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Why the vast majority should avoid 17aa roids

Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm the bro

Realgains said:



Sorry for the sarcasm bro....but you can't underscore the importance of maintaining a good hdl/ldl balance.

There are so many other factors that contribute to heart disease too such as genetics, high homocyctein, smoking or past smoking, low intake of essential fatty acids, stress, high intake of trans fatty acids and the list goes on...

respectfully bro I don't think that you should hold that opinion of cardiologists. There are some very fine cardiologists out there that are really into their field and care a lot about their patients and they accept new evidence.

We have so much more to learn about this whole issue but we can be certain that people that have elevated ldl especially small"a" and depressed hdl and elevated homocycteine levels are at greater risk for heart disease.

So my whole point of this thread is to educate others, especially newbies, that pop 17aa orals like they are candy, and believe me there are plenty of bro's that do this. Fact is that 17aa roids do scew the hdl/ldl profile in most men and this is not good. My hdl and ldl really get messed up when I take any 17aa roid, especially winny.

Concerned.

Peace
RG

Good points, especially about the liver issue which I think is the main concern. I also have sarcasm mainly about the medical profession. I know I mentioned my father in law, but I also had a brother in law who died at 43 last August of lung cancer, which was misdiagnosed 3 years ago, and he didn't smoke. Then there's my Father, he had a massive stroke in March. He is now paralyzed and can't talk, or even piss by himself. The problem is last year he went to the doctor complaining of numbness on the left side of his face. They did a cat scan, said he was fine and probably pulled a neck muscle. After this latest stroke the new doctor looked at the old cat scan and said, " Hey, he's had a mild stroke before, there's an infarct, didn't they see that? " So with 3 major fuck up's in 2 years resulting in 1 death 2 bi pass surgeries and a vegetable for a Dad you'd better believe I have good reasons to question the whole system. My mother is an RN and even she says if people really knew how hospitals operated they'd never go to one. Fortunately my Dad was on my Mom's floor and she looked after him. I'm not saying there aren't good doctors, but the case load and insurance companies make it very hard for them to be efficient. As far as the Chol thing goes, I have been working very hard and have found alot of evidence to the contrary of popular belief. I will get it edited and do a lenghty post soon. I must also say I agree with you that you shouidn't pop 17aa's like candy. If you can"t stand needles tough shit. I do believe if it's abused it's really harmful. I'm doing winny for the first time only .25 ED for 5 weeks to end my test/deca cycle. In the end, in Xfiles fashoin- " The truth is out there "
 
monkeyballs said:
Great post...and this is coming from a 17aa addict. I'm about to start at cycle of Var/Halo.

I was prepared to make an argument against the subject of this post, but you've really covered all your bases IMO. Especially clarifying that you statement doesn't apply to athletes with weight considerations. Powerlifters/athletes etc..

I would add that some BB's are no different in the need to conform to weight classes. Halo hardens nicely, and gives you a little extra fire for your training. This could be especially helpful to a BB prior to a show, who has to train while on a low carb diet. So I don't totally agree that 17aa have no application to BB, but I do argee that the use of these drugs is not to be taken lightly.

Another point of contention is that you lump all 17aa's together. The degree of toxicity in some is not comprable to that in others. Some have single bonds, some have double, and halo has an ever so liver friendly three bonds, which will turn your liver into jell-o if your not carefull . Bottom All 17aa are not created equal IMO.

Low doses of Oxandrin are prescribed for indefinate ammounts of time. I agree that Ox is still toxic and at the dose used by BB's it is hardly a liver friendly AS, but at lower doses the stress is so mild that I see no reason why it should be avoided altogether. Ox is a great drug, and for the new BB who is wary of sides, it's probably the best choice.

Other than that, Great post as usual.

hey RG, did you see the post I made on the HCG thread yesterday, I'm curoius as to what you think about my post cycle concoction.

I learned something from this post thanx. I forgot that some BB's do not want to do up in weight class and feel that they do better at lighter weights. Good info about the 17aa differences. Some are surely potentailly more toxic than others but I thought anadrol followed by Halo followed by d-bol would toip the list as worst....but damn it they are also the best in many ways. It was not my intention to lump all the 17aa's together but after reviewing my posts I can see that I have not been clear on this.

It has been my experience that small doses of var aren't that good, except for the ladies IMO.

I think that the BBer can do without the 17aa.....a liitle tren and or proviron goes a long way to harden one up before a show etc.

In fact at least in theory the BBer only needs two hormones...test and tren..... a good dose of test and tren for mass and tren and small dose of test for hardening.
Other nice hormones to include would be nandrolone, boldenone and proviron and these would give you quite a well rounded selection.

