Why? Why? Why?

[Nelson Montana]

Why...

...is it that some people complain of nasty side effects and then instead of cutting back the dosage the first question is to ask what drug will counteract the sides?

Why...

Do some people insist on doing things their way and then complain about the results? "BUT I DON'T HAVE TIME TO EAT. HOW ELSE CAN I GROW?" Or, "I GOT SICK ON DNP BUT I HAVEN"T GOT THE DISCIPLINE TO DIET." I'll say it now -- if you if you have so little discipline that you need to use life threatening substances to get results that millions of others have achieved with hard work, quit now and do yourself and everyone else a favor.

Why...

Do some people constantly ask if they can do this or do that or just use one substance or stack another two together, blah , blah, blah. Folks you can do whatever you want. No one knows what works for YOU. Process with caution and enjoy the ride.

Why...

Do some people choose not to use effective supps, and in some cases put them down without ever trying them, IN SPITE of good reviews? THAT, I just don't get. And I'm the first guy to speak out against bullshit supplements.


Why...

Do people not research? I'd think if you were about to take a leap like this you'd be interested in knowing as much as possible. That means more than going on a board and asking one or two questions before sticking a foreign substance into your bloodstream.

Why...

Do some people still use Nolva? I guarantee 99% of the time it does nothing but lessen gains. Nolva was all there was to combat gyno at one point. There are FAR better drugs that do what it does with less sides. For PCT, frankly, I think it blows.

Why...

Do some people write out their training routine? It doesn't matter what exercises you do or how many sets or reps or even the weight. Muscles don't know numbers, they only know stress. And that can not be determined by anyone or anything except YOUR muscles.

Why...

Do some people come off of 21 weeks cycles? Folks, if you do just a couple of 21 week cycles, you'll be permanently suppressed, most likely for good. What the fuck do you think these drugs are? A joke? Might as well stay on.

Why...

Do some people insist all you need is food to grow? Of course food is number one but this ain't 1963 for chrissakes. There's no way you can get the quality protein without the extra cals that you can get with a good modern protein supp. And in the case of super plasma serum (gotta give a shameless plug for BIG BLAST here) the benefits are so tremendous it's just stupid not to take advantage of it.

Why...

... aren't there more women willing to have menage' a trois? (Oops, did I say that out loud? Wrong forum). But seriously. Why not? I mean, everybody wins! But I digress.

Why...

...is it that I'm writing on the board on Memorial Day when I can be eating BBQ and getting a tan? Can't help it. Gotta stay in touch with the community. But I'm out for now. Everybody have a good one.

 

[theblondebomber]

that was great.and yea its memorial day and I CANT eat bbq.wheres my chicken breast and broccoli?uuuggghhh

 

[02gixxersix]

Why...

Do people not research? I'd think if you were about to take a leap like this you'd be interested in knowing as much as possible. That means more than going on a board and asking one or two questions before sticking a foreign substance into your bloodstream.

This is the biggest one for me. Even back in my rec drug/party days I did tons of research before putting anything into my body. There are way too many people who come on here three weeks into a cycle and then start asking questions like, "how do I convert mg to ml". A little research will go a long way. Great post. +1 on the 3some thing as well.

 

[navigatorrs]

Well said!!!

 

[Trendsetter21]

I to have asked myself these questions. Some people really think Anabolic steroids is a fast quick fix. Its not a magic pill. It shouldn't be abused. If you are going to use them you have to change your lifestyle. Most people don't get that.

 

[biggernu]

lmao at the kid that said he was going to take aas and sit back and grow. haha

 

[needtogetaas]

Why...

...is it that some people complain of nasty side effects and then instead of cutting back the dosage the first question is to ask what drug will counteract the sides?

Why...

Do some people insist on doing things their way and then complain about the results? "BUT I DON'T HAVE TIME TO EAT. HOW ELSE CAN I GROW?" Or, "I GOT SICK ON DNP BUT I HAVEN"T GOT THE DISCIPLINE TO DIET." I'll say it now -- if you if you have so little discipline that you need to use life threatening substances to get results that millions of others have achieved with hard work, quit now and do yourself and everyone else a favor.

Why...

Do some people constantly ask if they can do this or do that or just use one substance or stack another two together, blah , blah, blah. Folks you can do whatever you want. No one knows what works for YOU. Process with caution and enjoy the ride.

Why...

Do some people choose not to use effective supps, and in some cases put them down without ever trying them, IN SPITE of good reviews? THAT, I just don't get. And I'm the first guy to speak out against bullshit supplements.


Why...

Do people not research? I'd think if you were about to take a leap like this you'd be interested in knowing as much as possible. That means more than going on a board and asking one or two questions before sticking a foreign substance into your bloodstream.

Why...

Do some people still use Nolva? I guarantee 99% of the time it does nothing but lessen gains. Nolva was all there was to combat gyno at one point. There are FAR better drugs that do what it does with less sides. For PCT, frankly, I think it blows.

Why...

Do some people write out their training routine? It doesn't matter what exercises you do or how many sets or reps or even the weight. Muscles don't know numbers, they only know stress. And that can not be determined by anyone or anything except YOUR muscles.

Why...

Do some people come off of 21 weeks cycles? Folks, if you do just a couple of 21 week cycles, you'll be permanently suppressed, most likely for good. What the fuck do you think these drugs are? A joke? Might as well stay on.

Why...

Do some people insist all you need is food to grow? Of course food in number one but this ain't 1963 for chrissakes. There's no way you can get the quality protein without the extra cals that you can get with a good modern protein supp. And in the case of super plasma serum (gotta give a shameless plug for BIG BLAST here) the benefits are so tremendous it's just stupid not to take advantage of it.

Why...

... aren't there more women willing to have menage' a trois? (Oops, did I say that out loud? Wrong forum). But seriously. Why not? I mean, everybody wins! But I digress.

Why...

...is it that I'm writing on the board on Memorial Day when I can be eating BBQ and getting a tan? Can't help it. Gotta stay in touch with the community. But I'm out for now. Everybody have a good one.

Hard core bro. I am going to a cook out in a bit but wanted to check in to. Nice thread btw.

 

[timtim]

Why...

Do some people still use Nolva? I guarantee 99% of the time it does nothing but lessen gains. Nolva was all there was to combat gyno at one point. There are FAR better drugs that do what it does with less sides. For PCT, frankly, I think it blows.

