WInny & "Dry Joints" -- Another Myth?

[Nelson Montana]

I never understood the "dry joint" complaint that people have with winny. Personally, I think it's one of these parroted myths that people seem to believe after a while -- just like deca is "good" for the joints. There is no evidence of either, other than the perpetuated rumor. Someone gets a little sore while using Winny and it's like "Oh, I have "dry" joints!" What the fuck are "dry" joints anyway? Does winny decrease collagen? I can see that it blocks estrogen to a degree and THAT may have an effect, but I never hear anyone complaining about dry joints from a-dex or aromasan or nolvadex.

Sometimes people will recommend deca to counteract the affect of deca yet I've never seen any studies on this -- only message board prattle. If anyone has any real evidence of deca repairing joints, please post it up. Then again, I've seen people make these claims about EQ, and there isn;t a single legitimate study on the effects of EQ on any human being. It's amazing the bullshit that manages to flourish.

Actually there is one steroid that has shown the ability to increase collegan synthesis and has even been used to treat such conditions. It's called....WINSTROL. Here ya go: Journal of Investigative Dermatology - Stimulation of Collagen Synthesis by the Anabolic Steroid Stanozolol

Who knows -- maybe those "aching joints" are actually joints that are being repaired.

 

[RickO'Shea]

Nelson, I love you.

 

[burnthiscorpse]

I have never used winny due to this "rumor"/fact, whichever it is. If your joints hurt while on it, it has to be the fact that it lowers your estrogen. I can tell you first hand on the deca/adex subject. I have tendonitis in my tri insertions. Right side alot more so. If it is hurting it will hurt for a while. Accupressure/deep tissue is the only thing that makes it better. Within 2.5-3 days of a 200mg shot of deca my elbows are pain free. Shoulders are void of any pain too.
On the flip side, I despise adex. Fortunatley for me with deca, test, dbol, ect... i dont get any gyno issues. so i dont have to take it. I did take two doses this cycle during dbol. My water drinking was slacking off so I started to retain a little. I took two .25mg doses (which fixed it with a water increase) but even that dose I felt in my joints. Last cycle I made a miscalculation and had to go 10 days "without" while my new test arrived. So I took .5mg of adex E3D during that wait. I have never felt so awful. Joints and body. Never used Aromasin. From my reading it sounds better though.

 

[C.K.]

From my personal experince winny dries my joints, my shoulders just dont rotate like they normally do and pop alot... im sure everyone else speaks for themselves when they say the same

 

[Mac173]

It's just an easy way to describe the feeling that is caused from lowered estrogen.

 

[C.K.]

It's just an easy way to describe the feeling that is caused from lowered estrogen.

Yuppp tren does the exact same to me...

 

[njmuscleguy]

Nelson:

Here is a writeup that I seen on practically every bodybuilding / AAS forum out there... in exactly the same format, so obviously it's been recycled many, many times... I don't really have time at the moment, but I couldn't readily find a RELIABLE source (e.g. Pub Med) to verify it any of the information or claims... but here you go:



While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of anabolic steroids which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use anabolic steroids like sus, testosterone cypionate, or testosterone enanthate.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , Anavar, or Primobolan - methenolone - as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , anavar and Primobolan - methenolone - will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - .

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies doenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other anabolic steroids, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle Clomid use. Here they are:

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - : 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, human growth hormone - somatropin - at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Primobolan - methenolone - , anavar, and Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain anabolic steroids, the decision is up to you.

 

[burnthiscorpse]

very educational read NJmuscle.

 

[aquatic_glories]

great one again bro

 

[C.K.]

^^^What does all that have to do with winstrols effects on joints?

 

[njmuscleguy]

^^^What does all that have to do with winstrols effects on joints?

Nelson was commenting on all the parroting of beliefs that winstrol dries joints and deca helps joints... not too long ago, I actually referenced the cut & paste above saying that I had read somewhere that low dosages (of deca, for example) helped with collagen sythesis (and joints)... again, I don't know where this cut & paste originated, but it's everywhere online

so it's all relevant

 

[mr.nitro]

I can say without a doubt, deca makes joints feel better. why it does isn't important to me.

 

[njmuscleguy]

I can say without a doubt, deca makes joints feel better. why it does isn't important to me.

then that's all that really matters, right?

 

[cmanser]

I can say without a doubt, deca makes joints feel better. why it does isn't important to me.

