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Why Take Nolvadex?

Nelson Montana

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
I know this opens up a can of worms for some people, but I'm going to get it out one more time.

There is no reason to take nolvadex other than to treat gyno. THE END.

It DOES NOT restore the HPTA. I repeat, it DOES NOT restore HPTA.

Maybe you didn't read that right. IT DOES NOT RESTORE THE HPTA.

I know the typical answers. Let's address them.

"It's what everyone does."

Yeah, well a lot of people do lots of stupid shit. Next.


" If it doesn't work why is it always recommended."

Good point. It's always recommended because it was the first form of PCT -- discovered by Dan Duchaine who realized that an anti breast tumore medication can prevent gyno. He was right. he also admitted it was a shitty drug with lots of negative side effects. But back then, deca and dbol was the most popular stack and gyno was pretty prevalent. This morphed into people thinking it was an essential part of PCT.

"It works for me!"

Are you sure? Most people THINK something worked because they didn;t get the feared side effects. It's like THINKING a homeopathic medicine helped if you didn't get the flu. NO. You just didn't get a flu. The homeopathic shit did nothing. Maybe...MAYBE, if your estrogen is low, it'll help libido since it adds estrogen. (People mistakenly think estrogen is HIGH after a cycle, but that's not necessarily the case). More often than not, it destroys libido.

And by the way, since Clomid is almost an exact strucural clone of Nolva, the same principals can be applied.

And the ever popular...

"Here's a study."

Most people don't know how to read studies, otherwise they'd see how flawed they are. They do however love to POST them. There is not a single case where testosterone was elevated and stayed elevated so please DO NOT post studies because they WILL NOT show that and I'm not in the mood to explain it for the hundredth time.


And of course, I'm accused of wanting to push my products. I've even been called irresponsible. That pisses me off.

Look, I don't just buy products and tell people not to use proper medication when needed. I'm not an asshole. The products were designed specifically to help the body restore the HPTA. Just because something is a medicine doesn't make it more legit - especially since it is not a medicine to help suppressed HPTA's. It's an anti breast cancer medicine.

Now, it doesn't make me one single cent whether you use nolvadex or not. If you like it, fine. You should still use the supps because they'll only help. I'm just seeing a lot of noobs lately that sound like their knowledge is from 1990 literature.

Change comes slowly.

End of rant. It just really gets to me when I see people misinformed and other misinformed people giving more misinformation. Nolvadex sucks and is unnecessary. No one who has done a proper PCT without it ever says they'd go back to using nolva. It really just sucks.
 
Flash421 said:
Then what would you Recomend I was about to get some nolva...thanks for the info bro
Click to expand...



HCG

UNLEASHED

POST CYCLE

An anti aromatase if needed

Followed by BRIDGE


And give yourself enough time before starting another cycle. Most people say time on equals time off but I think recovery is more solid if you take twice as long off.
 
I have no idea why you bash it so much. It works and you know it,as well as many others who have before and after blood tests. Theres no reason why you cannot use nolvadex along with whatever otc pct items you want. But to cut out something that is tried and true is nonsense.

if you feel a product is superior then another thats fine, but to say its worthless compared to another really isnt being fair
 
dammit and I was thinking of running nolva/clomid for my pct since there's no bridge/hcgenerate/phystoserms :(
 
HAYEZ said:
I have no idea why you bash it so much.


...................................

For the reasons stated.

......................

It works and you know it,

.........................

It works to prevent gyno, that's it. I know that.


.........................

as well as many others who have before and after blood tests.


................................

I've seen more blood tests where T was suppressed after using nolva so I don't know what you're looknig at.



.....................................
Theres no reason why you cannot use nolvadex along with whatever otc pct items you want. But to cut out something that is tried and true is nonsense.

.................

The fact that you think it's "tried and true" is nonsense. It's a myth -- like throwing salt over your shoulder for good luck. And I can think of a few reasons starting with loss of libido, lowered IGF, elevated estrogen, headaches, nausea and impotence.


