Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below 
powerforward
Well-known member
whats the deal with nelson's sig line?
-Animated.gif)
.jpg "Research Chemical Sciences")
.png "Research Chemical Sciences")
Why Primo Kicks Your Steroid's Ass.
- Thread starter Nelson Montana
- Start date
T
The Republican
Guest
JibbyJabba said:
God I didnt even notice that, thats such bullshit. Whoever did that, and I think we have an idea of who it was, is obviously a no-good, ignorant bitch who doesnt deserve to be a part of this board.
I really love it how fonz acts like he is the boss. Come the fuck down man. Who do you think you are?
You make your stupid rules and you break them. You are the cockiest son of a bitch on this whole board.
Funny thing is you think you can ban nelson? When it comes down to it, who do you think george is gonna ban? You or Nelson? Go think who contributes more to his pocket.
What a fucking joke. I really can't stand you anymore. Nelson may not be an angel, but YOU started with him on this thread. He never mentioned you, and he said nothing wrong with his original thread.
And now you edit his sig?
-sk
You make your stupid rules and you break them. You are the cockiest son of a bitch on this whole board.
Funny thing is you think you can ban nelson? When it comes down to it, who do you think george is gonna ban? You or Nelson? Go think who contributes more to his pocket.
What a fucking joke. I really can't stand you anymore. Nelson may not be an angel, but YOU started with him on this thread. He never mentioned you, and he said nothing wrong with his original thread.
And now you edit his sig?
-sk
JibbyJabba
New member
sk* said:Nelson may not be an angel, but YOU started with him on this thread. He never mentioned you, and he said nothing wrong with his original thread.
And now you edit his sig?
-sk
Seriously... that's the best point here.
No one ever addressed Fonz - he just had to start flaming Nelson.
I don't know why another Mod doesn't step in and reprimand him.
Tiervexx
New member
sk* said:I really love it how fonz acts like he is the boss. Come the fuck down man. Who do you think you are?
You make your stupid rules and you break them. You are the cockiest son of a bitch on this whole board.
Funny thing is you think you can ban nelson? When it comes down to it, who do you think george is gonna ban? You or Nelson? Go think who contributes more to his pocket.
What a fucking joke. I really can't stand you anymore. Nelson may not be an angel, but YOU started with him on this thread. He never mentioned you, and he said nothing wrong with his original thread.
And now you edit his sig?
-sk
This is probably ture, and for good reason, not to mention Nelson would be missed allot more than most if not all the people who give him shit.
Wow, I didn't even notice. That's funny. Oh well, I didn't put it there in the first place. George did. But I guess fonz thinks he's more important than the owner of the site. I'll let them battle it out.
This makes everything so evident, doesn't it? Fonz has gone from phony guru to bully to petulent little child. What are you going to do next? Kick over my garbage can? : )
I have no battle with fonz personally. I'm just glad the members are starting to see him for what he really is.
This makes everything so evident, doesn't it? Fonz has gone from phony guru to bully to petulent little child. What are you going to do next? Kick over my garbage can? : )
I have no battle with fonz personally. I'm just glad the members are starting to see him for what he really is.
ok here's how I see it... Fonz is excellent to bring nice bio-chem explaination and brings a nice scientific way to see things. However, I must admit that there's a lot of cut and paste lately in what I've seen. There's one study that proofs that monkeys masturbate twice per days and another one proofs they masturbate an average of 10 times per days. Which one to beleive??? It's about time to understand that when it comes to studies, the fact that it is on the web and it has to possibilty to be pasted on a board doesn't mean that what's written in it is RIGHT. Var is roughly 40% less toxic mg per mg than others 17AA AAS. Who the f u c k cares? It still has an effect on the liver. In that case the fact that Nelson stated "Var is liver toxic and Primo is not" is true...
Ok here's the deal girls, I enjoy reading Fonz and I enjoy reading Nelson. Nelson's got some nice writting skills also, which makes his post even better to me since I barely speak english. Fonz you started the flame war without reason. And Nelson has done some progress in making less wars lately. So it would be just a little bit better to not come in those kind of arguments. It's silly now. It's very silly.
