Why the vast majority should avoid 17aa roids

[serge]

There really is no need for anyone to use 17aa roids, except perhaps for power lifters that do not want to gain much body weight. For the power athlete there may be times for hormones like Halo and anavar.

WAIT A MINUTE you say.....".I got great results from d-bol and anandrol." TRUE, you probably did as these hormones are very powerful steroids, however, there is a health trade off when using these roids and more so than when using non 17aa injectables.

SO WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT 17 aa ROIDS?

Simply put they are quite hard on the liver and especially the cholesterol profile. HDL will take a huge nose dive in most men when these roids are used in decent enough doses for good gains.
The three most toxic steroid on the planet are #1. Anandrol #2. Halo and #3 D-bol and probably in that order. Anandrol is probably the worst since such a large mg dose is needed in order to see good gains and this means more of the 17aa compound has to be used in order to protect the hormone from the human digestive tract.

WHAT ABOUT ANAVAR...isn't it easy on the liver?
NO IT IS NOT! Taken in doses that are needed for gains it is hard on the liver and cholesterol/hdl profile.

WHAT ABOUT WINNY?

Winstrol is 17aa in both its oral and injectable form.
It has the distinction of being especially hard on the cholesterol /hdl profile. If you insist on taking winny then be sure to inject it as this avoids the "first pass" through the liver. When a steroid is taken orally it is rapidly transported to the liver through the portal vein and all is detoxified at once by this organ. This is stressful to the liver and more so than most men think.
If you inject the winny it takes days for the hormone to make it through the liver and this of course is far more tolerable. So inject the winny bro's or better yet forget about it and use tren....its a way better builder anyway.


WHAT TO "TAKE" INSTEAD

Trenbolone acetate is not 17aa and it is a very powerful steroid. In fact mg per mg nothing is more poweful than tren. It can be used in combination with test for fantastic muscle and strength growth. It is also fantastic in a cutting cycle with either a small dose of test, simply for sex drive reasons, or with 100mg of the non17aa oral proviron. Proviron will not only keep your sex drive alive but it will also bind strongly to plasma binding proteins such as SHBG and this will allow more tren(or any other AAS) to stay in an unbound state, which is exactly what you want for great gains.

WAIT A MINUTE ...ISN'T TREN TOXIC?

Trenblone acetate has gotten a bad rap. Some insist that it is kidney toxic. Well it is a very androgenic roid and as such it will certainly be hard on some parts of the body...most notably the prostate and hair line, but there is no eveidence that tren is kidney toxic in humans. If it were so then we would be hearing about all the bro's that ended up in the hospital with acute renal failure. This would especially be noted in the "mid west" since this is the only steroid that many bro's can readily get in the country mid west. So were are are the horror stories??

The tren/kidney myth was stated years ago by the late Dan Duchaine and it still has its followers....funny thing many of these men will not think twice about popping d-bols! HA!

WHAT TO "DO" INSTEAD

Instead of using d-bol to kick start a cycle quickly I suggest that you do loading doses of your longer acting oil based injectables, especially the roids with a very long half life like Nandrolone deconate and Boldenone.

HOW TO FRONT LOAD

I recommend that all oil based steroids and testosterones with half lives of a week or more to be injected twice per week or every 4 days. This will give more even blood levels and often results in better gains. Also, there will be no hormone "spike". Hormones "spikes" can trigger sides in the sensitive.
So if you plan on doing 500 of test per week you would inject 250 every 3-4 days. Now for loading dose reasons you take the amount of hormone that you plan to use for 5 days, which in this case is about 350mg. Then you add the amount of your regular injection, which is 250 in this case. That gives you a loading dose of 600mg on day one. You then start with your regular doses of 250 three days latter.

If you are doing a test/deac stack then front load them both the same could be said for a test/eq stack.

Loading these hormones in this way results in better blood hormone levels sooner. Do not worry about negative consequences form this practise as blood hormone levels DO NOT sky rocket over night as some time is still needed to de-esterfy the hormone.
Loading doses are done all the time in the medical field and with some pretty powerful drugs too and with NO PROBLEMS.