...................................


if you feel a product is superior then another thats fine, but to say its worthless compared to another really isnt being fair

......................

I believe that's what I said. If someone has gyno, I'd recommend nolva. If you want to avoid a crash after a cycle, you're usually better off without it.

Click to expand...


.......
 
Nice post.

Ok so say I finish a cycle of test e at 500mg a week, what should my PCT look like in terms of length with the products you recommended (excluding nolva and clomid)?
 
Nelson Montana said:
There is no reason to take nolvadex other than to treat gyno. THE END.
Click to expand...

Sure there is, its been tested effective for mania and bipolar disorder as well.

Probably one reason is screws with your mind post cycle :)
 
Typo said:
So nolva doesnt restore Hpta.... Wow are you a scientist?

I think most people that have even the slightest idea what they are doing would know this, that is why we use hcg, and it's not always needed.

After any cycle a SERM should be used, either clomid or nolva.

SERMS help to "kickstart" a sleepy hpyothalmic GnRH response.

GnRH is pretty quick to recover but SERMS help the hypothalamus to "turn the key" on the GnRH impulse generating engine.

SERMS block the affect of estrogen at the hypothalamus and since estrogen is highly inhibitory this blocking affect allows for greater LH production.
This "greater LH production" strongly stimulates the testes to produce testosterone.
If you use only gear that does NOT aromatize to estrogen then you don't have to worry about the inhibitory affect of estrogen post cycle(from the steroid)...but SERMs should still be used to counter the inhibitory affect of the estrogen seen form the T production(from the hcg use).....and also from the estrogen production from the aromatization of the T production form your testes after the hcg is stopped.

*Even if you never used HCG you should still use a SERM after a cycle with non aromatizing gear to counter the inhibitory effect of normal estrogen production(from the aromatization of T from your improving T production)

You have to wait until exogenous androgen levels drop to a similar level of what a normal T production would be, in order for this LH stimulating affect from SERMS to work, since androgens are also highly inhibitory on the hypothalamus.

If your trying to sell a product, well good for you, but to put peoples hard earned gains at risk just to make some $$ makes me feel sick.
Click to expand...

"waits patiently for Nelson to come back in and slam ignorant post"

:Popcorn::Popcorn:
 
jmat2407 said:
"waits patiently for Nelson to come back in and slam ignorant post"

:Popcorn::Popcorn:
Click to expand...


Nah, not in the mood. For starters people talk about the inhibition of T from estrogen which is wrong. First off, high e does not inhibit T, it's a separate thing. Also, estro is often LOW after a cycle. But so is T and that's what matters.

And if e is the problem an anti aromatase will work.

The post also used terms like "if you had the slightest idea"... which is bordering on breaking forum rules because its antagonizing and making an insulting assumption that a senior member is ill informed. I really don't need to defend my 30 years in the industry with some kid with 19 posts.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Nah, not in the mood. For starters people talk about the inhibition of T from estrogen which is wrong. First off, high e does not inhibit T, it's a separate thing. Also, estro is often LOW after a cycle. But so is T and that's what matters.

And if e is the problem an anti aromatase will work.

The post also used terms like "if you had the slightest idea"... which is bordering on breaking forum rules because its antagonizing and making an insulting assumption that a senior member is ill informed. I really don't need to defend my 30 years in the industry with some kid with 19 posts.
Click to expand...


Damn Right! You don't!
 
Nelson Montana said:
Nah, not in the mood. For starters people talk about the inhibition of T from estrogen which is wrong. First off, high e does not inhibit T, it's a separate thing. Also, estro is often LOW after a cycle. But so is T and that's what matters.

And if e is the problem an anti aromatase will work.

The post also used terms like "if you had the slightest idea"... which is bordering on breaking forum rules because its antagonizing and making an insulting assumption that a senior member is ill informed. I really don't need to defend my 30 years in the industry with some kid with 19 posts.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry about the way that came across, I am just trying to learn. I posted that not because it is my belief, but because I wanted to see your rebuttal.