Why...

Do some people write out their training routine? It doesn't matter what exercises you do or how many sets or reps or even the weight. Muscles don't know numbers, they only know stress. And that can not be determined by anyone or anything except YOUR muscles.

Why...

Do some people come off of 21 weeks cycles? Folks, if you do just a couple of 21 week cycles, you'll be permanently suppressed, most likely for good. What the fuck do you think these drugs are? A joke? Might as well stay on.

the effectiveness and desire to use nolva is an individual one. you never come off so how would you know how effective it is for pct?

people write out training routines for progress. tons of real strength gurus stand by it and have proven its effectiveness. you have no point.

21 week cycles cause permanent sterility? prove it. wheres the science to back that claim up?

 

[Tatyana]

Nelson didn't say sterility timtim, he said if you are doing a couple of 21 week cycles you had might as well stay on due to suppression.



Nelson, I you.


Why?

Because people are lazy and really stupid at times.

That's why.

 

[needtogetaas]

lmao at the kid that said he was going to take aas and sit back and grow. haha

lmao I love that shit.

 

[Nelson Montana]

the effectiveness and desire to use nolva is an individual one. you never come off so how would you know how effective it is for pct?

......................................


BRO, DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK I'VE NEVER DONE A PCT???


...........................................................

people write out training routines for progress. tons of real strength gurus stand by it and have proven its effectiveness. you have no point.

............................................

YOU HAVE NO CLUE. I WAS REFERRING TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HOW GOOD A ROUTINE IS BY STATING THEIR NUMBERS.


.............................................................

21 week cycles cause permanent sterility? prove it. wheres the science to back that claim up?
..................................

OH NO, HERE WE GO. DON'T ASK ME TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK FOR YOU. I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT BRO. AND I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT STERILITY. YOU KINDA SEE THINGS THE WAY YOU WANT TO SEE THEM, DON'T YOU? THEN YOU'RE SO EAGER TO DISAGREE YOU DON'T EVEN GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT. READ MORE. WRITE LESS.

................................

..

 

[timtim]

when was the last time you did a pct? adex, nolva, and clomid still works great for me and alot of others i know. its about the right dosages for the right period of time for many people.


heres what you wrote:
Do some people write out their training routine? It doesn't matter what exercises you do or how many sets or reps or even the weight. Muscles don't know numbers, they only know stress. And that can not be determined by anyone or anything except YOUR muscles.

i have a serious clue about real training with recording sets, reps, and weights and the reasons for it. why dont you clearly state what you mean? a statement like the one you posted can be understood in many ways. so you being unable to clearly explain what you mean reflects on me not having a clue? doubt it.


permanent supression does not equate with sterility? a permanently shut down hpta doesnt result in sterility? then why do we fear a permanently shut down hpta? if it doesnt effect sterility we can continue to supplement exogenously with test and make babies and have no fears.

do my own research? i dont make false assumptions and post them on a messageboard. show proof or dont make statements like permanent shutdown with 21 week cycles. statements like that require proof.

im not eager to disagree. i just find it funny that you consistently make posts with your opinions and then you dont back these opinions up with facts and tell others to do research you claim to know.

 

[Trendsetter21]

when was the last time you did a pct? adex, nolva, and clomid still works great for me and alot of others i know. its about the right dosages for the right period of time for many people.

I think its a personnel preference here, nolva might work better for some people than others, even though we are all humans people react to different compounds differently

heres what you wrote:
Do some people write out their training routine? It doesn't matter what exercises you do or how many sets or reps or even the weight. Muscles don't know numbers, they only know stress. And that can not be determined by anyone or anything except YOUR muscles.


I have a serious clue about real training with recording sets, reps, and weights and the reasons for it. why dont you clearly state what you mean? a statement like the one you posted can be understood in many ways. so you being unable to clearly explain what you mean reflects on me not having a clue? doubt it.

I think he means that writing out a number of reps is pointless, which it is. You should go to failure, setting a number will make you more prone to hitting that number and stopping, push through and do as many as you can, thats the number you should reach not one on paper. I agree with his statement 100%. Instead of challenging what he said why not ask for more of an explanation?

permanent supression does not equate with sterility? a permanently shut down hpta doesnt result in sterility? then why do we fear a permanently shut down hpta? if it doesnt effect sterility we can continue to supplement exogenously with test and make babies and have no fears.

do my own research? i dont make false assumptions and post them on a messageboard. show proof or dont make statements like permanent shutdown with 21 week cycles. statements like that require proof.

im not eager to disagree. i just find it funny that you consistently make posts with your opinions and then you dont back these opinions up with facts and tell others to do research you claim to know.

You should probably give him time to respond with his proof rather than saying he doesn't back any of this up. As for the sterility and stuff....I don't know I'd have to do my own research about that so I can't comment on it. I just think you are approaching challenging him in the wrong way. Its better to get answers when asking nice questions then basically calling someone a liar and trying to call them out. I see it too many time on the board were people just post this is bs blah blah blah instead of posting well why do you think this? Do you have any research or proof to that you can show us? I'm pretty sure that would go over a lot better.

 

[Nelson Montana]

when was the last time you did a pct? adex, nolva, and clomid still works great for me and alot of others i know. its about the right dosages for the right period of time for many people.


heres what you wrote:
Do some people write out their training routine? It doesn't matter what exercises you do or how many sets or reps or even the weight. Muscles don't know numbers, they only know stress. And that can not be determined by anyone or anything except YOUR muscles.

i have a serious clue about real training with recording sets, reps, and weights and the reasons for it. why dont you clearly state what you mean? a statement like the one you posted can be understood in many ways. so you being unable to clearly explain what you mean reflects on me not having a clue? doubt it.


permanent supression does not equate with sterility? a permanently shut down hpta doesnt result in sterility? then why do we fear a permanently shut down hpta? if it doesnt effect sterility we can continue to supplement exogenously with test and make babies and have no fears.

do my own research? i dont make false assumptions and post them on a messageboard. show proof or dont make statements like permanent shutdown with 21 week cycles. statements like that require proof.

im not eager to disagree. i just find it funny that you consistently make posts with your opinions and then you dont back these opinions up with facts and tell others to do research you claim to know.

i was going to address each of these points, but nah, not worth it. You're misquoting me and I'm not in the mood to correct you. Do whatever you want.

