Why so many people BASH the nandrolones.

[JP@Ironology]

Nice post Bro! Nandrolones are great compounds if used with proper PCT.

K for ya!

 

[Ajax45]

I have been interested in running a nandrolone cycle for a while. My knees are pretty trashed from the military, and I like what I hear it does for the joints. Does NPP have the same effects on water retention that Deca does?

 

[Tryn2]

oK but what if you want to use deca not npp. What should the optimal cycle look like ?

 

[TheAssholeFomerlyKnownAsDBBT]

I posted this on VIP, but thought I would post it here as well for the elite bros too.

It seems that there are so many peeps who bash Deca to no end (especially here on Elitefitness) nowadays, and people who were fucked up from it, either with Deca dick, or had a hell of a time recovering, or gyno, or for whatever reason, they swear they will never touch the stuff again.

This is of couse a personal and individual thing, as many do well with certain compouns, while others not so well. When anyone wants to use nandrolone, people jump over them, and always tell them to use test it seems especially when newbies want to use it. Personally for me, with test I feel side effects more so than the gains. The sides vs gains ratio dosent balance out for me to run heavy test cycles. I have never ran either alone, but I have ran them both without each other before, and have always done better without test as far as gains vs sides go. Correct me if I am wrong .. but wasnt that the whole purpose as to why Deca was ever created in the first place? To produce a steroid that gave the same effects as test (better imo), but without the test side effects?

Anyways, I am willing to bet that the reason why people experience problems with nandrolone, ... is because they dont know how to properly, or effectively, or safely run it. Most people run Deca at too high of a dosage, or too long, or without anything for prolactin, and most importantly in the absense of HCG.

As most people already know ... the ideal way to take nandrolone is as NPP. If you are wanting to experiment with nandrolone, try it as NPP. BigAndy has written a great thread that states all of the MANY reasons why it is favoured over Deca. If you havent read his thread yet, then read it, lot of great info. There are MANY reasons why this is a both a better and safer choice. The biggest reason is that it is basically a much more "effeicient" way to cycle. No "dead" time while waiting for the long acting depots to kick in, or clear. Like test prop for example, you can stop administration of it, if you run into any sides, and start to treat them right away, where with Deca depending on how long you are in, you could be looking at over 4 weeks until it clears.

You also avoid the the cummulative effect of the Deca ester, which compounds when running it for long .. and which is usually what gives people problems. This is why I agree with others in that Deca Durabolin is a drug that should be tapered. Its pretty much the only drug that a handfull of people do a pyramid taper with still. These are the people that never complain of Deca sides or loss of libido. Back in the hay day, when most people used a pyramid taper with deca, no one really complained about libido sides from deca, or the dreaded deca dick. Ask any old school lifter (.. and they have all used it). The wave of complaints started when people switched over to using the same dosage throughout the whole cycle, and not tapering. The cummulative effect with the Deca ester over time will fuck you. So ... for many obvious reasons, NPP is a much better choice. The only disadvantage of it, is the more frequent jabs. However you can get away with shooting it every 3 days, which isnt do bad imo.

The next best thing you can do when running NPP, is run some Cabergoline with it. This is a truley amazing supplement, and I wouldnt think of running Deca, NPP or tren without it.

Cabergoline is a is a relatively new drug from the dopaminergic family of drugs that decreases the hormone prolactin. Prolactin is a HUGE libido killer! Men with high levels of prolactin such as those that suffer from prolactinoma have no sex drive at all. Prolactin is a concern when taking nandrolone/tren. I can't speak enough at how well Cabergoline works. My last run with NPP, my mojo already seemed to be higher than average while taking the NPP. I added some cabergoline to the mix, and it went through the roof! I have stopped it now (off for about 8 wks), and I feel like it has increased my sex drive for good. I feel like i actually have a healthier sex drive now after running the cabergoline and NPP, than before I even started. Maybe I had high prolactin levels before, and the cabergoline leveled them out, who knows, but I am running stronger than ever now. I was more than impressed with Cabergoline, and will be using it again. Orgasm intensity was the absolute craziest though. I felt like I was having multiple organsms each time I bust a nut! lol.