I'm sure you can understand if someone is skeptical of people saying... "this stuff doesn't work, but.... We have just the thing that does if you give us your money"

And the fact that it's the same "senior members" putting nolva/clomid down and saying how good N2 products are makes me more skeptical.

Again, I apologize for my ignorance.
 
Typo said:
I'm sorry about the way that came across, I am just trying to learn. I posted that not because it is my belief, but because I wanted to see your rebuttal.

I'm sure you can understand if someone is skeptical of people saying... "this stuff doesn't work, but.... We have just the thing that does if you give us your money"

And the fact that it's the same "senior members" putting nolva/clomid down and saying how good N2 products are makes me more skeptical.

Again, I apologize for my ignorance.
Click to expand...

Accepted. It's a controversial issue but one that is being more and more accepted. It would be stupid of me to tell people I had a better option for something that worked well.

The fact is, nolva does not work well. The body needs to recover on its own and the ingredients I've discovered over the years can help.

If you think that's a hard sell now, you should have been around 5 years ago when it was totally new. People thought I was crazy. But I'm still here, and products like UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE have sold in the thousands and those who do it right are finding it's much better than nolva or clomid. Now if you;ve used nolva and clomid and love it, don;t let me stop you. But I can only report what I knw to be the truth.
 
Nelson... Clomid for the win...

That is all..
 
Gamer2Be08 said:
Nelson... Clomid for the win...

That is all..
Click to expand...

Win what? It killed my dick, makes a lot of people weepy, causes blurry vision, depression and weakness. It can increase estrogen and lower testosterone. In cases where testosterone is increased it went back to a suppressed state afterward. Woohoo, great stuff. But again, if you like it, use it.
 
nolva dont lower estrogen so why would i use it over an AI on cycle? dont make sence.
i would use nolva for pct or not at all.
 
It really like products mrsupps products like unleashed, forma ect!
mainly i think there´s so much talk about it, like marketing the products instead of HCG - Clomid - Nolva...

yes i know that we are in a new era now, we know alot more then before and thats why we can produce OTC products that actually work good!

I know you said that u wherent interrested in seeing articles about nolva and how it works as a HTPA booster or what ever booster, but try looking up
is there any truth in this
Nolvadex best T-booster of the SERMS
?
 
I don't see why people don't just combine the two and do a low dose of nolva like 20/20/10/10 or low dose clomid and then also add in forma, unleashed, post cycle... Because in this arguement of whether nolva or clomid work or not either way you win when taking both
 
Voijn said:
It really like products mrsupps products like unleashed, forma ect!
mainly i think there´s so much talk about it, like marketing the products instead of HCG - Clomid - Nolva...

yes i know that we are in a new era now, we know alot more then before and thats why we can produce OTC products that actually work good!

I know you said that u wherent interrested in seeing articles about nolva and how it works as a HTPA booster or what ever booster, but try looking up
is there any truth in this
Nolvadex best T-booster of the SERMS
?
Click to expand...

That's a perfect example of skewed studies.

#1: Lowering e does not necessarily raise T. You can have low levels of both.

#2: Estro from aromatization is LESS once the cycle is over -- why attempt to lower it more?

#3: Nolva is site specific. It does not lower e overall very well. For that, you'd want to use arimidex or amomasin.

#4: If estro is low, there's nothing for the clomid to do, so it ADDS estrogen.


That's just a few examples.
 
j_p said:
nolva dont lower estrogen so why would i use it over an AI on cycle? dont make sence.
i would use nolva for pct or not at all.
Click to expand...


So you are aware that it doesn't do a very good job of lowering estro. Remind me again how it then is a benefit for PCT? That makes no sense.
 
Superstud197 said:
I don't see why people don't just combine the two and do a low dose of nolva like 20/20/10/10 or low dose clomid and then also add in forma, unleashed, post cycle... Because in this arguement of whether nolva or clomid work or not either way you win when taking both
Click to expand...