I would actually like to know if deca is masking the pain or actually repairing the joints somehow????


How do your joints feel when you stop taking the deca? If it was really healing joints they should continue to feel great when use stops.

 

[goin on 4T]

Yep, when I take it the pain seems to go away and when I stop a couple of weeks later there is the pain!
I really like that post NJ I will change my base around a little more.

 

[Mac173]

very educational read NJmuscle.

Yes. Good find.

 

[burnthiscorpse]

Yep, when I take it the pain seems to go away and when I stop a couple of weeks later there is the pain!
I really like that post NJ I will change my base around a little more.

I totally agree bro. It made me re-think my base. I think I wanna try some EQ next time. I would love to try a hefty dose of var but I dont like the way people say it whacks out your lipids. Test doesnt affect me at all. My blood work is beautiful while on 3-600mg/wk. Even if nothing else than gettin the collagen synthesis effects of the EQ. EQ is cheap, why not.

 

[needtogetaas]

winny can effect joints and so can deca. Its way to late for me to go digging for it all.

 

[Barch]

I think that post that njmuscleguy posted is the kind of thing that Nelson was talking about. That thing has been cut and pasted for years now, and I still haven't seen anyone provide an original source for it, or any source studies. So for all we know, I could have written it, guesstimated the numbers, and everyone takes it as the gospel. A while back, I used to refer to it, but then I realized that there is really no background info on it... So, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[ConanX]

Not sure the science...

All I know is that Winny made my shoulders creak like crazy. Deca made my lifts feel smooth.

My friend wouldn't use Winny anymore because it was so harsh on his shoulder and elbow joints.

 

[Ezekiel]

Nelson:

Here is a writeup that I seen on practically every bodybuilding / AAS forum out there... in exactly the same format, so obviously it's been recycled many, many times... I don't really have time at the moment, but I couldn't readily find a RELIABLE source (e.g. Pub Med) to verify it any of the information or claims... but here you go:



While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of anabolic steroids which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use anabolic steroids like sus, testosterone cypionate, or testosterone enanthate.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , Anavar, or Primobolan - methenolone - as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , anavar and Primobolan - methenolone - will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - .

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies doenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other anabolic steroids, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle Clomid use. Here they are:

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - : 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, human growth hormone - somatropin - at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Primobolan - methenolone - , anavar, and Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain anabolic steroids, the decision is up to you.

who wrote this article? Are then any others like it supporting its claims?

 

[C.K.]

Is there anything else that works as well as deca for joint lubrication that doesnt sacrifice your penor?

 

[burnthiscorpse]

Is there anything else that works as well as deca for joint lubrication that doesnt sacrifice your penor?

REad the article bro. EQ, Anavar, Primo. Even Anadrol will flood your joints with sinovial fluid.

 

[njmuscleguy]

I think that post that njmuscleguy posted is the kind of thing that Nelson was talking about. That thing has been cut and pasted for years now, and I still haven't seen anyone provide an original source for it, or any source studies. So for all we know, I could have written it, guesstimated the numbers, and everyone takes it as the gospel. A while back, I used to refer to it, but then I realized that there is really no background info on it... So, take it with a grain of salt.

that's why I prefaced it the way I did... I didn't do a full search (yet) for any supporting medical / scientific research... but, it makes you think... at least anecdotally, most deca users swear that their joints feel better when they're on and then they feel like crap when they're off... same thing goes for Winny (but in reverse)... as far as dosages, percentages, etc... I couldn't tell you... I just thought it was interesting that when I ran a search on "collagen synthesis" and "deca", this article popped up on practically every major forum and AAS site

 

[C.K.]

REad the article bro. EQ, Anavar, Primo. Even Anadrol will flood your joints with sinovial fluid.