Thanx for the comments

:)
RG
 
Last edited:
Well, let's just not kid ourselves........there are legal and medical risks of all kinds associated with the use of steroids, not just 17aa's. The use of oil based injectables also creates the potential for health problems, as well as some nasty side effects for those who are prone.

I think the jury is still out on the safety of fina (I have a bleeding cyst in the funnel that drains my right kidney that appeared after a crazy fina cycle several years ago) and in my 3 decades of experience, none of my old lifting friends has a killed liver from gear.......although I know quite a few fellows my age (53) who have done in their liver with alcohol abuse.

I have used 17aa's off and on since the early 1970's, my yearly tests have never been worse than high normal. Moderation in all things is a good rule to follow.

All that said, I don't really disagree with this well written and well thought out post......for the recreational BB'er, and those new to the game, it's sound advice. But there is always going to be those who are serious, hardcore trainers who consider stacking in 17aa's as essential. These people are quite aware of the risks, but chose to accept them in the compulsive pursuit of physical excellence.....I would put myself in this category.
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i seem to get more sides with the orals especially d-bol and anadrol acne,water retention,high blood pressure,aggresion.mood swings,loss of appetite,headaches,just to name a few but could these be controled effectively using arimidex? and i love proviron aswell makes you feel gooood...
 
ironmaster said:
Well, let's just not kid ourselves........there are legal and medical risks of all kinds associated with the use of steroids, not just 17aa's. The use of oil based injectables also creates the potential for health problems, as well as some nasty side effects for those who are prone.

I think the jury is still out on the safety of fina (I have a bleeding cyst in the funnel that drains my right kidney that appeared after a crazy fina cycle several years ago) and in my 3 decades of experience, none of my old lifting friends has a killed liver from gear.......although I know quite a few fellows my age (53) who have done in their liver with alcohol abuse.

I have used 17aa's off and on since the early 1970's, my yearly tests have never been worse than high normal. Moderation in all things is a good rule to follow.

All that said, I don't really disagree with this well written and well thought out post......for the recreational BB'er, and those new to the game, it's sound advice. But there is always going to be those who are serious, hardcore trainers who consider stacking in 17aa's as essential. These people are quite aware of the risks, but chose to accept them in the compulsive pursuit of physical excellence.....I would put myself in this category.
.


Its always good to hear from the Iron Master as he always has good points and is quite fair. Yes the jurury is still out about tren. It is a very powerful roid for sure and very androgenic and this does concern me at times. Yes oil based injectables carry some potentially nasty risks. I am glad you brought that up as the post could be misunderstood by some and especially the newbie.
 
ironmaster said:
none of my old lifting friends has a killed liver from gear.......although I know quite a few fellows my age (53) who have done in their liver with alcohol abuse.

I have used 17aa's off and on since the early 1970's, my yearly tests have never been worse than high normal. Moderation in all things is a good rule to follow.

These people are quite aware of the risks, but chose to accept them in the compulsive pursuit of physical excellence.....I would put myself in this category.
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Well said IM. 17aa's are virtually essential for what I'm looking for, and the manageble risks are acceptable in order to attain my goals.

Provided that the appropriate measures are taken to provide as much protection to the liver as possible, I think that a cycle of 17aa's can be used in a way that does minimal damage to the liver. It could be argued that a cycle of 17aa's done with all the appropriate liver protectants, would be as hard on the liver as a cycle of fina would be on the kidneys.

As for the alcohol issue, well, I'm sure mickey mantle never used any 17aa's. There are clearly worse things you can do.
 
what is all this only for powerlifters stuff. are you saying 17aa's arent important to bodybuildiers? if so you are sadly mistaken. halo...not much else in this world will make you harder when you walk on stage. and you can take it all the way up to the show..which cant be done with any other AS. anavar does the same as halo but to a lesser degree. now dbol, winny, anadrol...you can probably do without because they will give you strength gains and size gains...but so will other AS.

sure anybody can use them and they will..and you say powerlifters are fine to use them...well what about wrestlers, fighters, football players, track athletes, etc. these are all people that need strenght gains but not a lot of excess mass. a good thing about these 17aa's is the detection time is low...so tested athletes can use them.

now if you are saying the novice lifter should not have to use these for their goals...i agree:D
 
Amenselah said:
the old timers used anadrols and Dballs at very high dosage with no problems....