Ok here's the deal girls, I enjoy reading Fonz and I enjoy reading Nelson. Nelson's got some nice writting skills also, which makes his post even better to me since I barely speak english. Fonz you started the flame war without reason. And Nelson has done some progress in making less wars lately. So it would be just a little bit better to not come in those kind of arguments. It's silly now. It's very silly.
Singleton
New member
Nelson, I'm glad you posted this. I found a great post by AnimalMass:
http://www.competitivemuscle.com/showthread/t-50.html
Seems like Primo won't cause probs with my prostate, which makes it a possibility for me (a 29 y.o. with a big fuckin prostate)
(The drama is somewhat distracting/detracting)
http://www.competitivemuscle.com/showthread/t-50.html
Seems like Primo won't cause probs with my prostate, which makes it a possibility for me (a 29 y.o. with a big fuckin prostate)
(The drama is somewhat distracting/detracting)
J
Juice Authority
Guest
Wow! I take off for a few hours and WWIII breaks out at EF and I don't get to be part of it of the action.
In any case, I think the center of this debate (between Fonz and Nelson) started over Anavar's perceived toxicity to the liver. I think the study Nelson referred to that I posted a while back showing that Anavar was more toxic to the liver than Anadrol is below. It shows that Anavar at 40mg's ed is more toxic to the liver than Anadrol at 150mg's ed.
Heard in Geneva:
Oxandrin May Cause Liver Toxicity
by Michael Mooney (Original article in issue #7, October, 1998. Updated July, 2001)
(See also Dr. Donald Abrams review in The AIDS Reader March, 2001;11(3)
While Oxandrin is promoted as being non-toxic to the liver, the truth is Oxandrin is a 17-alpha alkylated oral anabolic steroid so it has the potential to burden the liver, just like any other oral 17-alpha alkylated steroid. We have questioned that its potential for liver toxicity would be enhanced when it is used with other liver-challenging drugs like protease inhibitors and other standard AIDS medications, or with higher dosages. We have an answer.
At the Geneva AIDS Conference, Dr. Carl Grunfeld presented the preliminary results of a placebo controlled dose-ranging study that used 20, 40 and 80 mg daily doses that showed that doses of 40 and 80 mg cause incidence of elevated transaminases (SGOT and SGPT), which may indicate liver toxicity.
Doses above 20 mg per day were tested because 20 mg was found to be relatively ineffective for lean mass gain in some men. Oxandrin is a better option for women who need about half the men’s dose. Children need much less. Although most studies tell us that Oxandrin is relatively safe for HIV-negative people, oxandrolone produced evidence of liver toxicity in studies of boys with kidney failure in 1980.1 We have been somewhat surprised at the number of HIV(+) men who report to us that Oxandrin caused elevations in the blood tests that can indicate liver toxicity. Physician’s should monitor liver tests carefully when Oxandrin, or any oral anabolic steroid is used, especially in higher doses.
Winstrol, another oral steroid is a less expensive option for males. It appears to be somewhat more anabolic than Oxandrin, and a 6 to 18 mg. daily dose has produced good muscle gains without detectable liver burden in males we’ve observed. Anadrol is another powerful option, and while it is thought to be toxic to the liver, we had not had one report of Anadrol at doses as high as 150 mg per day causing elevated liver enzymes until July, 1999, after Anadrol had been on the market for about a year and a half.
This male reported that he had used Anadrol with no negative effect on his liver enzymes when he was using the anti-HIV medications Viracept, Zerit, and Epivir. About nine months after he ended the first Anadrol cycle he started a new cycle of Anadrol, but this time his HIV medications consisted of a cocktail of Videx, Viramune, Hydroxyurea, and Ziagen. Within a few months of this second cycle of Anadrol, blood tests that can indicate liver problems became elevated. It appears that one or more of the medications he was using had some problematic interaction with Anadrol. While we do not know conclusively which medication(s) may have promoted the problem, we have been hearing reports of liver toxicity being associated with hydroxyurea used in combination with other medications in HIV, so this should be taken into consideration.