 

[nickster#1]

Why...

...is it that some people complain of nasty side effects and then instead of cutting back the dosage the first question is to ask what drug will counteract the sides?

Why...

Do some people insist on doing things their way and then complain about the results? "BUT I DON'T HAVE TIME TO EAT. HOW ELSE CAN I GROW?" Or, "I GOT SICK ON DNP BUT I HAVEN"T GOT THE DISCIPLINE TO DIET." I'll say it now -- if you if you have so little discipline that you need to use life threatening substances to get results that millions of others have achieved with hard work, quit now and do yourself and everyone else a favor.

Why...

Do some people constantly ask if they can do this or do that or just use one substance or stack another two together, blah , blah, blah. Folks you can do whatever you want. No one knows what works for YOU. Process with caution and enjoy the ride.

UMMM, I think proceed would be a better word than process..........sorry, I am a stickler for sentence structure and spelling. Great thread though, but it sounds like your having a bad day.........need a hug bro?????????

Why...

Do some people choose not to use effective supps, and in some cases put them down without ever trying them, IN SPITE of good reviews? THAT, I just don't get. And I'm the first guy to speak out against bullshit supplements.


Why...

Do people not research? I'd think if you were about to take a leap like this you'd be interested in knowing as much as possible. That means more than going on a board and asking one or two questions before sticking a foreign substance into your bloodstream.

Why...

Do some people still use Nolva? I guarantee 99% of the time it does nothing but lessen gains. Nolva was all there was to combat gyno at one point. There are FAR better drugs that do what it does with less sides. For PCT, frankly, I think it blows.

Why...

Do some people write out their training routine? It doesn't matter what exercises you do or how many sets or reps or even the weight. Muscles don't know numbers, they only know stress. And that can not be determined by anyone or anything except YOUR muscles.

Why...

Do some people come off of 21 weeks cycles? Folks, if you do just a couple of 21 week cycles, you'll be permanently suppressed, most likely for good. What the fuck do you think these drugs are? A joke? Might as well stay on.

Why...

Do some people insist all you need is food to grow? Of course food is number one but this ain't 1963 for chrissakes. There's no way you can get the quality protein without the extra cals that you can get with a good modern protein supp. And in the case of super plasma serum (gotta give a shameless plug for BIG BLAST here) the benefits are so tremendous it's just stupid not to take advantage of it.

Why...

... aren't there more women willing to have menage' a trois? (Oops, did I say that out loud? Wrong forum). But seriously. Why not? I mean, everybody wins! But I digress.

Why...

...is it that I'm writing on the board on Memorial Day when I can be eating BBQ and getting a tan? Can't help it. Gotta stay in touch with the community. But I'm out for now. Everybody have a good one.

And as to the use of nolva, it has always treated me better than anything else for keeping the estrogen rebound to a minimum while doing a test cycle, and aids in my always having speedy recoveries. And it HAS been proven that nolvadex is a great preventative measure for gyno durring a cycle, and sure, a slight loss in gains, but worth the peace of mind to me. Prevention is always better than cure.

 

[Nelson Montana]

You're busting me for one typo? Ugh.

My day is going fine.

As for Nolva, there's no way of knowing if you've done a proper PCT without it. As with clomid, there are some people who respond well but I still maintain it isn't necessary most of the time and is overused and downright disastrous to many.

Yes, it does prevent gyno, but I believe gyno is easily avoided by other means. That's the point. It doesn't provide much peace of mind to those who lose their dick from using it, or suffer the rebound effect after cessation of use. I maintain, it's an outdated drug.

 

[sensational]

Good thread,

Sums up the frustrations of a board.

 

[eddymerckx]

"Do some people come off of 21 weeks cycles? Folks, if you do just a couple of 21 week cycles, you'll be permanently suppressed, most likely for good. What the fuck do you think these drugs are? A joke? Might as well stay on."

21 week cycles cause permanent sterility? prove it. wheres the science to back that claim up?."

permanent supression does not equate with sterility? a permanently shut down hpta doesnt result in sterility? then why do we fear a permanently shut down hpta? if it doesnt effect sterility we can continue to supplement exogenously with test and make babies and have no fears.

do my own research? i dont make false assumptions and post them on a messageboard. show proof or dont make statements like permanent shutdown with 21 week cycles. statements like that require proof."

read what he wrote---he did not say shut down for good, he said permanently suppressed if you do not understand the difference, ask, but do not assume they are synonymous b/c you have just undercut every aspect of your statement.

Oh, and here is the research to back up nelson's statement,

Urhausen, A., Torsten, A., & Wilfried, K. (2003). Reversibility of the effects on blood cells, lipids, liver function and hormones in former anabolic-androgenic steroid abusers. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 84(2-3), 369-375. van Breda, E., Keizer, H. A., Kuipers, H., & Wolffenbuttel, B. H. (2003). Androgenic anabolic steroid use and severe hypothalamic-pituitary dysfunction: a case study. Int J Sports Med, 24(3), 195

serum parameters in 15 AAS users. The mean time after steroid cessation was 43 months with the minimum length of time 1 year and the maximum 10 years in the study. The average amount of medication used was a mean of 700 milligrams for 26 weeks, half a year, for 9 years. The long-term side-effects of anabolic steroid use were demonstrated to be most pronounced on the HPTA. It was found A13/15 ex-AAS users were found in the lower 20 percent of the normal reference range for testosterone, 2/15 ex-AAS users were found below the normal range with values of 6.6 and 9.0 nanomoles per liter. vanBreda et al. (2003) presents a case study in a 37y male who after AAS cessation had persistent HPTA dysfunction. Restoration of HPTA dysfunction was achieved with the use of LH-RH


Informative discussion is encouraged on this site—but you must understand what someone is saying—esp. when their statement uses very specific terminology. When someone with the creds of Nelson, for example, make a statement that you disagree with, it is on you to prove him wrong because he has earned the presumption that what he says has solid basis.

 

[timtim]

read what he wrote---he did not say shut down for good, he said permanently suppressed if you do not understand the difference, ask, but do not assume they are synonymous b/c you have just undercut every aspect of your statement.