Our hero, Arnold, had how many heart surgeries? How many is it now, I lost count? Wake up. Accept the risk. Research. Regret may be waiting around the corner to GRAB YA! :mix:
 
Vitamin C

Hi Guys,

If we can conclude short 17aa use does not perminently damage the liver, but the liver values could perhaps accelerate heart disease. I've been reading that vitamin C can reduce heart problems, which could be used as another preventitative measure along with ALA, tyler, etc. Hope its useful to some people.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Linus Pauling lectures on Vitamin C and Heart Disease
August 13, 1993
By Michael Wooldridge, [email protected]
One of the great scientific mavericks of this century spoke at LBL August 10, 1993 at a special seminar hosted by the Life Sciences Division's Lipoprotein and Atherosclerosis Group. Linus Pauling, two-time Nobel laureate and the world's foremost vitamin C proponent, entertained an overflow crowd in the Bldg. 66 auditorium with a talk on Vitamin C and Heart Disease.

The lively 92-year-old first gave a candid history of how he came to take up the vitamin C cause. He was introduced to the subject by biochemist Irwin Stone in 1966. Five years later, he would pen "Vitamin C and the Common Cold," and then boldly go on to champion vitamin C as a fighter of more serious diseases such as cancer.

According to Pauling, the vitamin's versatility in illness prevention arises from its role in the manufacture of collagen, the protein that gives shape to connective tissues and strength to skin and blood vessels.

One of the great misfortunes of human evolution, Pauling explained, was when our human ancestors lost their ability to manufacture vitamin C. Pauling thinks the trait was probably discarded at a time when our ancestors had a diet of vitamin-rich plants and didn't need to produce the vitamin themselves. This left today's primates (including humans) as one of the few groups of animals that must get the vitamin through the diet.

Ever since proto-humans moved out of fruit-and-vegetable-rich habitats, Pauling said, they have suffered great deficiencies of vitamin C. Pauling has forthrightly recommended that people make up for this deficiency with daily doses of vitamin C much greater than the 60 mg generally recommended.

He said our vitamin C consumption should be on par with what other animals produce by themselves, typically 10-12 grams a day. Pauling practices what he preaches, having gradually upped his daily doses of vitamin C from 3 grams in the 1960s to a hefty 18 grams today.

Pauling went on to discuss vitamin C's connection with lipoprotein-a, a substance whose levels in the blood have been linked to cardiovascular disease. Lipoprotein-a is also a major component of the plaques found in the blood vessels of atherosclerosis patients.

Pauling has published studies asserting that lipoprotein-a is a surrogate for vitamin C, serving to strengthen blood vessel walls in the absence of adequate amounts of the vitamin in the diet. In the lecture, Pauling noted that animals which, unlike humans, manufacture their vitamin C and have much higher levels of the vitamin in their bodies, have very little lipoprotein-a in their blood.

Pauling is convinced that doses of vitamin C can help prevent the onset of cardiovascular disease, inhibiting the formation of disease-promoting lesions on blood vessel walls and perhaps decreasing the production of lipoprotein-a in the blood. Vitamin C's link to healthy blood vessels, Pauling said, is further supported by studies of scurvy, the disease caused by vitamin C deficiency. Fifty percent of patients who die of scurvy, he said, do so because of ruptured blood vessels.

Pauling won his first Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1954 for using quantum mechanics to elucidate the nature of chemical bonds. He garnered a Nobel Peace Prize in 1962 for his efforts to stem nuclear weapons proliferation.

The scientist founded the Linus Pauling Institute in Palo Alto, where research on vitamin C and other nutrients continues today. He currently resides in Big Sur.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How Vitamin C Prevents Heart Attacks


In the early 1990s, several large population studies showed a reduction in cardiovascular disease in those who consumed vitamin C. The media reported on some of these findings and this favorable publicity helped push a bill through Congress that prevented the FDA from banning high-potency vitamin C and other supplements.

The most significant report emanated from UCLA in 1992, where it was announced that men who took 800 mg a day of vitamin C lived six years longer than those who consumed the FDA's recommended daily allowance of 60 mg a day. The study, which evaluated 11,348 participants over a ten year period of time, showed that high vitamin C intake extended average life span and reduced mortality from cardiovascular disease by 42%. This study was published in the journal Epidemiology (1992; 3:3, pp 194-202).

The results of the UCLA report were partially confirmed four years later in a nine year study involving 11,178 participants that was published in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (August 1996). This study showed that people who took vitamin C and E supplements experienced a 42% reduction in overall mortality.

In response to these reports, scientists set out to determine the specific mechanism by which vitamin C protects against cardiovascular disease. Drs. Linus Pauling, Mathias Rath and others offered persuasive evidence that atherosclerosis is a natural protective mechanism against the arterial deteriorating effects induced by a vitamin C deficiency. Pauling and others showed that the body forms atherosclerotic plaque in order to protect the arterial wall against the acute disintegration that would normally occur in a vitamin C deficient state. Pauling's rationale for the epidemic of atherosclerosis was that people were not consuming enough vitamin C.