Last but not least .. I would incorporate HCG usage into your nandrolone cycle. Whether you are an advocate of runnning it during your cycle, or for PCT (this is a whole other argument on its own, so run it how you have researched it to be the most effective). I like to run it during PCT as drjmw suggests how it has been reccomended by endocrinologists as the proven method of recovery for years. Many prefer to run it during their cycle though, which is fine in my mind too as long as you dont over do it. However you decide to run it, I would make it the pivitol focus on your planned recovery, use SERMS as a supportive role at best. Several studies are around that show nandrolone actually desensitizes the leydig cells to pituitary hormones. This is why so many people have such a hard time recovering after a cycle with nandrolone in it IF THEY DONT USE HCG. The HPTA may be restored, but the testes have a harder time respond to the LH that's being secreted. You can understand why HCG makes is a good idea with nandrolones. You shouldnt have any problem with recovery.. at all.


I am willing to bet that almost EVERYONE who got fucked up somehow or another from Deca either ..

1. did not run it as NPP (how many people have you heard of that have actually gotten sides from NPP? I have yet to here ONE!).

2. Ran deca for a long period of time.

3. Ran deca at a high dosage (and with no tapering)

4. Did not incorporate HCG usage.

5. Did not take anything for prolactin.

6. Or .. they were using other stuff and stacking it, and could not necessarily pin point their problems on Deca.

When people start chiming in that they got fucked by using nandrolone, I would like to here if all 6 of the above were not an issue for them. I am willing to bet that there is no one who "hates" nandrolone who didnt lookout for the above 6 mentioned facts.

I am a big advocate of NPP, and i think that it will be in all my cycles from now on. Especially for someone like me who is MBP prone. Most people recommend test only for a first cycle. I think that you can make just as good, if not better gains from using NPP to start, with very minimal sides. Stacked with dbol and you should be loving life for pure actuall hypertrophy of muscle fibers, not to much will come close to this stack.

For a first cycle besides the "test only" cycle that almost everyone recommends, I would try an NPP/dbol cycle for a first cycle. THese are my favourite combination of two drugs period. A mild run of these two drugs can work wonders for a person. It really is the ideal stack, and it "should" work for EVERYONE!

I know I always preach this, the big reason why the dbol "should" work for everyone, and why it is so effective, is becuase it is can reduce endogeneous CORTISONE by 50-70%, making it the mother of ALL anti-catabolics (except for tren). This is why dbol really "should" work on everbody. I have seen the studies, posted by FONZ of all people, but they were very interesting. It really doesn't raise test levels that much, (about 5 times your normal level) but it has an unreal impact on muscle catabolism. This is just one of the huge benefits from the dbol.

The NPP stacks SO WELL with the dbol, because while the Dbol is VERY anti-catabolic, the Deca is HIGHLY anabolic. In essence they complement each other perfectly. That is why the old saying of "If you don't grow off Deca/dbol you won't grow of ANYHTHING" is so true, and so forgotton. No matter how fancy you get, it dosent get much better than that. I guess that the only thing that would actually be a more effective stack than deca/dbol, is deca/dbol AND Test! lol. For someone just starting out, and wanting to try NPP as a first cycle I would try something like this....

Wk1-8
NPP: 150mg/e3d
Dbol: 20mg/day

wk1-9: Cabergoline 0.5mg/e4d
wk10: PCT with HCG, (or if you would rather run it during .. go that route)

If you are not starting out, obviously it would make sense to bump the dosages up a bit. I ran NPP at 200mg e3d and found it to be perfect, I wouldnt personally go any higher.

A newbie with everything in check should do quite well with a cycle like this, and they should'nt experience any side effects. If they did, it would more than likely be from the dbol. They could always substitute the dbol for Winstrol or var if they wanted and do quite well also, but they wont be as effective as the dbol stacked with it. Winny is a actually nice compound to stack with it as well, in place of the dbol. I believe hairloss guru is running a cycle similar to that, I would be curious to here how is doing.

If you are smart about how you run nandrolone, you can really reap the benefits of it. I am keeping test to a minimum from here on out. The only test that I will run in my cycles, will be a very small base dosage (like 250/wk). I seem to be more prone to test sides. Especially my hairline, test makes me shed worse than winny for some reason. Nandrolones have 80% less of an effect on the prostate but had 240% greater anabolic effects on skeletal muscle!! Could this be why so many bodybuilders love deca?????? Any old school lifter will swear by Deca. And now ... there is no reason why anyone should really run into any problems using it, especially as NPP form. Just the way that I see it. Hope this might help some of you who were considering running nanrolone but were fraid away from the horror stories.

