'll have to find out what's right for you and realize that it will change over time.

 

[lavi]

Absolutely, it just gets hammered - this is why Westside avoids the DL like the plague (in addition to the heavy tax on the CNS for an advanced lifter able to pull big). It's a balance between use, tolerance, and recovery - you'll have to find out what's right for you and realize that it will change over time.

i feel like this is a little PM session cause no one likes to post here heh.

ill be using that as an indicator as to when to deload then. ill post up how it goes when i reach my first deload and hopefully i can learn from it .

ill probably switch the shrugs to face pulls since those are less taxing and are also useful. its interesting that pullups arent in this version. is it cause theyre basically the same as rows and an athlete would be better off with dls/powercleans? we'll see if my lats shrink .

 

[Madcow2]

i feel like this is a little PM session cause no one likes to post here heh.

ill be using that as an indicator as to when to deload then. ill post up how it goes when i reach my first deload and hopefully i can learn from it .

It is not necessarily true that your lower back fatigue will signal overreaching. A better guage to use would be a dip in performance. The lower back is just one of those things - some people manage to condition it better and can handle more than others but there comes a point where everyone can overtax it specifically with a lot of deads. Starr also believed in training around the dead and that training it directly was not always the best way to go about increasing it especially for more advanced lifters.

ill probably switch the shrugs to face pulls since those are less taxing and are also useful. its interesting that pullups arent in this version. is it cause theyre basically the same as rows and an athlete would be better off with dls/powercleans? we'll see if my lats shrink .

Good move to swap out the power shrugs if you were concerned with lower back fatigue. You could also experiment with swapping the deads out for clean pulls or similar periodically as this will decrease the load while still be a very effective exercise with strong carryover to the dead (Starr's famous program for increasing the dead without deadlifting is basically goodmornings and clean/snatch pulls).

As far as pullups - you could always add them 1x per week. This was primarily a football workout and although the pullup is a good exercise it isn't essential to the task and doesn't carry over to performance as well as the other motions.

 

[lavi]

It is not necessarily true that your lower back fatigue will signal overreaching. A better guage to use would be a dip in performance. The lower back is just one of those things - some people manage to condition it better and can handle more than others but there comes a point where everyone can overtax it specifically with a lot of deads. Starr also believed in training around the dead and that training it directly was not always the best way to go about increasing it especially for more advanced lifters.



Good move to swap out the power shrugs if you were concerned with lower back fatigue. You could also experiment with swapping the deads out for clean pulls or similar periodically as this will decrease the load while still be a very effective exercise with strong carryover to the dead (Starr's famous program for increasing the dead without deadlifting is basically goodmornings and clean/snatch pulls).

As far as pullups - you could always add them 1x per week. This was primarily a football workout and although the pullup is a good exercise it isn't essential to the task and doesn't carry over to performance as well as the other motions.

I am slowly decreasing my deadlift frequency, this program has it 2x every 5 weeks. I tried wsb style for a month with no deads but then when I tried to deadlift my form sucked and it didnt go very well. I hope I dont have that problem this time.
Ive only got 2 years under my belt, so Ive got time to be "advanced" I was under the impression that the oly lifts arent really the best idea without proper instruction? And about the GMs, once I have the flexibility for them I will give them a go. Ive been trying to stretch out my hammies a few times a day for the past few weeks so I can get to a decent angle on the BB rows.

Well the real reason I havent added pullups is that my current summer gym doesnt have any dip belts. I dont wanna keep adding extra crap so ill try leaving em out this time around. Or I could switch out the shrugs for pulldowns. whatever.

Now I have a whole week ahead of me without iron...