Oh, and here is the research to back up nelson's statement,

Urhausen, A., Torsten, A., & Wilfried, K. (2003). Reversibility of the effects on blood cells, lipids, liver function and hormones in former anabolic-androgenic steroid abusers. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 84(2-3), 369-375. van Breda, E., Keizer, H. A., Kuipers, H., & Wolffenbuttel, B. H. (2003). Androgenic anabolic steroid use and severe hypothalamic-pituitary dysfunction: a case study. Int J Sports Med, 24(3), 195

serum parameters in 15 AAS users. The mean time after steroid cessation was 43 months with the minimum length of time 1 year and the maximum 10 years in the study. The average amount of medication used was a mean of 700 milligrams for 26 weeks, half a year, for 9 years. The long-term side-effects of anabolic steroid use were demonstrated to be most pronounced on the HPTA. It was found A13/15 ex-AAS users were found in the lower 20 percent of the normal reference range for testosterone, 2/15 ex-AAS users were found below the normal range with values of 6.6 and 9.0 nanomoles per liter. vanBreda et al. (2003) presents a case study in a 37y male who after AAS cessation had persistent HPTA dysfunction. Restoration of HPTA dysfunction was achieved with the use of LH-RH


Informative discussion is encouraged on this site—but you must understand what someone is saying—esp. when their statement uses very specific terminology. When someone with the creds of Nelson, for example, make a statement that you disagree with, it is on you to prove him wrong because he has earned the presumption that what he says has solid basis.

sure.

i like this site and respect the members here but its pretty silly that certain people cant be disagreed with and its on other members to research what these people say. that really makes no sense but i will follow the rules. im fine with that.

 

[nickster#1]

You're busting me for one typo? Ugh.

Couldnt resist brutha...............

My day is going fine.

No Hug????????

As for Nolva, there's no way of knowing if you've done a proper PCT without it. As with clomid, there are some people who respond well but I still maintain it isn't necessary most of the time and is overused and downright disastrous to many.

Yes, it does prevent gyno, but I believe gyno is easily avoided by other means. That's the point. It doesn't provide much peace of mind to those who lose their dick from using it, or suffer the rebound effect after cessation of use. I maintain, it's an outdated drug.

In regards to your thoughts on nolva.................
I agree to disagree.................

OG signin out for the moment...................

 

[eddymerckx]

sure.

i like this site and respect the members here but its pretty silly that certain people cant be disagreed with and its on other members to research what these people say. that really makes no sense but i will follow the rules. im fine with that.

i did not mean they cannot disagree with them, but if you have something to back-up your argument it is better for everyone (we want people to research and learn in general)---

in the above example, we may have helped people understand that there is a difference in supression v. shut down--and that is good for everyone.

 

[eddymerckx]

Why...

Do some people still use Nolva? I guarantee 99% of the time it does nothing but lessen gains. Nolva was all there was to combat gyno at one point. There are FAR better drugs that do what it does with less sides. For PCT, frankly, I think it blows.

In regards to your thoughts on nolva.................
I agree to disagree.................

OG signin out for the moment...................

I know why nelson thinks the way he does--he has stated his reasons on many occasions---so are you just voting to disagree or do you have somthing substantive to say?

With 18 posts, you are either a noob and therefore you vote is worthless or (and having read your other posts i suspect) you are a vet who just joined the board and your reasoning for "agree to disagree" is worth hearing, so expand, please.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I know why nelson thinks the way he does--he has stated his reasons on many occasions---so are you just voting to disagree or do you have somthing substantive to say?

With 18 posts, you are either a noob and therefore you vote is worthless or (and having read your other posts i suspect) you are a vet who just joined the board and your reasoning for "agree to disagree" is worth hearing, so expand, please.

Eddy, always the voice of reason.

Sure, disagreeing is fine, but yeah, there should be some basis behind it besides just disagreeing.

There are always exceptions to any tenet and providing a different insight helps everyone. Just dismissing a statement with which you disagree helps no one.

Not trying to be confrontational or censoring. Just sayin.'

 

[-Ariel-]

Man this board is humbling... I definitely am one who writes down the training log... but its too much fun to watch nelson stentoriously disarm those who question his logic..
For newbies like me its educational, albeit a bit humbling...

 

[mr.nitro]

Why...

Do some people come off of 21 weeks cycles? Folks, if you do just a couple of 21 week cycles, you'll be permanently suppressed, most likely for good. What the fuck do you think these drugs are? A joke? Might as well stay on.

cholesterol for one, I know my levels are higher when on. I mean I never do come off anyway, but I do drop down to low dose test between cycles.

 

[Nelson Montana]

cholesterol for one, I know my levels are higher when on. I mean I never do come off anyway, but I do drop down to low dose test between cycles.

Well, of course you can't juice balls to the walls full time but for the cholesterol use Primrose oil, Policosanol, apple pectin and all the olive oil you can take in.

 

[Harleymarleybone]

Nelson didn't say sterility timtim, he said if you are doing a couple of 21 week cycles you had might as well stay on due to suppression.



Nelson, I you.


Why?

Because people are lazy and really stupid at times.

That's why.

Evidence (not just anectdotal) that a 21 week cycle will permanently suppress you?

 

[Harleymarleybone]

Man this board is humbling... I definitely am one who writes down the training log... but its too much fun to watch nelson stentoriously disarm those who question his logic..
For newbies like me its educational, albeit a bit humbling...

I'd be happy to read the log of someone who uses the word "stentoriousy"

 

[DBBT]

Well, of course you can't juice balls to the walls full time but for the cholesterol use Primrose oil, Policosanol, apple pectin and all the olive oil you can take in.