Good stuff looks like ill add a lil EQ thanks

 

[needtogetaas]

Ok looking around We can see much evidence that sex hormones ie estrogen,test,and progesterone DO HAVE AN EFFECT ON
1.protein and collagen content in joints
2.decrease bone mineral density (low estrogen and low progesterone causes this)
3.Collagen is improved by addition of estrogen and progesterone
4.DHT administration has been found to decrease estrogen levels through a variety of mechanisms
5.DHT directly inhibits estrogenic activity on tissues, either by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen receptor binding.
6.DHT also has a negative effect on Progesterone biosynthesis in cells
7.Lowering estrogen will reduce water retention, but it will also limit your body's ability to produce estrogen-mediated anti-inflammatory reactions.
8.androgen have documented effects on corticosteroids, which have documented effects on bone and joint pain.
9.Progesterone, like testosterone, both stimulates humoral immunity (the TH2) and suppresses cellular immunity (TH1 response). which means, progesterone has anti-inflammatory action
10. deca,tren,npp, stimulate progesterone HMMMMMMMM
11. winny,masterone,proveron,beastdrol are all dht's HMMMMMM

So I will say it load and proud
sex hormones ie estrogen,test,and progesterone DO HAVE AN EFFECT ON BONES AND JOINT IN MANY WAYS


And of course we know
test,deca,winny,masterone what ever all have effects on sex hormones ie test,estrogen,progesterone

 

[Barch]

that's why I prefaced it the way I did... I didn't do a full search (yet) for any supporting medical / scientific research... but, it makes you think... at least anecdotally, most deca users swear that their joints feel better when they're on and then they feel like crap when they're off... same thing goes for Winny (but in reverse)... as far as dosages, percentages, etc... I couldn't tell you... I just thought it was interesting that when I ran a search on "collagen synthesis" and "deca", this article popped up on practically every major forum and AAS site

Yeah, it wasn't a dig on you, it just kind of scares me how this one post has gotten posted over and over and people use it as a references for cycles when we don't know where it came from, who wrote it, what the substantiating evidence is (if any), etc. Even on this thread we already have people thinking about changing cycles due to the info in that post...

I think we all should try to be more informed consumers, not just taking some anonymous post as the gospel. Just kind of freaks me out.

I should add that I, too, read that post a while back and took it as fact. Then someone on one of the BBs brought up the fact that there is no supporting information for any of the claims. Afterall, they came up with exact percentages and numbers, so you'd think there was some studies providing that information...

 

[njmuscleguy]

Well, the same can be said for MOST advice dispensed on any given AAS site...alot of it is repeated information and no one really knows where it originated from...and most people don't take the time to verify it with say, pub med, etc.

Yeah, it wasn't a dig on you, it just kind of scares me how this one post has gotten posted over and over and people use it as a references for cycles when we don't know where it came from, who wrote it, what the substantiating evidence is (if any), etc. Even on this thread we already have people thinking about changing cycles due to the info in that post...

I think we all should try to be more informed consumers, not just taking some anonymous post as the gospel. Just kind of freaks me out.

I should add that I, too, read that post a while back and took it as fact. Then someone on one of the BBs brought up the fact that there is no supporting information for any of the claims. Afterall, they came up with exact percentages and numbers, so you'd think there was some studies providing that information...

 

[mr.nitro]

I would actually like to know if deca is masking the pain or actually repairing the joints somehow????


How do your joints feel when you stop taking the deca? If it was really healing joints they should continue to feel great when use stops.

unfourtunitly I belive its just masking the pain. after coming off deca my elbows hurt pretty bad.

 

[Barch]

Well, the same can be said for MOST advice dispensed on any given AAS site...alot of it is repeated information and no one really knows where it originated from...and most people don't take the time to verify it with say, pub med, etc.

True, but usually when something is posted as a whole over and over, you can usually at least find out who wrote it. The thing is that a lot of people, including myself have tried to verify it on Pubmed and other sources to see if there were any studies that might support this, but I still haven't seen any. Honestly, if it were shown to be factual, it would be great, since it would be a nice guideline for us all to use...

 

[gstacker]

look what i found! a old thread about this article and the original author was called out on it and never backed up his claims..... it would be a good idea to research it for yourself to see where this author got the info.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...-help-ligaments-tendon-building-478994-2.html

 

[jacshelb]

unfourtunitly I belive its just masking the pain. after coming off deca my elbows hurt pretty bad.

Well, my guess is that it's because the collagen building and other effects are pretty slight for the most part. And, it's the water weight that's keeping the joints lubed-i.e. the most noticeable effect. When deca is gone, so is the water/benefit.

 

[ConanX]

Comparing my cycle of...

Test E 250mg + Eq 400mg + Winny 60mg e/d
vs
Test E 300mg + Tren 100mg e/d + Anavar 60mg e/d

When I was on the Winny my joints were creaking badly and I often had to stop shoulder and chest workouts because I was worried about damage.
With this cycle, the joints feel much smoother, just the heavier weights put a lot of stress on the joints but they definitely are not as dry.