For some guys using both works. For some guys, using both hurts -- and then they think the supps didn't work when in fact, the clomid or nolva negated the benefits. I'm just issuing a warning. I wish someone told EM about the downfalls of this stuff. If you feel comfortable taking clomid and nolva, by no means let me stop you. But don't be surprised if you don't recover and feel even worse.
 
fiesta_bhoy said:
Nelson why does post cycle and unleashed not advertise the fact it helps recover HPTA if it does?
Click to expand...


In a way they do but you can;t make medical claims with any supplement. Instead, we need to rely on the bodybuilders knowledge and reasoning. POST CYCLE balances estro, regenerates liver cells and helps with erectile function -- all things that help in recovery. UNLEASHED increases FREE testosterone which helps maintain muscle, keep estro in check and allow the body to have adaquate T while it recovers. So it doesn't CURE anything (nothing does) but it assures you don;t lose your gains or feel a "dip" while you recover. And following with BRIDGE brings back the pump you get from steroids. It's a perfect combination.

REALITY CHECK: People want to think that as long as they take this drug or that drug everything will be fine. PCT is not that simple. Most guys wind up with depressed HPTA's for life because they thought all they needed was "tried and true " drugs. Don't be a fool. Do it right. Do it smart.
 
TheSystemHasFailed said:
Ok, so as I asked previously, what should a PCT for test e for 10-12 weeks look like in your opinion? Just asking as I value your opinion...
Click to expand...


Once again I need to reiterate, PCT isn't just take this and that. It's what you do while on cycle as well. How you run it, how you follow up, etc.

I think this is worth another thread.
 
Nelson has helped bring about the opposition on this board to Clomid years back. He has done a service for doing so IMO, many fought with him over this. Overall I agree that Clomid is one of the most overrated drugs BBer's take. But.... I disagree about nolvadex. I like it
 
jasondub said:
There are medical studies in peer reviewed medical journals available that illustrate that SERMs, specifically clomid, will raise endogenous testosterone in 100% of men while they are taking it provided they have functioning testicles.

Regardless of whether or not the HPTA suppression they are suffering is steroid induced or simply as part of a reduction in overall metabolism due to genetic aging, it raises T in ALL men.
Click to expand...

Isnt that kind of a contradiction? "Provided they have functioning testicles" and "HPTA suppression". More specifically, if they are suppressed and not producing test, then by definition arent they in turn NOT functioning?
 
Nelson Montana said:
In a way they do but you can;t make medical claims with any supplement. Instead, we need to rely on the bodybuilders knowledge and reasoning. POST CYCLE balances estro, regenerates liver cells and helps with erectile function -- all things that help in recovery. UNLEASHED increases FREE testosterone which helps maintain muscle, keep estro in check and allow the body to have adaquate T while it recovers. So it doesn't CURE anything (nothing does) but it assures you don;t lose your gains or feel a "dip" while you recover. And following with BRIDGE brings back the pump you get from steroids. It's a perfect combination.

REALITY CHECK: People want to think that as long as they take this drug or that drug everything will be fine. PCT is not that simple. Most guys wind up with depressed HPTA's for life because they thought all they needed was "tried and true " drugs. Don't be a fool. Do it right. Do it smart.
Click to expand...
In a way they do, so in reality, they don't really... which to me seems to be implied with the wording of things in this thread, and that's my point.

Why use nolva, it doesn't help restore HPTA
ok, what do you suggest then?
postcycle & unleashed

to me that's how this thread seems to be, and many others like it.
With regards to unleashed - how does it compare to the likes of Trib? any tests or anything on either?
 
unless you crash your estrogen purposefully with letro, aromisin, or adex as the test is clearing from your system (as some people do), your test will suddenly be much lower, and estrogen will be elevated when you come off.

the benefit of nolva is to guard your nipps from being affected by this increased estrogen/testosterone ratio, as your body normalizes. whether it actually causes production of testosterone i have no idea. and am too lazy to look. I figured thats what HCG during/after a cycle is for. I will keep using nolva, because im gyno prone and view this as a valuable protection as my HPTA recovers/normalizes
 
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