Cheers,
Mavy

So do you take cabaser right from the start of the cycle, or wait until signs of gyno occur? Would it be ok to take it as soon as gyno signs begin?

 

[MR. BMJ]

This question is dependent on the individual results from each user. I don't really see very much bashing, well maybe a little. I think it is more a matter of whether or not a person is sensitive to progestins or not. Also, it is a lot harder to control these problems if they arise, as compared to estrogenic effects. Also, some people just flat out have harder recovery from nandrolones than they would from other compounds. If somebody states that they have had these problems, you just can't say they are lying. Deca lowers my sex drive considerably, even when test is added in. I can still get my groove on, but it IS a little harder.

Now, with NPP, it is almost like a completely different compound. Almost night and day, and I don't have an explanation for this. I would agree that NPP should be preferred over that of the decanoate ester. The stuff is awesome. I'll always use at least SOME test with any nandrolone/trenbolone cycle I do. Hell, test even at low dosages, will always be part of my cycle.

All Nandrolones have given me backne, even NPP. However, Tren doesn't.

I also like using hcg every 3-6 weeks during my Nandrolone cycles. This isn't for recovery purposes, but moreso for sex drive. If a cycle of nadrolone is only 8-10 weeks long, i'd do a little hcg at half way and again at the end.

I agree that dosage has a direct effect towards libido as well. 200-400mg doesn't hurt much, but above this it becomes more of a problem for me. NPP I never had any problems at 600mg's/wk. low dosages of nadrolone is awesome for the joints, and it just makes me feel good.

Nadrolone is an awesome compound, but some people just cannot handle it like some others do. Same people can experience this with test and other estrogenic compounds as well.

BMJ

 

[RADAR]

My knees are pretty trashed from the military, and I like what I hear it does for the joints. Does NPP have the same effects on water retention that Deca does?

Yes!


RADAR

 

[Tryn2]

oK but what if you want to use deca not npp. What should the optimal cycle look like ?
With tappering ?

 

[Mavy]

DetroitBB, yes I take it from the start, and intend to keep doing it that way. I use it as a preventative measure, much like taking AIs with test, instead of waiting for the sides to happen.

ajax, yes it should be similar to Deca like RADAR mentioned, however some people report less bloat on NPP than Deca (much like prop to enanthate for example), which is probably due again to the more steady blood levels without the cummulative effect of the long acting depots like Deca and Enanthate.

BUT .. as someone pointed out to me on VIP, water retention has nothing to do with the joints feeling better. Nandrolone has been CLINICALLY PROVEN to increase collagen synthesis, thereby increasing synovial (joint) fluid and connective tissue strength. Your joints will be happy.

Mr.BMJ, good points, I agree they do seem like night and day differnt compounds, but I believe that this is how much of a difference a very long ester and short ester can make. You are right, it is an individual thing, and sure you may find estrongenic sides easier to control, but nandrolones are easy to control to bro, but more importantly easy to prevent, so you do not need to get them under control. IF, and thats a pretty big if, you get sides from Nanadorlones while following the safety measures listed above, then yes, you are prone to sides from NPP/Deca, and probably tren as well. The thing is that test sides are MUCH more common Nandrolone sides. How many people do you know have gotten gyno from Deca? Compared with from test? Not even close. Test causes gyno faster than almost all other compounds. Sure there are more probably more users of test, but if you were to look at the ratio of users vs gyno cases, I would say that there are more cases that occur from testosterone.

Not looking to turn this into a test vs Deca thread, but chances are that if you are getting bad backne from NPP, then you are going to get it, and get it worse from test (probably what was causing it in the first place if you were runing test with the NPP). Test is awful for your prostate and colon, your hairline, and your skin. Acne is never really a worry for me, but the worst thing for me is that test makes me shed. Test converts to DHT QUITE READILY, where nandrolones convert to Di-hydro Nadrolone(DHN) which is FAR, FAR, FAR less nasty on the hairline, prostate, and skin if you are acne prone. I dont mind using test, I just have to use it at the right dosage, or sides outweigh the benefits for me.

Mavy

 

[BigAndy69]

A few points I would like to add:

Some people get very bad acne on Nandrolone but not as bad on Test; for me it's the other way around.

NPP and Deca are like completely different compounds, I can't explain why, but they seem to be completely different.

I don't think using NPP for more than 8 weeks is a good idea.