Interestingly, he also said, "... Anadrol produced much quicker, better results regarding muscle growth. It seemed that just looking at weights added mass! I went from about 185 lbs to about 203 lbs in about 4 months. After stopping the Anadrol and continuing the workouts, I leveled out at 195. The Oxandrin seems to be less effective, although to be fair, I've only been on it for 3 weeks."
Added July, 2001: As time has passed since Anadrol has been introduced into the HIV community, evidence of liver toxicity has appeared, but generally with higher dose use. It appears that oral steroid doses over 20 mg per day, in general, should be considered to have potential for liver toxicity. Anadrol has been prescribed in HIV medicine in doses up to 150 mg per day, and at this dose we have had some reports of liver enzyme elevations, including GGT, a discreet liver function test.
Compare Drug Toxicity at Equal Doses
It is important to note that comparisons of studies that showed a seeming lack of a negative effect of Oxandrin on liver enzymes with HIV(-) and HIV(+) people related to studies of Anadrol that showed a negative effect are not credible. When we consider that liver toxicity is a dose-related phenomena, and then consider that the typical doses that Anadrol has been used and studied at are often 100 mg per day, and the doses that Oxandrin has been used and studied at are usually about 10 to 15 mg per day, there is no credible way to use data from these studies to compare the potential for toxicity of the two steroids. To accurately compare them each steroid must be given at the same dosage to matched subjects.
The Grunfeld study that showed that Oxandrin caused elevated SGOT and SGPT enzymes raises questions about whether Oxandin is just as potentially toxic as any other steroid at higher doses.
Those who’ve had liver disease or are using protease inhibitors (especially Norvir) should have their liver function tested regularly while using any oral steroid and take liver protectants like evening primrose oil, silymarin, lipoic acid, glutamine, and N-acetyl-cysteine.
Also, because oral steroids can decrease the "good" HDL cholesterol and increase the "bad" LDL cholesterol, oral steroids can increase the risk of cardiovascular disease (CVD). If you use oral anabolic steroids consider taking 400 to 800 IU of Vitamin E, and 1,000 to 2,000 mg. of Vitamin C with each meal. These vitamin antioxidants help to protect cholesterol from the oxidation that is associated with CVD.
References
Jones RW, et al. J Pediatr, 97(4):559-66 1980
In any case, I think the center of this debate (between Fonz and Nelson) started over Anavar's perceived toxicity to the liver. I think the study Nelson referred to that I posted a while back showing that Anavar was more toxic to the liver than Anadrol is below. It shows that Anavar at 40mg's ed is more toxic to the liver than Anadrol at 150mg's ed.
Heard in Geneva:
Oxandrin May Cause Liver Toxicity
by Michael Mooney (Original article in issue #7, October, 1998. Updated July, 2001)
(See also Dr. Donald Abrams review in The AIDS Reader March, 2001;11(3)
While Oxandrin is promoted as being non-toxic to the liver, the truth is Oxandrin is a 17-alpha alkylated oral anabolic steroid so it has the potential to burden the liver, just like any other oral 17-alpha alkylated steroid. We have questioned that its potential for liver toxicity would be enhanced when it is used with other liver-challenging drugs like protease inhibitors and other standard AIDS medications, or with higher dosages. We have an answer.
At the Geneva AIDS Conference, Dr. Carl Grunfeld presented the preliminary results of a placebo controlled dose-ranging study that used 20, 40 and 80 mg daily doses that showed that doses of 40 and 80 mg cause incidence of elevated transaminases (SGOT and SGPT), which may indicate liver toxicity.