YOU WANT TO START THINGS WITH A BANG

Okay then front load test and include 50-75 mg of tren per day right from the get go and you will see very fast and dramatic results without using 17aa roids.

THE POWER LIFTER
Okay, power lifters may need to use Halo or anavar to help increase power with little weight gain, but there is absolutely no reason for the bodybuilder and especailly the recreational steroid user to use 17aa gear.
Power lifters would be better served by a stack of tren and proviron IMHO.

Hope this helps , especailly the newbie who has been told to use d-dol and test.
Peace
RG

pick up a recent issue of Muscular development, they ran a study on oral AS toxicity, basicly the study proved that previous beleafs of toxicity of orals are EXTREMELY exagerated

 

[Realgains]

In regard to the cholesterol issue and heart disease.......someone has posted that there is only a weak correlation between cholesterol and heart disease. Well, many of you have heard a lot from me and I never "slam "a bro. BUT this fellow is way off base.
There is a ton of very clear evidence that points to elevated cholesterol levels and especially depressed hdl levels contributing very significantly to heart disease.

The real issue is this......does a high choleserol DIET necessarily cause high blood cholesterol and crappy hdl...the answer is no it often doesn't, but then again it also can. The real culprit in elevated cholesterol and poor hdl, besides genetics, is a ingestion of a lot of saturated fats.( land animal fats)

Some cultures can have elevated cholesterol but they NEVER have a poor hdl. Hdl is more important than total cholesterol.
Many of these cultures ie: traditional living eskimo's have a VERY HIGH omega 3 essential fatty acid intake so this protects them form heart disease. Also, these primative cultures have a completely unrefined diet devoid of trans fatty acids and other nasties.

I could go on and on and this is only very basic here and the tip of the ice berg.
In ther vast majority of individuals a high total cholesterol coupled with a poor hdl levels and high ldl, especially small alpha ldl will lead to heart disease in time. Aterial plague cannot build up when one has a total cholesterol of 160 or lower, unless others factors such as genetics and smoking and extreme stress come into play.

Now a few bros may maintain a good hdl level while on decent doses of 17aa roids but I am telling you that the vast majority of men WILL NOT! Talk to any MD that treats steroid users bro's...in fact call up Dr Scuggs www.newhopemed.com

Heart disease just dosen't happen over night bro's.....aterial build up happens over years and symptoms do not present themselves until significant blockage has occured. Build up can start in ones teens and continue until symptoms finially arise later in life and sometimes as early as the late twenties.

I have helped in open heart surgery for many years(RN) and I have seen men in their thirties that have had open heart surgery. I can count at least three men that admitted to using oral AAS. These same men had NO OTHER risk factors for heart disease.

So you are risking greatly accelerated aterial plaque build up if you consistently use these roids over several years even if you limit them to 4-6 weeks at a time.

Of course when you are 20 you ususally don't even think about these issues but that is too bad. By the time most men are in their mid to late twenties they wake up and start to consider the worst side effect of steroid use....the silient side...crappy cholesterol profile with depressed hdl and elevated ldl.

Now if you can use 17aa orals and the ingestion of tons of essentail fatty acids and anti oxidants seem to keep your cholesterol 'hdl profile good then more power to ya....but consider yourself an oddity. Also, remember to take lots of Tylers detox and ALA-r and get your liver enzymes checked frequently. These thing do help but they are not magic potions.

Again I ask you why use them when you do not need to. We have tren, test, loading doses of injectables etc ...why risk it at all.

Many vets , have given up all 17aa roids and stick to tren or combo's of tren and test, tren and nandrolone or tren and boldenone etc. These are smart men...gee I wonder why they quit using the 17aa orals.

Sorry for the sarcasm but I am a little inflamed right now.

Good health and luck to all my bro's.