NPP is stronger than Tren in terms of weight gain (I think some people will dispute this)

NPP is the easiest roid on the hairline (easier than primo for most)

Many people are missing out on Nandrolone because of problems they've heard people have on Deca. Your first cycle of Nandrolone is like the first cycle of Testosterone, the gains are unbeleivable (especially in those who do not use tren)

 

[Slyder190]

I posted this on VIP, but thought I would post it here as well for the elite bros too.

It seems that there are so many peeps who bash Deca to no end (especially here on Elitefitness) nowadays, and people who were fucked up from it, either with Deca dick, or had a hell of a time recovering, or gyno, or for whatever reason, they swear they will never touch the stuff again.

This is of couse a personal and individual thing, as many do well with certain compouns, while others not so well. When anyone wants to use nandrolone, people jump over them, and always tell them to use test it seems especially when newbies want to use it. Personally for me, with test I feel side effects more so than the gains. The sides vs gains ratio dosent balance out for me to run heavy test cycles. I have never ran either alone, but I have ran them both without each other before, and have always done better without test as far as gains vs sides go. Correct me if I am wrong .. but wasnt that the whole purpose as to why Deca was ever created in the first place? To produce a steroid that gave the same effects as test (better imo), but without the test side effects?

Anyways, I am willing to bet that the reason why people experience problems with nandrolone, ... is because they dont know how to properly, or effectively, or safely run it. Most people run Deca at too high of a dosage, or too long, or without anything for prolactin, and most importantly in the absense of HCG.

As most people already know ... the ideal way to take nandrolone is as NPP. If you are wanting to experiment with nandrolone, try it as NPP. BigAndy has written a great thread that states all of the MANY reasons why it is favoured over Deca. If you havent read his thread yet, then read it, lot of great info. There are MANY reasons why this is a both a better and safer choice. The biggest reason is that it is basically a much more "effeicient" way to cycle. No "dead" time while waiting for the long acting depots to kick in, or clear. Like test prop for example, you can stop administration of it, if you run into any sides, and start to treat them right away, where with Deca depending on how long you are in, you could be looking at over 4 weeks until it clears.

You also avoid the the cummulative effect of the Deca ester, which compounds when running it for long .. and which is usually what gives people problems. This is why I agree with others in that Deca Durabolin is a drug that should be tapered. Its pretty much the only drug that a handfull of people do a pyramid taper with still. These are the people that never complain of Deca sides or loss of libido. Back in the hay day, when most people used a pyramid taper with deca, no one really complained about libido sides from deca, or the dreaded deca dick. Ask any old school lifter (.. and they have all used it). The wave of complaints started when people switched over to using the same dosage throughout the whole cycle, and not tapering. The cummulative effect with the Deca ester over time will fuck you. So ... for many obvious reasons, NPP is a much better choice. The only disadvantage of it, is the more frequent jabs. However you can get away with shooting it every 3 days, which isnt do bad imo.

The next best thing you can do when running NPP, is run some Cabergoline with it. This is a truley amazing supplement, and I wouldnt think of running Deca, NPP or tren without it.

Cabergoline is a is a relatively new drug from the dopaminergic family of drugs that decreases the hormone prolactin. Prolactin is a HUGE libido killer! Men with high levels of prolactin such as those that suffer from prolactinoma have no sex drive at all. Prolactin is a concern when taking nandrolone/tren. I can't speak enough at how well Cabergoline works. My last run with NPP, my mojo already seemed to be higher than average while taking the NPP. I added some cabergoline to the mix, and it went through the roof! I have stopped it now (off for about 8 wks), and I feel like it has increased my sex drive for good. I feel like i actually have a healthier sex drive now after running the cabergoline and NPP, than before I even started. Maybe I had high prolactin levels before, and the cabergoline leveled them out, who knows, but I am running stronger than ever now. I was more than impressed with Cabergoline, and will be using it again. Orgasm intensity was the absolute craziest though. I felt like I was having multiple organsms each time I bust a nut! lol.

Last but not least .. I would incorporate HCG usage into your nandrolone cycle. Whether you are an advocate of runnning it during your cycle, or for PCT (this is a whole other argument on its own, so run it how you have researched it to be the most effective). I like to run it during PCT as drjmw suggests how it has been reccomended by endocrinologists as the proven method of recovery for years. Many prefer to run it during their cycle though, which is fine in my mind too as long as you dont over do it. However you decide to run it, I would make it the pivitol focus on your planned recovery, use SERMS as a supportive role at best. Several studies are around that show nandrolone actually desensitizes the leydig cells to pituitary hormones. This is why so many people have such a hard time recovering after a cycle with nandrolone in it IF THEY DONT USE HCG. The HPTA may be restored, but the testes have a harder time respond to the LH that's being secreted. You can understand why HCG makes is a good idea with nandrolones. You shouldnt have any problem with recovery.. at all.