Skeptical scientists, however, believed there were other reasons why vitamin C produced such a profound reduction in cardiovascular disease. In 1998, several well controlled studies showed that vitamin C enables the arterial system to expand and contract with youthful elasticity. Since most forms of heart disease are caused by constricted arteries that feed the heart muscle, it is crucial to maintain arterial dilation function-exactly what vitamin C has been shown to do.

Blocked coronary arteries can cause angina (chest pain and shortness of breath) in response to strenuous activity, cold temperatures and emotional states. Cardiologists often prescribe nitroglycerine and longer-acting nitrate drugs to dilate the coronary arteries and relieve angina pain. Nitrate drugs not only improve coronary blood flow, but they also lower the oxygen demand of the heart by reducing peripheral vascular resistance.

Unfortunately, nitrate drugs also produce negative effects. The main limiting factor to the nitrate drugs is tolerance, i.e. the vascular system stops responding to the dilating effects of the drugs and angina is no longer controlled. Nitrate drugs may also cause a progressive weakening of the heart muscle cell's ability to produce energy. When vitamin C is administered to coronary artery disease patients, the vasodilating effects of the nitrate drugs may be significantly prolonged and the energy producing capacity of the cells maintained.

A double-blind study published in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology (1998; Vol 31, Iss 6, pp-1323-1329) compared the effects of nitrate drugs in people receiving vitamin C to a placebo group not receiving vitamin C. The doctors administered nitrate drugs to both healthy people and patients with coronary artery disease and then measured vasodilation response and cellular levels of cyclic guanasine monophosphate (cGMP), an energy substrate that is depleted by nitrate drugs. At day zero, all participants were measured to establish a baseline. After three days of vitamin C administration (2 grams/three times daily), there was no change in either group. After six days of vitamin C therapy an impressive 42% improvement in vasodilation response was observed and a 60% improvement in cellular cGMP levels was measured in coronary artery disease patients receiving vitamin C compared to placebo. A similar improvement occurred in the healthy subjects taking vitamin C compared to the placebo group. The doctors concluded the study by stating "These results indicate that combination therapy with vitamin C is potentially useful for preventing the development of nitrate tolerance."

Another study published in the Journal of Clinical Investigation (1998; July 1) looked at the effects of nitrate drug therapy on human patients. Tolerance development was monitored by changes in arterial pressure, pulse pressure, heart rate and activity of isolated patients. All patients experienced the deleterious effects of nitrate tolerance. However, when vitamin C was co-administered with the nitrate drugs, the effects of nitrate tolerance were virtually eliminated. The most significant improvement was a 310% improvement in the arterial conductivity test. The nitrate drugs induced a dangerous upregulated activity of platelets, but this too was reversed with vitamin C supplementation. The doctors who conducted this study indicated that vitamin C may be of benefit during long-term, non-intermittent administration of nitrate drugs in humans.

An especially damaging effect of nitrate drugs is that they cause a decrease in the intracellular (inside the cells) production of cGMP. This energy substrate is required to maintain cellular energy levels. Vitamin C has been shown to protect against nitrate-induced depletion of cGMP. In a study published in the May 22 1998 issue of FEBS Letters (Netherlands), kidney cells exposed to five hours of pre-treatment with a nitrate drug showed a substantial depletion of intracellular cGMP. When vitamin C was present during pre-treatment with nitrate drugs, cGMP levels were 3.1-fold higher.

Chronic heart failure is associated with reduced dilating capacity of the endothelial lining of the arterial system. Scientists tested heart failure patients by high-resolution ultrasound and Doppler to measure radial artery diameter and blood flow. Vitamin C restored arterial dilation response and blood flow velocity in patients with heart failure. The scientists determined that the mechanism of action was that vitamin C increased the availability of nitric oxide, an important precursor to cGMP. This study was published in the February 1998 issue of the journal Circulation.

Also in 1998, another aspect of vitamin C's effect on coronary artery disease was discovered. A study published in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology (1998; 41:5,980-6) showed that low plasma ascorbic acid levels independently predict the presence of an unstable coronary syndrome in heart disease patients. According to the doctors, the study's results showed that the beneficial effects of vitamin C in treating coronary artery disease may result, in part, from an influence on arterial wall lesion activity rather than a reduction in the overall extent of fixed disease.

The published research findings suggest that vitamin C may reduce mortality in coronary artery disease patients, increase life span and possibly eliminate the effects of nitrate tolerance in those taking nitrate drugs. While not recognized in the medical establishment as a therapy for coronary artery disease, there now exists an accumulated wealth of evidence that vitamin C has beneficial effects in the treatment of heart-related illnesses.

-by William Faloon
 
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