6-7 Tbsp. per day here

 

[eddymerckx]

Evidence (not just anectdotal) that a 21 week cycle will permanently suppress you?

already answered in the thread but for you,

Urhausen, A., Torsten, A., & Wilfried, K. (2003). Reversibility of the effects on blood cells, lipids, liver function and hormones in former anabolic-androgenic steroid abusers. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 84(2-3), 369-375. van Breda, E., Keizer, H. A., Kuipers, H., & Wolffenbuttel, B. H. (2003). Androgenic anabolic steroid use and severe hypothalamic-pituitary dysfunction: a case study. Int J Sports Med, 24(3), 195

serum parameters in 15 AAS users. The mean time after steroid cessation was 43 months with the minimum length of time 1 year and the maximum 10 years in the study. The average amount of medication used was a mean of 700 milligrams for 26 weeks, half a year, for 9 years. The long-term side-effects of anabolic steroid use were demonstrated to be most pronounced on the HPTA. It was found A13/15 ex-AAS users were found in the lower 20 percent of the normal reference range for testosterone, 2/15 ex-AAS users were found below the normal range with values of 6.6 and 9.0 nanomoles per liter. vanBreda et al. (2003) presents a case study in a 37y male who after AAS cessation had persistent HPTA dysfunction. Restoration of HPTA dysfunction was achieved with the use of LH-RH

 

[Harleymarleybone]

already answered in the thread but for you,

Urhausen, A., Torsten, A., & Wilfried, K. (2003). Reversibility of the effects on blood cells, lipids, liver function and hormones in former anabolic-androgenic steroid abusers. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 84(2-3), 369-375. van Breda, E., Keizer, H. A., Kuipers, H., & Wolffenbuttel, B. H. (2003). Androgenic anabolic steroid use and severe hypothalamic-pituitary dysfunction: a case study. Int J Sports Med, 24(3), 195

serum parameters in 15 AAS users. The mean time after steroid cessation was 43 months with the minimum length of time 1 year and the maximum 10 years in the study. The average amount of medication used was a mean of 700 milligrams for 26 weeks, half a year, for 9 years. The long-term side-effects of anabolic steroid use were demonstrated to be most pronounced on the HPTA. It was found A13/15 ex-AAS users were found in the lower 20 percent of the normal reference range for testosterone, 2/15 ex-AAS users were found below the normal range with values of 6.6 and 9.0 nanomoles per liter. vanBreda et al. (2003) presents a case study in a 37y male who after AAS cessation had persistent HPTA dysfunction. Restoration of HPTA dysfunction was achieved with the use of LH-RH

Interesting, but the average user in this study ran 26 week cycles for nine years. Long term suppression over this amount of time does not surprise me. But there is no evidence here that "a couple" (21-26 weeks) leads to permanent suppression, especially with proper PCT. Interesting that in the last case HPTA restoration was achieved through LH -RH. I suspect in the other cases, proper PCT was not used.

Perhaps others who have run a long cycle or two, and used proper PCT (and did bloodwork etc.) can contribute their experiences.

 

[bicepts101]

lol wow what has happened here

 

[Nelson Montana]

Interesting, but the average user in this study ran 26 week cycles for nine years. Long term suppression over this amount of time does not surprise me. But there is no evidence here that "a couple" (21-26 weeks) leads to permanent suppression, especially with proper PCT. Interesting that in the last case HPTA restoration was achieved through LH -RH. I suspect in the other cases, proper PCT was not used.

Perhaps others who have run a long cycle or two, and used proper PCT (and did bloodwork etc.) can contribute their experiences.

That's because any study needs a certain guideline to analyze the results. In other words, if you want to test the toxicity of something you don't give a single dosage now and then, you use a more extreme dosaging to study the effect.

Evidence of people becoming suppressed from just a few cycles is more anecdotal but it does happen and often and don't kid yourself, there are thousands of cases. Some, right here on EF.

And people have GOT to stop thinking that PCT is a miracle cure. THERE ISN'T A SINGLE COMPOUND THAT GUARANTEES RESTORATION OF THE HPTA FUNCTION. A proper PCT simply helps the body recover on its own faster. In a sense, it "tricks" the body out of the dormant state so it may normalize faster. But if there's too much damage, there's nothing to normalize.

Here's an analogy; once a spring is stretched out, you can't squeeze it back into shape.

This is another reason why natural substances are preferable over drugs because any drug will make you dependent on the drug. I still advocate HCG and adex because there is no natural substance yet that can do what they do. But if there were, it'd be better to use. Maybe someday. In the meantime, supps like UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE and Sustain are working beautifully . I'd like to see more studies on MyogenX which I still think might have potential.

 

[nickster#1]

I would expand on this, but already done so on two other threads. You said you looked at my other posts? Well, then you have your answer. And yes, new to the board, but not to the game, another thing you should have picked up on reading my other posts. Its early, I am getting ready for work, and need to go now. Have a great day, and maybe in the future, if you are nice and leave words out of threads like WORTHLESS when refferring to something I say in a post, I might acknowledge you down the road in future threads.
peace

I know why nelson thinks the way he does--he has stated his reasons on many occasions---so are you just voting to disagree or do you have somthing substantive to say?

With 18 posts, you are either a noob and therefore you vote is worthless or (and having read your other posts i suspect) you are a vet who just joined the board and your reasoning for "agree to disagree" is worth hearing, so expand, please.

 

[Harleymarleybone]

That's because any study needs a certain guideline to analyze the results. In other words, if you want to test the toxicity of something you don't give a single dosage now and then, you use a more extreme dosaging to study the effect.

But that's like saying that to figure out if a one month cycle of D-bol (for example) at 50 mg a day is dangerously toxic to the liver, a study that has subjects take 100 mg for 5 months (more extreme dosing as you say) will figure it out. Well, that does not follow. If you want to prove that "a couple" long cycles will often or generally lead to permanent suppression, you need a study that has people taking a couple long cycles, not nine. It could easily be the case that a couple won't, but nine will. Plus you need to know what the PCT regimen is in each case.

 

[bicepts101]

I would expand on this, but already done so on two other threads. You said you looked at my other posts? Well, then you have your answer. And yes, new to the board, but not to the game, another thing you should have picked up on reading my other posts. Its early, I am getting ready for work, and need to go now. Have a great day, and maybe in the future, if you are nice and leave words out of threads like WORTHLESS when refferring to something I say in a post, I might acknowledge you down the road in future threads.
peace

exactly and thats coming from a moderator

 

[Nelson Montana]

But that's like saying that to figure out if a one month cycle of D-bol (for example) at 50 mg a day is dangerously toxic to the liver, a study that has subjects take 100 mg for 5 months (more extreme dosing as you say) will figure it out. Well, that does not follow. If you want to prove that "a couple" long cycles will often or generally lead to permanent suppression, you need a study that has people taking a couple long cycles, not nine. It could easily be the case that a couple won't, but nine will. Plus you need to know what the PCT regimen is in each case.

You're splitting hairs bro. Here's an example.