Doses above 20 mg per day were tested because 20 mg was found to be relatively ineffective for lean mass gain in some men. Oxandrin is a better option for women who need about half the men’s dose. Children need much less. Although most studies tell us that Oxandrin is relatively safe for HIV-negative people, oxandrolone produced evidence of liver toxicity in studies of boys with kidney failure in 1980.1 We have been somewhat surprised at the number of HIV(+) men who report to us that Oxandrin caused elevations in the blood tests that can indicate liver toxicity. Physician’s should monitor liver tests carefully when Oxandrin, or any oral anabolic steroid is used, especially in higher doses.
Winstrol, another oral steroid is a less expensive option for males. It appears to be somewhat more anabolic than Oxandrin, and a 6 to 18 mg. daily dose has produced good muscle gains without detectable liver burden in males we’ve observed. Anadrol is another powerful option, and while it is thought to be toxic to the liver, we had not had one report of Anadrol at doses as high as 150 mg per day causing elevated liver enzymes until July, 1999, after Anadrol had been on the market for about a year and a half.
This male reported that he had used Anadrol with no negative effect on his liver enzymes when he was using the anti-HIV medications Viracept, Zerit, and Epivir. About nine months after he ended the first Anadrol cycle he started a new cycle of Anadrol, but this time his HIV medications consisted of a cocktail of Videx, Viramune, Hydroxyurea, and Ziagen. Within a few months of this second cycle of Anadrol, blood tests that can indicate liver problems became elevated. It appears that one or more of the medications he was using had some problematic interaction with Anadrol. While we do not know conclusively which medication(s) may have promoted the problem, we have been hearing reports of liver toxicity being associated with hydroxyurea used in combination with other medications in HIV, so this should be taken into consideration.
Interestingly, he also said, "... Anadrol produced much quicker, better results regarding muscle growth. It seemed that just looking at weights added mass! I went from about 185 lbs to about 203 lbs in about 4 months. After stopping the Anadrol and continuing the workouts, I leveled out at 195. The Oxandrin seems to be less effective, although to be fair, I've only been on it for 3 weeks."
Added July, 2001: As time has passed since Anadrol has been introduced into the HIV community, evidence of liver toxicity has appeared, but generally with higher dose use. It appears that oral steroid doses over 20 mg per day, in general, should be considered to have potential for liver toxicity. Anadrol has been prescribed in HIV medicine in doses up to 150 mg per day, and at this dose we have had some reports of liver enzyme elevations, including GGT, a discreet liver function test.
Compare Drug Toxicity at Equal Doses
It is important to note that comparisons of studies that showed a seeming lack of a negative effect of Oxandrin on liver enzymes with HIV(-) and HIV(+) people related to studies of Anadrol that showed a negative effect are not credible. When we consider that liver toxicity is a dose-related phenomena, and then consider that the typical doses that Anadrol has been used and studied at are often 100 mg per day, and the doses that Oxandrin has been used and studied at are usually about 10 to 15 mg per day, there is no credible way to use data from these studies to compare the potential for toxicity of the two steroids. To accurately compare them each steroid must be given at the same dosage to matched subjects.
The Grunfeld study that showed that Oxandrin caused elevated SGOT and SGPT enzymes raises questions about whether Oxandin is just as potentially toxic as any other steroid at higher doses.
Those who’ve had liver disease or are using protease inhibitors (especially Norvir) should have their liver function tested regularly while using any oral steroid and take liver protectants like evening primrose oil, silymarin, lipoic acid, glutamine, and N-acetyl-cysteine.
Also, because oral steroids can decrease the "good" HDL cholesterol and increase the "bad" LDL cholesterol, oral steroids can increase the risk of cardiovascular disease (CVD). If you use oral anabolic steroids consider taking 400 to 800 IU of Vitamin E, and 1,000 to 2,000 mg. of Vitamin C with each meal. These vitamin antioxidants help to protect cholesterol from the oxidation that is associated with CVD.
References
Jones RW, et al. J Pediatr, 97(4):559-66 1980
Last edited:
JibbyJabba
New member
What say you, Fonz?
I think NM's claim that var is harder on the liver than Primo is pretty valid.
I think NM's claim that var is harder on the liver than Primo is pretty valid.
Similar threads
