Why the vast majority should avoid 17aa roids

[KEHOE]

Great thread. I like when it comes up every now and then. Same battle rages on both sides. Well I am a powerlifter, an oldtimer I think was the nomiker in a previous post. I have NEVER had elevated liver enzymes, high normal but never out of range whilst using 17aa AS. I have used doses in excess of 200mgs of Anadrol, 40 mgs of Halo a day and 2G of Test a week with no elevation in liver values(above normal). Cholesterol however did vary widely and directly correlated to the large doses of 17aa. All returned to normal witht the cessation of the 17aa AS. I have done the footwork and most of the research and abstracts that I have been able to find, all conducted in the US or Western Europe, give the same story. High Cholesterl and LDL increases risk of heart disease. However that Russian excerpt was a new one to me and I am now and always have been a skeptic of horror stories associated with 17aa AS and their effects on the risk for heart, liver, and kidney disease.
Tell ya what alcohol has caused me more problems then any AS ever has or probably will. I would like to see the abstracts, or at least links to, concerning the refutting of the commonly and widely held belief regarding high cholesterol and risk for heart disease. There is undoubtedly a correlation somewhere in some form but I think it to be mis-represented and mis-understood by the genreal public.

 

[RussianBro]

Realgains, good thread... always something to learn from you, bro...

 

[40butpumpin]

Re: Re: Why the vast majority should avoid 17aa roids

Good post but the cholesterol level thing is not as bad as you think. I am currently researching cholesterol levels and it's direct link to heart disease. My initial findings have shown that the supposed "link" is weak and due to a lot of subjective reasoning, not to mention unsubstantiated tests and propoganda by the pharmaceutical industry. Once I am finished I will post a lengthy rebutall to all chol level myths and reference it extensively. Also keep in mind that the medical industry and pharm co. make a lot of money selling cholesterol lowering drugs, as a side point the Masai warrirors in Africa who eat a high protien diet and have chol levels in the 300-500 range do NOT suffer from heart disease, this is also prevalent in many primitive cultures, but no explanation as of yet from the medical industry. Also artichoke extract is great for your liver, in the end 17aa may not be as bad as you think. But I will let that dtermination be made after the chol level, post is finished-mkay?

I would agree that total cholesterol is very misunderstood and over-mystified, however, LDL is definitely something that could ultimately add to the cause of heart disease, especially if you have high levels of homocysteine. So I would have to respecfully disagree with you that cholesterol levels shouldn't be of concern. HDL and LDL individual numbers are critical. I have been researching this myself for some time, as I'm 41 and this is now a concern of mine. My research indicates that low HDL combined with high LDL and high homocycteine levels will most definitely accelerate aterial plaque build-up and, thereby, cause cardiovascular disease. So I guess I'm really curious to see these findings you're referring to. By the way, how I plan on protecting myself is by avoiding 17aa's and hitting supplements like TMG, B6, B12, Folic Acid, Magnesium, C, E, L-Carnitine, and CoQ10. hth

 

[nolin]

Re: Re: I'm the bro

In don't have time or desire to get into a piss ass fight with ya.
You are flying in the face of all cardiologists bro.....anyone can dig up some obscure studies that prove their points. What the heck does the medical community say bro! Ask any cardiologist about the correlation between hdl and heart disease.

Then dont't slam me. As far as cardiologists go I don't think they know what the fuck they're doing either. Which is why my father in law had to have quadruple bi pass surgey, then a year later have two of the arteries redone because they we're reclogged. And he has LOW CHOLESTEROL! The cardiologist even said they don't know what happened. I don't consider this a fight I consider it revealing the truth. As I stated earlier that is not the only study, and I will also debunk the studies that currently are held to by the mainstream medical profession and most cardiologists. If you want to make statements back them up with facts. I will list 20 more studies if you would like, and I will show you the ones that claim HIgh chol levels are the culprit and show you how they are flawed. If you are a part of the medical profession you should be eager to see evidence from all sides not stick dogmatically to what your coleagues say. Furthermore if you have never seen the arguments against popular theory you should be open to debate, especially when someone has facts to backup what they say. In the end this isn't about fighting with you, I want to know what the truth about CHD is, and I want to help my fellow bro's out, if possible save them the trouble of taking chol lowering drugs if it's not necessary. My tone is pissy because I feel you insulted me and my intelligence by not replying to my quote, but underhandedly saying " A bro said..." as if I didn't exist. Well I do and I would appreciate due respect.