Show me one study done on the dangers of cigerette smoking done on people who smoke 5 cigerettes a day. I'll bet there are none and I'll bet if there were it would show no detremntal effect. Does that mean cigerette smoking isn't harmful?

We're getting into semantics here and whenever that happens the discussion is reduced to minutia and nitpicking. Believe what you want. But you don't seem to understand the concept of PCT and I already explained that so why go over it again?

 

[bicepts101]

You're splitting hairs bro. Here's an example.

Show me one study done on the dangers of cigerette smoking done on people who smoke 5 cigerettes a day. I'll bet there are none and I'll bet if there were it would show no detremntal effect. Does that mean cigerette smoking isn't harmful?

We're getting into semantics here and whenever that happens the discussion is reduced to minutia and nitpicking. Believe what you want. But you don't seem to understand the concept of PCT and I already explained that so why go over it again?

heres a study for you..

me...on for 4 years straight no pct came off everythings normal. lipids, liver function, and sperm count recovered no prob.

try not to throw a blanket over everything bro...not everyone will be permanently suppressed

 

[Singleton]

Do some people write out their training routine? It doesn't matter what exercises you do or how many sets or reps or even the weight. Muscles don't know numbers, they only know stress. And that can not be determined by anyone or anything except YOUR muscles.

Following a scientific protocol is the way to learn what does and what does not work.

Most routines work with numbers. I could pick speed training, for sake of discussion. Why 55% of 1RM for 8-10 sets of 3? Where did those numbers come from?

It's very easy to say, "oh, when I was doing [x], I got better gains." This can lead to misunderstandings and invalid post hoc assertions. (The supplement industry loves to take advantage of this type of logical error)

This is the typical post hoc argument that leads to all sorts of things that don't work.

Do some people come off of 21 weeks cycles? Folks, if you do just a couple of 21 week cycles, you'll be permanently suppressed, most likely for good. What the fuck do you think these drugs are? A joke? Might as well stay on.

That's a pretty bold claim.

I can say that I have evidence of the exact opposite.

I am not permanently suppressed. I've been on one long, low dose cycle; over 20 weeks 250 - 325 of test0sterone enanthat3. I'm off now.

I would like to stay on, permanently, but can't get a doctor to write a script for me with natural test level of 560.

 

[thebadguy54]

heres a study for you..

me...on for 4 years straight no pct came off everythings normal. lipids, liver function, and sperm count recovered no prob.

try not to throw a blanket over everything bro...not everyone will be permanently suppressed

This is not typical.

 

[eddymerckx]

I would expand on this, but already done so on two other threads. You said you looked at my other posts? Well, then you have your answer. And yes, new to the board, but not to the game, another thing you should have picked up on reading my other posts. Its early, I am getting ready for work, and need to go now. Have a great day, and maybe in the future, if you are nice and leave words out of threads like WORTHLESS when refferring to something I say in a post, I might acknowledge you down the road in future threads.
peace

\

Please explain the value to the statement "i don't agree" without anything further?

as for acknowledging me in future threads--keep that attitude up and I promise you add this board to the list of place where you are persona not grata --

 

[eddymerckx]

exactly and thats coming from a moderator

Explain the value of statement "i disagree" followed by nothing. It does not add value to the discussion--and is worthless--- --

 

[Spartacus]

I'd be happy to read the log of someone who uses the word "stentoriousy"

I had to look it up

 

[needtogetaas]

I would expand on this, but already done so on two other threads. You said you looked at my other posts? Well, then you have your answer. And yes, new to the board, but not to the game, another thing you should have picked up on reading my other posts. Its early, I am getting ready for work, and need to go now. Have a great day, and maybe in the future, if you are nice and leave words out of threads like WORTHLESS when refferring to something I say in a post, I might acknowledge you down the road in future threads.
peace

Hello nickster and welcome to the board bro.

First of I would like to say sorry that any one called you worthless. Its not common practice around here

Second I would like to say it seems like you know a thing or two and we love having members like you around. We try our best to speak to each other here with respect. Debating and talking is always a good thing.

For myself I feel rather then trying to slame people and make them feel dumb,like they don't know anything,or belittle them. I try to offer my side of the spectrum and explain why.

If we all look at it like we are talking to each other about a subject rather then trying to prove each other wrong. We can all learn and feel good about the conversation.


In no way does nelson or others want or need to talk down to you, but people
will tend to get defensive if they feel you're ententions are any thing other then just trying to debate the topic in a friendly way. One in which you show them respect and talk to them like they are on the same level as you. Not below you.


As a stated NO ONE WILL BE CALLING NAMES OR MAKING STATEMENTS TO AN ONE ABOUT YOU BEING WORTHLESS JUST CUZ YOU ARE NEW.

WE ALL NEED TO SHOW RESPECT.

 

[needtogetaas]

exactly and thats coming from a moderator

We all word things wrong some times. Or make mistakes. Eddy is 99% of the time respectful to all members. So please refrain from taking shots at the mods when they are less then perfect.

 

[Chocolate_Thunder]

Hello nickster and welcome to the board bro.

First of I would like to say sorry that any one called you worthless. Its not common practice around here

Second I would like to say it seems like you know a thing or two and we love having members like you around. We try our best to speak to each other here with respect. Debating and talking is always a good thing.

For myself I feel rather then trying to slame people and make them feel dumb,like they don't know anything,or belittle them. I try to offer my side of the spectrum and explain why.

If we all look at it like we are talking to each other about a subject rather then trying to prove each other wrong. We can all learn and feel good about the conversation.


In no way does nelson or others want or need to talk down to you, but people
will tend to get defensive if they feel you're ententions are any thing other then just trying to debate the topic in a friendly way. One in which you show them respect and talk to them like they are on the same level as you. Not below you.


As a stated NO ONE WILL BE CALLING NAMES OR MAKING STATEMENTS TO AN ONE ABOUT YOU BEING WORTHLESS JUST CUZ YOU ARE NEW.

WE ALL NEED TO SHOW RESPECT.

Boy...you get your name in red and all and you're just King Shit!! You know I love you bro (no homo)

 

[needtogetaas]

Boy...you get your name in red and all and you're just King Shit!! You know I love you bro (no homo)

lol. How you doing today bro?

 

[Chocolate_Thunder]

lol. How you doing today bro?