I am willing to bet that almost EVERYONE who got fucked up somehow or another from Deca either ..

1. did not run it as NPP (how many people have you heard of that have actually gotten sides from NPP? I have yet to here ONE!).

2. Ran deca for a long period of time.

3. Ran deca at a high dosage (and with no tapering)

4. Did not incorporate HCG usage.

5. Did not take anything for prolactin.

6. Or .. they were using other stuff and stacking it, and could not necessarily pin point their problems on Deca.

When people start chiming in that they got fucked by using nandrolone, I would like to here if all 6 of the above were not an issue for them. I am willing to bet that there is no one who "hates" nandrolone who didnt lookout for the above 6 mentioned facts.

I am a big advocate of NPP, and i think that it will be in all my cycles from now on. Especially for someone like me who is MBP prone. Most people recommend test only for a first cycle. I think that you can make just as good, if not better gains from using NPP to start, with very minimal sides. Stacked with dbol and you should be loving life for pure actuall hypertrophy of muscle fibers, not to much will come close to this stack.

For a first cycle besides the "test only" cycle that almost everyone recommends, I would try an NPP/dbol cycle for a first cycle. THese are my favourite combination of two drugs period. A mild run of these two drugs can work wonders for a person. It really is the ideal stack, and it "should" work for EVERYONE!

I know I always preach this, the big reason why the dbol "should" work for everyone, and why it is so effective, is becuase it is can reduce endogeneous CORTISONE by 50-70%, making it the mother of ALL anti-catabolics (except for tren). This is why dbol really "should" work on everbody. I have seen the studies, posted by FONZ of all people, but they were very interesting. It really doesn't raise test levels that much, (about 5 times your normal level) but it has an unreal impact on muscle catabolism. This is just one of the huge benefits from the dbol.

The NPP stacks SO WELL with the dbol, because while the Dbol is VERY anti-catabolic, the Deca is HIGHLY anabolic. In essence they complement each other perfectly. That is why the old saying of "If you don't grow off Deca/dbol you won't grow of ANYHTHING" is so true, and so forgotton. No matter how fancy you get, it dosent get much better than that. I guess that the only thing that would actually be a more effective stack than deca/dbol, is deca/dbol AND Test! lol. For someone just starting out, and wanting to try NPP as a first cycle I would try something like this....

Wk1-8
NPP: 150mg/e3d
Dbol: 20mg/day

wk1-9: Cabergoline 0.5mg/e4d
wk10: PCT with HCG, (or if you would rather run it during .. go that route)

If you are not starting out, obviously it would make sense to bump the dosages up a bit. I ran NPP at 200mg e3d and found it to be perfect, I wouldnt personally go any higher.

A newbie with everything in check should do quite well with a cycle like this, and they should'nt experience any side effects. If they did, it would more than likely be from the dbol. They could always substitute the dbol for Winstrol or var if they wanted and do quite well also, but they wont be as effective as the dbol stacked with it. Winny is a actually nice compound to stack with it as well, in place of the dbol. I believe hairloss guru is running a cycle similar to that, I would be curious to here how is doing.

If you are smart about how you run nandrolone, you can really reap the benefits of it. I am keeping test to a minimum from here on out. The only test that I will run in my cycles, will be a very small base dosage (like 250/wk). I seem to be more prone to test sides. Especially my hairline, test makes me shed worse than winny for some reason. Nandrolones have 80% less of an effect on the prostate but had 240% greater anabolic effects on skeletal muscle!! Could this be why so many bodybuilders love deca?????? Any old school lifter will swear by Deca. And now ... there is no reason why anyone should really run into any problems using it, especially as NPP form. Just the way that I see it. Hope this might help some of you who were considering running nanrolone but were fraid away from the horror stories.

Cheers,
Mavy

Nice read, but I disagree on a few points. Deca has to be run at least 8-10 weeks to get the best effect. Also any time you have to taper, you are using a useless dose IMO. Not sure if dropping from the standard 400mg/seek dose to 200mg/week, and only over the course of 2 weeks, is gonna be any more beneficial in the end. I agree NPP is the way to go. K at ya.