 

[C.K.]

Comparing my cycle of...

Test E 250mg + Eq 400mg + Winny 60mg e/d
vs
Test E 300mg + Tren 100mg e/d + Anavar 60mg e/d

When I was on the Winny my joints were creaking badly and I often had to stop shoulder and chest workouts because I was worried about damage.
With this cycle, the joints feel much smoother, just the heavier weights put a lot of stress on the joints but they definitely are not as dry.

I had that problem when i started my cycle i didnt even dare do shoulder presses but i've been taking mega doses of glucosamine and the problem is fucking gone!

 

[ALIN]

We have used WINSTROL on and off for years. Ive never had a singel joint related issue with DECA nor have I heard any real personal complaints from those I train.

 

[JLA]

Nelson:

Here is a writeup that I seen on practically every bodybuilding / AAS forum out there... in exactly the same format, so obviously it's been recycled many, many times... I don't really have time at the moment, but I couldn't readily find a RELIABLE source (e.g. Pub Med) to verify it any of the information or claims... but here you go:



While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of anabolic steroids which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use anabolic steroids like sus, testosterone cypionate, or testosterone enanthate.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , Anavar, or Primobolan - methenolone - as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , anavar and Primobolan - methenolone - will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - .

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies doenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other anabolic steroids, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle Clomid use. Here they are:

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - : 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, human growth hormone - somatropin - at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Primobolan - methenolone - , anavar, and Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain anabolic steroids, the decision is up to you.

Awesome...I'd take EQ over Deca anytime anyway...

Also, I may be wrong (I love your answers with actual facts rather than guesses - which I am even guilty of)......but I seem to have seen even higher percentages before on HGH.

No offense to bodybuilders, but they might be able to get by with this better if lifting lighter, but if you are a powerlifter, strongman, or low-rep bodybuilder, these guys need to keep joint recovery in mind. You can build and heal muscle much more quickly than a joint. You may even find you can never heal it....Bo Jackson had a condition that made collegen synthesis in his hips (maybe elsewhere too) virtually nothing, causing his massive hip injury.

 

[lookinfit75]

I am not sure about the science either but I do know that from my own experience, Winny KILLS my elbows and shoulders and I can, with a lot of certatinty say that my chronic shoulder issues are from my first cycle which was a Winny only cycle (fist cycle and a total noob fuck up I know, but I didn't have this forum or any of the textbooks I have now for that matter back then). I also know that Deca has always soothed my joints and actually helped rehab my left shoulder problem. Of course I just messed it up again while using Winny on the last blast.
I love the look and super agressiveness that Winny gives me but I'll be damned if I'll let it ruin my quality of life so no more Winny for me.

 

[thelion2005]

I never understood the "dry joint" complaint that people have with winny. Personally, I think it's one of these parroted myths that people seem to believe after a while -- just like deca is "good" for the joints. There is no evidence of either, other than the perpetuated rumor. Someone gets a little sore while using Winny and it's like "Oh, I have "dry" joints!" What the fuck are "dry" joints anyway? Does winny decrease collagen? I can see that it blocks estrogen to a degree and THAT may have an effect, but I never hear anyone complaining about dry joints from a-dex or aromasan or nolvadex.

Sometimes people will recommend deca to counteract the affect of deca yet I've never seen any studies on this -- only message board prattle. If anyone has any real evidence of deca repairing joints, please post it up. Then again, I've seen people make these claims about EQ, and there isn;t a single legitimate study on the effects of EQ on any human being. It's amazing the bullshit that manages to flourish.

Actually there is one steroid that has shown the ability to increase collegan synthesis and has even been used to treat such conditions. It's called....WINSTROL. Here ya go: Journal of Investigative Dermatology - Stimulation of Collagen Synthesis by the Anabolic Steroid Stanozolol

Who knows -- maybe those "aching joints" are actually joints that are being repaired.

Was on winny for 8 weeks with no joint problems. Sore butt from all those injections.

 

[Nomadic Dreamer]

My joints felt horrible while taking winny...hips, knees, elbows...lots of small injuries too.

I feel a ton better since switching to anavar and using EQ. I don't need a scientific study to corroborate what my body is telling me.