 

[nolin]

Another point

Another example of the fact that you are mistaken is in the LDL, HDL area. You stated that low HDL is the big problem, correct? Well according to the National Cholesterol Education Program (NCEP) LDL is the culprit. Their recent findings show LDL lowering as the primary target for lowering CHD. I don't buy it but I find it humorous that the very system you are trusting for your " Ton's of evidence" is contradicting itself and you by now saying it's LDL that's the big issue, when last year it was HDL. I think they don't know what the fuck they're doing, but here are their results.

The third ATP report updates the existing recommendations for clinical management of high blood cholesterol. The NCEP periodically produces ATP clinical updates as warranted by advances in the science of cholesterol management. Each of the guideline reportsATP I, II, and IIIhas a major thrust. ATP I outlined a strategy for primary prevention of coronary heart disease (CHD) in persons with high levels of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol (160 mg/dL) or those with borderline high LDL cholesterol (130-159 mg/dL) and multiple (2+) risk factors. ATP II affirmed the importance of this approach and added a new feature: the intensive management of LDL cholesterol in persons with established CHD. For patients with CHD, ATP II set a new, lower LDL cholesterol goal of 100 mg/dL. ATP III adds a call for more intensive LDL-lowering therapy in certain groups of people, in accord with recent clinical trial evidence, but its core is based on ATP I and ATP II. Some of the important features shared with previous reports are shown in Table A in the APPENDIX.

While ATP III maintains attention to intensive treatment of patients with CHD, its major new feature is a focus on primary prevention in persons with multiple risk factors. Many of these persons have a relatively high risk for CHD and will benefit from more intensive LDL-lowering treatment than recommended in ATP II. Table 1 shows the new features of ATP III. (Note: To convert cholesterol to mmol/L, divide values by 38.7).




LDL CHOLESTEROL: THE PRIMARY TARGET OF THERAPY



Research from experimental animals, laboratory investigations, epidemiology, and genetic forms of hypercholesterolemia indicate that elevated LDL cholesterol is a major cause of CHD. In addition, recent clinical trials robustly show that LDL-lowering therapy reduces risk for CHD. For these reasons, ATP III continues to identify elevated LDL cholesterol as the primary target of cholesterol-lowering therapy. As a result, the primary goals of therapy and the cutpoints for initiating treatment are stated in terms of LDL.

 

[Realgains]

Re: Re: Re: Why the vast majority should avoid 17aa roids

I would agree that total cholesterol is very misunderstood and over-mystified, however, LDL is definitely something that could ultimately add to the cause of heart disease, especially if you have high levels of homocysteine. So I would have to respecfully disagree with you that cholesterol levels shouldn't be of concern. HDL and LDL individual numbers are critical. I have been researching this myself for some time, as I'm 41 and this is now a concern of mine. My research indicates that low HDL combined with high LDL and high homocycteine levels will most definitely accelerate aterial plaque build-up and, thereby, cause cardiovascular disease. So I guess I'm really curious to see these findings you're referring to. By the way, how I plan on protecting myself is by avoiding 17aa's and hitting supplements like TMG, B6, B12, Folic Acid, Magnesium, C, E, L-Carnitine, and CoQ10. hth

I agree with you totally bro.....I am sorry if I was not clear. The issue is depressed hdl and elevated ldl and the homocycteine issue is important too.
Thanx

 

[Realgains]