Good man how about you? How's the book, family and all that other good stuff? I hope I didn't just hi jack a thread

 

[needtogetaas]

Good man how about you? How's the book, family and all that other good stuff? I hope I didn't just hi jack a thread

No way bro. We are just clearing the air thats all. Defusing things

Kids are great,books doing great to. Every one loves it and that makes me happy more then anything.

 

[needtogetaas]

Just to clear things up. eddy was not calling a person worthless. He was calling a comment worthless. I big difference guys. A big one. Eddy is a great mod so lets give him a little more respect.

 

[Harleymarleybone]

You're splitting hairs bro. Here's an example.

Show me one study done on the dangers of cigerette smoking done on people who smoke 5 cigerettes a day. I'll bet there are none and I'll bet if there were it would show no detremntal effect. Does that mean cigerette smoking isn't harmful?

We're getting into semantics here and whenever that happens the discussion is reduced to minutia and nitpicking. Believe what you want. But you don't seem to understand the concept of PCT and I already explained that so why go over it again?

Basic logic is splitting hairs? A study showing nine years (on average) of 20 week cycles generally leads to permanent suppression, does not prove that "a couple" such long cycles generally leads to permanent suppression. Similarly a study showing 100 mg of D-bol ed for 5 months leads to dangerous liver toxicity, does not prove that 50 mg ed for 1 month leads to dangerous liver toxicity. Similarly, a study showing smoking 2 packs a day for 20 years generally leads to serious health problems, does not prove that smoking 5 cigs a day leads to serious health problems. Actually your cig analogy proves my point well.

Your contention, if you recall, was that even a couple such long cycles generally leads to permanent suppression, and you might as well stay on. But, obviously any study that chooses subjects who have run not just two, but on average nine, is not going to be very enlightening on the issue of the consequences of running two. This is not nit-picking. It is a very basic point, and I am surprised that you don't see it.

 

[nickster#1]

Thanks bro for the warm welcome and the words of encouragement. I usually wont even respond to flames, regardless of how subtle they may be, but the word worthless just kinda got to me. I think that this is a fantastic board and will be participating in some of the debates and also giving advice when I feel I can give an educated and/or experienced answer. I am old school, and feel I can contribute some good stuff to this board.
I will be back after I get off of work. Just thought I would pop in and see wuz up...................
peace

Hello nickster and welcome to the board bro.

First of I would like to say sorry that any one called you worthless. Its not common practice around here

Second I would like to say it seems like you know a thing or two and we love having members like you around. We try our best to speak to each other here with respect. Debating and talking is always a good thing.

For myself I feel rather then trying to slame people and make them feel dumb,like they don't know anything,or belittle them. I try to offer my side of the spectrum and explain why.

If we all look at it like we are talking to each other about a subject rather then trying to prove each other wrong. We can all learn and feel good about the conversation.


In no way does nelson or others want or need to talk down to you, but people
will tend to get defensive if they feel you're ententions are any thing other then just trying to debate the topic in a friendly way. One in which you show them respect and talk to them like they are on the same level as you. Not below you.

I will never talk down to anyone on this board. As I said, usually I wont even respond to flames. It is, as you say, below me to get on the same level.
As a stated NO ONE WILL BE CALLING NAMES OR MAKING STATEMENTS TO AN ONE ABOUT YOU BEING WORTHLESS JUST CUZ YOU ARE NEW.

WE ALL NEED TO SHOW RESPECT.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Basic logic is splitting hairs? A study showing nine years (on average) of 20 week cycles generally leads to permanent suppression, does not prove that "a couple" such long cycles generally leads to permanent suppression. Similarly a study showing 100 mg of D-bol ed for 5 months leads to dangerous liver toxicity, does not prove that 50 mg ed for 1 month leads to dangerous liver toxicity. Similarly, a study showing smoking 2 packs a day for 20 years generally leads to serious health problems, does not prove that smoking 5 cigs a day leads to serious health problems. Actually your cig analogy proves my point well.

Your contention, if you recall, was that even a couple such long cycles generally leads to permanent suppression, and you might as well stay on. But, obviously any study that chooses subjects who have run not just two, but on average nine, is not going to be very enlightening on the issue of the consequences of running two. This is not nit-picking. It is a very basic point, and I am surprised that you don't see it.

We're talking past each other at this point. I can't address all the points where you're misunderstanding me. I never said the things you say I'm saying so let's just leave it at that.

 

[Harleymarleybone]

We're talking past each other at this point. I can't address all the points where you're misunderstanding me. I never said the things you say I'm saying so let's just leave it at that.

No, I can't leave it at that if you say I am misrepresenting you, because I am not. To be clear, you said:


"Folks, if you do just a couple of 21 week cycles, you'll be permanently suppressed, most likely for good."

I then asked for evidence for this claim. You then referred to a study which showed that people who did on average nine 26 week cycles had suppression.

Well, nine is a lot more than "a couple", and could generally lead to permanent suppression, while a couple might generally not.

You then said:

"In other words, if you want to test the toxicity of something you don't give a single dosage now and then, you use a more extreme dosaging to study the effect."

But that is like arguing that if 50 aspirin every day are toxic, a half every day must be toxic. Sorry does not follow.

When you admit I am right, we can "leave it at that" ;-)

 

[eddymerckx]

No, I can't leave it at that if you say I am misrepresenting you, because I am not. To be clear, you said:


"Folks, if you do just a couple of 21 week cycles, you'll be permanently suppressed, most likely for good."

I then asked for evidence for this claim. You then referred to a study which showed that people who did on average nine 26 week cycles had suppression.

Well, nine is a lot more than "a couple", and could generally lead to permanent suppression, while a couple might generally not.

You then said:

"In other words, if you want to test the toxicity of something you don't give a single dosage now and then, you use a more extreme dosaging to study the effect."

But that is like arguing that if 50 aspirin every day are toxic, a half every day must be toxic. Sorry does not follow.

When you admit I am right, we can "leave it at that" ;-)

nelson did not refer you to that study--i did.

 

[Selfcentor]

Why...

...is it that some people complain of nasty side effects and then instead of cutting back the dosage the first question is to ask what drug will counteract the sides?


Because 80 percent of the members on here tell people to take 100000 grams of everything. Thats why

 

[Nelson Montana]

Why...