Hope this clears some things up
Peace

RG

 

[Dr.RobertBanner]

Good post realgainz. I don't think that sane oral use is near as bad as people make it out to be and very few unlucky guys will ever suffer serious problems from it, BUT why put your body under that stress all the time and take that risk when you can get things done w/o them. Used sparingly they're OK (not as the bulk of your cycle) but the only atheletes that should use large amount of 17aa's (in my humble opinion): serious bbing competitors, guys striving to get really crazy huge, and competitive athletes (powerlifters included), who's best drugs, depending on the sport, are very often 17aa's.

BTW glad you mentioned frontloading, but I'd rather see someone just double the first weeks dosage if it's a long acting ester, maybe even the first two weeks for deca and EQ. But spread out the frontload over a couple of days, you don't want to pump 1-2gm of gear into only to find out you have a bad reaction to it or it makes you really sore (and you shot into both glutes and a quad, ouch), not to mention absorbtion is better with smaller depots vesus big honking 5cc shots.

Good to see someone clear up the misconception that ox is completely harmless and safe for your liver, especially at an effective bbing dose.

 

[Realgains]

Good post realgainz. I don't think that sane oral use is near as bad as people make it out to be and very few unlucky guys will ever suffer serious problems from it, BUT why put your body under that stress all the time and take that risk when you can get things done w/o them. Used sparingly they're OK (not as the bulk of your cycle) but the only atheletes that should use large amount of 17aa's (in my humble opinion): serious bbing competitors, guys striving to get really crazy huge, and competitive athletes (powerlifters included), who's best drugs, depending on the sport, are very often 17aa's.

BTW glad you mentioned frontloading, but I'd rather see someone just double the first weeks dosage if it's a long acting ester, maybe even the first two weeks for deca and EQ. But spread out the frontload over a couple of days, you don't want to pump 1-2gm of gear into only to find out you have a bad reaction to it or it makes you really sore (and you shot into both glutes and a quad, ouch), not to mention absorbtion is better with smaller depots vesus big honking 5cc shots.

Good to see someone clear up the misconception that ox is completely harmless and safe for your liver, especially at an effective bbing dose.

Thank you for your kind words and you have a very balanced and correct opinion of 17aa roid use.

About the front loading.......yes it can be effective as you stated. If one loads in the pure fashion, like the way I mentioned, they should not be doing two grams at once if they are not experienced with the hormone. Loads of up to 1.5 grams are really no big deal...remember now, it takes time for these hormones to de-esterfy especailly with deac and EQ so it isn't a big deal for the body. Doing d-bol at 30 mg on day one is more stressful than a 1200mg of gear in a loading dose on day one. As a matter of fact I feel comfortable uping that to 2 grams.

Again thanx bro

 

[CHARCHECK]

these are some really good posts..for I am in the medical field as well, and well it seems some know their shit..and well some BS thru it...my q for u realgainz is...I am taking Winny 50 mg EOD for 6 weeks at the end of this cycle I am currently on..Is it wise to get some liver protectants..if so what kind ?? Always appreciated !!

 

[PlateheadJim]

these are some really good posts..for I am in the medical field as well, and well it seems some know their shit..and well some BS thru it...my q for u realgainz is...I am taking Winny 50 mg EOD for 6 weeks at the end of this cycle I am currently on..Is it wise to get some liver protectants..if so what kind ?? Always appreciated !!

Take a min of 600mg of ALA - supposedly this is better then other so called liver protectors like milk thistle,etc..

 

[Realgains]

these are some really good posts..for I am in the medical field as well, and well it seems some know their shit..and well some BS thru it...my q for u realgainz is...I am taking Winny 50 mg EOD for 6 weeks at the end of this cycle I am currently on..Is it wise to get some liver protectants..if so what kind ?? Always appreciated !!

ALA and Tylers liver detox pill
www.anabolicfitness.com go to the "store"

 

[Realgains]

Look bro's I will be the first to admit that the 17aa issue is blown out of proportion by many. They are not as bad a SOME people say.....but there are risks envolved when using them compaired to uing the non 17aa injectables.