Re: Re: Re: I'm the bro

Then dont't slam me. As far as cardiologists go I don't think they know what the fuck they're doing either. Which is why my father in law had to have quadruple bi pass surgey, then a year later have two of the arteries redone because they we're reclogged. And he has LOW CHOLESTEROL! The cardiologist even said they don't know what happened. I don't consider this a fight I consider it revealing the truth. As I stated earlier that is not the only study, and I will also debunk the studies that currently are held to by the mainstream medical profession and most cardiologists. If you want to make statements back them up with facts. I will list 20 more studies if you would like, and I will show you the ones that claim HIgh chol levels are the culprit and show you how they are flawed. If you are a part of the medical profession you should be eager to see evidence from all sides not stick dogmatically to what your coleagues say. Furthermore if you have never seen the arguments against popular theory you should be open to debate, especially when someone has facts to backup what they say. In the end this isn't about fighting with you, I want to know what the truth about CHD is, and I want to help my fellow bro's out, if possible save them the trouble of taking chol lowering drugs if it's not necessary. My tone is pissy because I feel you insulted me and my intelligence by not replying to my quote, but underhandedly saying " A bro said..." as if I didn't exist. Well I do and I would appreciate due respect.

Sorry for the sarcasm bro....but you can't underscore the importance of maintaining a good hdl/ldl balance.

There are so many other factors that contribute to heart disease too such as genetics, high homocyctein, smoking or past smoking, low intake of essential fatty acids, stress, high intake of trans fatty acids and the list goes on...

respectfully bro I don't think that you should hold that opinion of cardiologists. There are some very fine cardiologists out there that are really into their field and care a lot about their patients and they accept new evidence.

We have so much more to learn about this whole issue but we can be certain that people that have elevated ldl especially small"a" and depressed hdl and elevated homocycteine levels are at greater risk for heart disease.

So my whole point of this thread is to educate others, especially newbies, that pop 17aa orals like they are candy, and believe me there are plenty of bro's that do this. Fact is that 17aa roids do scew the hdl/ldl profile in most men and this is not good. My hdl and ldl really get messed up when I take any 17aa roid, especially winny.

Concerned.

Peace
RG

 

[HEALTHFREAK]

The only 17aa I have used was Winstrol injectible. It did affect my ldl and hdl levels negatively but not major. That was the only side, no hair loss or liver problems, and I was using 50 mgs ed for 6 weeks.

 

[cbeaks]

I have only used 17aa steroids once (anavar and winstrol) in a cutting cycle because of the concern for my liver. I want to break through a plateau in the offseason. I was just going to up my test mg. I know that a lot of bodybuilders take large amounts of anadrol. So you guys are saying there is no benefit to taking 50mg of anadrol per day for 4-5 weeks over just adding an extra 350-400mg of test per week? - cbeaks

 

[monkeyballs]

Great post...and this is coming from a 17aa addict. I'm about to start at cycle of Var/Halo.

I was prepared to make an argument against the subject of this post, but you've really covered all your bases IMO. Especially clarifying that you statement doesn't apply to athletes with weight considerations. Powerlifters/athletes etc..

I would add that some BB's are no different in the need to conform to weight classes. Halo hardens nicely, and gives you a little extra fire for your training. This could be especially helpful to a BB prior to a show, who has to train while on a low carb diet. So I don't totally agree that 17aa have no application to BB, but I do argee that the use of these drugs is not to be taken lightly.

Another point of contention is that you lump all 17aa's together. The degree of toxicity in some is not comprable to that in others. Some have single bonds, some have double, and halo has an ever so liver friendly three bonds, which will turn your liver into jell-o if your not carefull . Bottom All 17aa are not created equal IMO.

Low doses of Oxandrin are prescribed for indefinate ammounts of time. I agree that Ox is still toxic and at the dose used by BB's it is hardly a liver friendly AS, but at lower doses the stress is so mild that I see no reason why it should be avoided altogether. Ox is a great drug, and for the new BB who is wary of sides, it's probably the best choice.

Other than that, Great post as usual.

hey RG, did you see the post I made on the HCG thread yesterday, I'm curoius as to what you think about my post cycle concoction.