...is it that some people complain of nasty side effects and then instead of cutting back the dosage the first question is to ask what drug will counteract the sides?


Because 80 percent of the members on here tell people to take 100000 grams of everything. Thats why

Yeah, but it's getting better. There's still a "drugs cure all" mentality though with too many members. Ironically, the vets tend to be the most conservative!

Even Harleybones argument is based on the belief that all you need is drugs to counter the effect and you're fine. This is what some people will never get. It's the old mentality that if they don't see a cut and paste study on it, it can't be true.

Now I know many doctors who will attest to my statements but I'm not going to call up and them them to make a post so some guy on a message board is convinced. But I have a question to Harley; How many examples do you know of where people where have had blood tests and done several 21 weeks (including PCT) cycles and then got new tests and their T levels were exactly where they were when they started? I can guarantee the answer to that is zero. So in some peoples minds, that means it isn't a factor. That's just dumb.

 

[nickster#1]

Old school, vets, that is me. So with that being said, I have to agree that the mentallity these days is drug enhancement to achieve the desired aeffects for what we seek, and more is better???????? Wrong...........
I believe that a perosn who has never done a cycle, and is of the age of 23 YO, and has reached a plateau naturally, eats clean, works hard in the gym, and is disciplined and researched AAS, then, and only then the first cycle should be a TEST_E or CYP cycle ONLY, 500mg a week at 10 to 12 weeks, while running an anti-e durring cycle, my prteference being nolva, but others respond to differant anti-Es better. At least run something that will prevent gyno, not try and stop it after you reliaze that you have it. Prevention man, not cure if it can be helped. Your first cycle will be your best cycle, and to think that you need to run deca, test and dbol is crazy because you have no idea how you are going to respond to these various compounds. If you start having problems while running all these differant compounds for the first time, then its going to be pretty tough to figure out which compound is giving the problems.
First cycle is always test-e, cyp only. After that, and a good solid PCT, and some time off to get your natty test back into line, (bloodwork) then you can try another compound along weith test on your second cycle. Most people choose a deca and test cycle for their second one as they want to put on mass, and for their third cycle, maybe tren/prop, OH YA,,,,,,the shiznit of all AAS cycles in my book.
I wont copy and paste, just give my thoughts and advice from research and personal experience. Its my Friday night as I work weekends, so I am off to have a few and kick it with some friends. Just my .002
peace all
P.S. If I got a little bit away from the point of this thread, forgive me. I just think that people are to quick to using these compounds, and also people that have little experience seem to give advice when they should chill and read what is being posted. And I am not pointing fingers at anyone AT ALL, just speaking in general. This is a good thread and should be kept bumped by the experienced.
Sorry if I got off track....................

Yeah, but it's getting better. There's still a "drugs cure all" mentality though with too many members. Ironically, the vets tend to be the most conservative!

Even Harleybones argument is based on the belief that all you need is drugs to counter the effect and you're fine. This is what some people will never get. It's the old mentality that if they don't see a cut and paste study on it, it can't be true.

Now I know many doctors who will attest to my statements but I'm not going to call up and them them to make a post so some guy on a message board is convinced. But I have a question to Harley; How many examples do you know of where people where have had blood tests and done several 21 weeks (including PCT) cycles and then got new tests and their T levels were exactly where they were when they started? I can guarantee the answer to that is zero. So in some peoples minds, that means it isn't a factor. That's just dumb.

 

[Chocolate_Thunder]

Old school, vets, that is me. So with that being said, I have to agree that the mentallity these days is drug enhancement to achieve the desired aeffects for what we seek, and more is better???????? Wrong...........
I believe that a perosn who has never done a cycle, and is of the age of 23 YO, and has reached a plateau naturally, eats clean, works hard in the gym, and is disciplined and researched AAS, then, and only then the first cycle should be a TEST_E or CYP cycle ONLY, 500mg a week at 10 to 12 weeks, while running an anti-e durring cycle, my prteference being nolva, but others respond to differant anti-Es better. At least run something that will prevent gyno, not try and stop it after you reliaze that you have it. Prevention man, not cure if it can be helped. Your first cycle will be your best cycle, and to think that you need to run deca, test and dbol is crazy because you have no idea how you are going to respond to these various compounds. If you start having problems while running all these differant compounds for the first time, then its going to be pretty tough to figure out which compound is giving the problems.
First cycle is always test-e, cyp only. After that, and a good solid PCT, and some time off to get your natty test back into line, (bloodwork) then you can try another compound along weith test on your second cycle. Most people choose a deca and test cycle for their second one as they want to put on mass, and for their third cycle, maybe tren/prop, OH YA,,,,,,the shiznit of all AAS cycles in my book.
I wont copy and paste, just give my thoughts and advice from research and personal experience. Its my Friday night as I work weekends, so I am off to have a few and kick it with some friends. Just my .002
peace all
P.S. If I got a little bit away from the point of this thread, forgive me. I just think that people are to quick to using these compounds, and also people that have little experience seem to give advice when they should chill and read what is being posted. And I am not pointing fingers at anyone AT ALL, just speaking in general. This is a good thread and should be kept bumped by the experienced.
Sorry if I got off track....................

Good post bro and welcome.

 

[buftup]

Good post.

 

[Harleymarleybone]

nelson did not refer you to that study--i did.

Just to be accurate, Nelson referred to it too, and seemed to think it was relevant when he said as a response to my critique of it that:

"That's because any study needs a certain guideline to analyze the results. In other words, if you want to test the toxicity of something you don't give a single dosage now and then, you use a more extreme dosaging to study the effect."

 

[eddymerckx]

Just to be accurate, Nelson referred to it too, and seemed to think it was relevant when he said as a response to my critique of it that:

"That's because any study needs a certain guideline to analyze the results. In other words, if you want to test the toxicity of something you don't give a single dosage now and then, you use a more extreme dosaging to study the effect."

the article cited is one of the few with actual data on aas users--in pubmed it is cited by tons of articles, but there are no related ones or comparable ones. too many are a report of one person and is concerned more with fertility issues.

I found an article that one cycle will prevent one from returning to the pre-cycle level of sperm production (so maybe conclude lh/fsh production)...but its in rats--intersting but not very helpful.

i would look further but if i see the term "hypogonadism" one more time i will shoot myself