Again it boils down to this.....why use them at all when you have tren, test and front loading? (some power lifters excluded)

Peace

RG

 

[nolin]

I'm the bro

In regard to the cholesterol issue and heart disease.......someone has posted that there is only a weak correlation between cholesterol and heart disease. Well, many of you have heard a lot from me and I never "slam "a bro. BUT this fellow is way off base.
There is a ton of very clear evidence that points to elevated cholesterol levels and especially depressed hdl levels contributing very significantly to heart disease.

The real issue is this......does a high choleserol DIET necessarily cause high blood cholesterol and crappy hdl...the answer is no it often doesn't, but then again it also can. The real culprit in elevated cholesterol and poor hdl, besides genetics, is a ingestion of a lot of saturated fats.( land animal fats)

Some cultures can have elevated cholesterol but they NEVER have a poor hdl. Hdl is more important than total cholesterol.
Many of these cultures ie: traditional living eskimo's have a VERY HIGH omega 3 essential fatty acid intake so this protects them form heart disease. Also, these primative cultures have a completely unrefined diet devoid of trans fatty acids and other nasties.

I could go on and on and this is only very basic here and the tip of the ice berg.
In ther vast majority of individuals a high total cholesterol coupled with a poor hdl levels and high ldl, especially small alpha ldl will lead to heart disease in time. Aterial plague cannot build up when one has a total cholesterol of 160 or lower, unless others factors such as genetics and smoking and extreme stress come into play.

Now a few bros may maintain a good hdl level while on decent doses of 17aa roids but I am telling you that the vast majority of men WILL NOT! Talk to any MD that treats steroid users bro's...in fact call up Dr Scuggs www.newhopemed.com

Heart disease just dosen't happen over night bro's.....aterial build up happens over years and symptoms do not present themselves until significant blockage has occured. Build up can start in ones teens and continue until symptoms finially arise later in life and sometimes as early as the late twenties.

I have helped in open heart surgery for many years(RN) and I have seen men in their thirties that have had open heart surgery. I can count at least three men that admitted to using oral AAS. These same men had NO OTHER risk factors for heart disease.

So you are risking greatly accelerated aterial plaque build up if you consistently use these roids over several years even if you limit them to 4-6 weeks at a time.

Of course when you are 20 you ususally don't even think about these issues but that is too bad. By the time most men are in their mid to late twenties they wake up and start to consider the worst side effect of steroid use....the silient side...crappy cholesterol profile with depressed hdl and elevated ldl.

Now if you can use 17aa orals and the ingestion of tons of essentail fatty acids and anti oxidants seem to keep your cholesterol 'hdl profile good then more power to ya....but consider yourself an oddity. Also, remember to take lots of Tylers detox and ALA-r and get your liver enzymes checked frequently. These thing do help but they are not magic potions.

Again I ask you why use them when you do not need to. We have tren, test, loading doses of injectables etc ...why risk it at all.

Many vets , have given up all 17aa roids and stick to tren or combo's of tren and test, tren and nandrolone or tren and boldenone etc. These are smart men...gee I wonder why they quit using the 17aa orals.

Sorry for the sarcasm but I am a little inflamed right now.

Good health and luck to all my bro's.


Hope this clears some things up
Peace

RG

I'm the bro and as I stated I will post my findings with references. Let's see the ton's of evidence you are speaking of, I'm sure it's the same old antiquated bullshit about a rabbit they fed lard for 3 months that had clogged arteries. Anyway here is one article, a brief summary of a follow up study on Russian men. Notice that the guys woth low LDL and high HDL were hypocholesterolemic. If you want to slam me let's see the studies, and I will promptly debunk everyone. Here is the article:

Increased risk of coronary heart disease death in men with low total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol in the Russian Lipid Research Clinics Prevalence Follow-up Study
DB Shestov, AD Deev, AN Klimov, CE Davis and HA Tyroler
Institute of Experimental Medicine, Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, St. Petersburg.

BACKGROUND. A continuously increasing risk of coronary heart disease with increasing levels of cholesterol has been reported by many observational and experimental studies. However, this type of association has not been observed in studies in the Russian Lipid Research Clinics.

METHODS AND RESULTS. Twelve-year coronary heart disease mortality among 40- to 59-year-old men was analyzed in the Moscow and St Petersburg examines in the Russian Lipid Research Clinics Program. The baseline survey examined 6431 men fasting and free of prevalent coronary heart disease. Lipids and lipoproteins, blood pressure, body mass, education level, alcohol intake, and smoking history were obtained. Mortality follow-up was based on contacts with participants or their relatives or neighbors. Coronary heart disease mortality was analyzed based on risk factor levels and was further divided into rapid and nonrapid deaths. A J-shaped cholesterol-coronary heart disease risk function was present for both total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol. Further examination showed hypocholesterolemic men to have lower low-density and higher high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, higher alcohol consumption, leaner body mass, and less education than men with normal or high cholesterol levels. When education level was considered, the J-shaped risk function was present only among men with less than a high school education. When deaths were classified into rapid (less than 24 hours after onset of symptoms) and nonrapid, the J-shaped risk function was restricted to rapid deaths. CONCLUSIONS. The results of disclose a sizeable subset of hypocholesterolemics in this population at increased risk of cardiac death associated with lifestyle characteristics.


Bottom line is a " sizable subset ", which basically means that they can't say for sure what the fuck is going on because their study doesn't jive with popular theory. And they definitely can't say the guys with high overall chol levels are more at risk. Want some more?

 

[Realgains]

Re: I'm the bro

I'm the bro and as I stated I will post my findings with references. Let's see the ton's of evidence you are speaking of, I'm sure it's the same old antiquated bullshit about a rabbit they fed lard for 3 months that had clogged arteries. Anyway here is one article, a brief summary of a follow up study on Russian men. Notice that the guys woth low LDL and high HDL were hypocholesterolemic. If you want to slam me let's see the studies, and I will promptly debunk everyone. Here is the article:

Increased risk of coronary heart disease death in men with low total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol in the Russian Lipid Research Clinics Prevalence Follow-up Study
DB Shestov, AD Deev, AN Klimov, CE Davis and HA Tyroler
Institute of Experimental Medicine, Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, St. Petersburg.

BACKGROUND. A continuously increasing risk of coronary heart disease with increasing levels of cholesterol has been reported by many observational and experimental studies. However, this type of association has not been observed in studies in the Russian Lipid Research Clinics.

METHODS AND RESULTS. Twelve-year coronary heart disease mortality among 40- to 59-year-old men was analyzed in the Moscow and St Petersburg examines in the Russian Lipid Research Clinics Program. The baseline survey examined 6431 men fasting and free of prevalent coronary heart disease. Lipids and lipoproteins, blood pressure, body mass, education level, alcohol intake, and smoking history were obtained. Mortality follow-up was based on contacts with participants or their relatives or neighbors. Coronary heart disease mortality was analyzed based on risk factor levels and was further divided into rapid and nonrapid deaths. A J-shaped cholesterol-coronary heart disease risk function was present for both total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol. Further examination showed hypocholesterolemic men to have lower low-density and higher high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, higher alcohol consumption, leaner body mass, and less education than men with normal or high cholesterol levels. When education level was considered, the J-shaped risk function was present only among men with less than a high school education. When deaths were classified into rapid (less than 24 hours after onset of symptoms) and nonrapid, the J-shaped risk function was restricted to rapid deaths. CONCLUSIONS. The results of disclose a sizeable subset of hypocholesterolemics in this population at increased risk of cardiac death associated with lifestyle characteristics.


Bottom line is a " sizable subset ", which basically means that they can't say for sure what the fuck is going on because their study doesn't jive with popular theory. And they definitely can't say the guys with high overall chol levels are more at risk. Want some more?

In don't have time or desire to get into a piss ass fight with ya.
You are flying in the face of all cardiologists bro.....anyone can dig up some obscure studies that prove their points. What the heck does the medical community say bro! Ask any cardiologist about the correlation between hdl and heart disease.