Why I don't like some training methods...

[pwr_machine]

...such as Westside and a few others. First off...too heavy, too often. When those words come out of my mouth, I immediately get the response that it's only partials that are heavy and often. Ok, then my response is what are you basically doing in the meet when you have on one of those crazy ply shirts? Hmm...a partial, right? How many times have you heard such and such get a huge lift in the gym, but doesn't come close to that same PR in a meet? It is apparent to me that the goal should be to peak for the meet and get the PR on the day of competition not in a day of training. That's the reason I'm not a fan of many other training methods.

I don't want this to become an argumentative post. I'm simply stating my opinion because I've had members of Elite ask. You may use this thread to state your opinions as well in a tactful manner.

 

[Liftbig]

thanks, thats all i was asking for. i may not always agree with you, but i respect your opinions.

 

[louden_swain]

I think that pwr_machine raises some interesting questions.

 

[slinky]

pwr_machine:

You have voiced some hidden thoughts I've had regarding some of WS methods. Thanks for opening up this discussion.

Tod Becraft and Julie Havelka train me in strongwoman. And they repeatedly say, exactly what you have just said:

"the goal should be to peak for the meet and get the PR on the day of competition not in a day of training"

Tod, who has a 550lb bench back in his competitive days which are now gone due to a pec tear and some shoulder injury.....just a lot of injuries due to pushing it week after week.

I have a unique perspective on this "training balls to the walls" week after week since I'm nearing 40. I want to be able to LAST a long while after my 40th. So I really want to limit any potential injuries; which (knock on wood) have not occured. AND I do not want to experience "burn out".

I'm curious to see what others have to say on this.

 

[jeremys]

this may be leading in to a different topic but i feel "burn out" can be avoided. if one has a few contests during the course of the year and an ultimate goal, it's sure a lot better than having 2 contests and getting bored during the 'off season'

anyway, about training partials.. partials are trained to work your weak points. just something you can't do as well with full ROM lifts.

 

[spatts]

Exactly what liftbig said.

My personal experience is that I blow my gym numbers away in competition, but I've only been doing this a year and a half. We also do circa max phases prior to competion which are speed-strength periodizations that are specifically designed to help the athlete peak at the time of competition. Honestly, when I read your program Jim, it looked like a long circamax phase to me. You mentioned that yours was the only method that involved speed work with bands at a specific % periodized to the max lift for that week in the same move...that's pretty much what we do for circa max.

Also, I compete in the same number of layers as bigguns. Actually, all the same equipment, I believe. This will be my first meet in more than 1 layer.

I don't care if you like WSB training or not. My experience has been that people that don't like it don't really know much about it. So, that's why I wanted to hear your reason.

Thanks.

 

[pwr_machine]

Fair responses from everyone. Thanks. And if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[pwr_machine]

You mentioned that yours was the only method that involved speed work with bands at a specific % periodized to the max lift for that week in the same move...that's pretty much what we do for circa max.

I didn't know that. Shoot me some more info by PM or email if you can.

 

[Liftbig]

And if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

now theres something i can totally agree with

 

[pwr_machine]

I think it's a blessing to be able to do what we do at all, as much as we demand of our bodies.

Absolutely! And it's amazing that we do things so much differently, but still have much success.

 

[spatts]

I didn't know that. Shoot me some more info by PM or email if you can.

A lot of people aren't familiar with the circamax phases...even those that use the WSB principals to train. I will get a few things together and send the links your way.

You're right. If it ain't broke...

I think it's a blessing to be able to do what we do at all, as much as we demand of our bodies.

 

[Numani]

Spatts.

would you mind posting those links on this thread.

I have read one article in the deep squatter articles outlining circa max but maybe things have changed up a bit since it was written.

thanks.

 

[spatts]

They're probably the same ones you read, but each of us tweak them to fit our own needs. The point is that it's a periodization of speed and strength designed to create maximum speed and strength (absolute strength) by a certan point in time:


By: Louie Simmons

Circa Maximal Phase:

Success in powerlifting requires a process known as periodization. This simply is a yearly plan divided into several phases. The final phase is, of course, the competitive phase. Many coaches fall to plan the training of their lifters correctly, resulting in premature peaking and a less than top performance at contest time.
The next time you’re at a major contest, listen to all the gym lifts that were done just prior to the contest that somehow are reduced 50-100 pounds at the contest.

See, pwr_machine, Louie is singing your song!

You can see the rest of that article here:

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls23.htm


Here are some newer revisions and adaptations of the CM phase (bottom of this article):

http://www.testosterone.net/articles/169tnt.html


I can safely say that everyone in our crew uses these circa max phases, and I have yet to witness anyone in our crew not blowing away their gym numbers in a meet. We train to increase speed and strength with the guidance of the westside prinicipals (notice I didn't say program...it's fluid and adaptable), but when contest time comes, this circa max phase is what gets us where we need to be on time.

 

[Numani]

thanks Spatts.

 

[spatts]

I also wanted to add that earlier this year, when this topic first came up, I actually bothered to sit down and write up where I would've been if I had followed a linear periodization through my first year of powerlifting. During my first year of Westside, which I consider instinctive training (you listen to your body each workout, not a chart), I gained 645 pounds on my total. If I had followed a linear periodization based on 10 week cycles, I would've come out with around a 380 pound gain. Restricting myself to the confines of an assigned weight would've limited me. By listening to my body I am able to recognize that there are some weeks that my body is demanding recovery and I don't lift as much, and other weeks where my game is really on. I don't always lift at 100% of my max, I always lift at 100% of what I can do THAT day. This keeps me from being overtrained and injured...and very in tune with my body, my limitations. Rather than, for example, adding 5 pounds to 50 pounds every week for 5 weeks and arriving at a 75 pound total, I would do 10 one week, nothing the next, nothing the next, then BAM 25 pounds, and maybe another 5 pounds the 5th week...for a net gain of 40 pounds and a total of 90. That's just an example, and not actual numbers, but I think you see the idea. It's a different ballgame come circamax time though.

 

[Hannibal]

you listen to your body each workout, not a chart

not a chart per se...

 

[spatts]

not a chart per se...

That's just never gonna die, is it? lol

 

[Hannibal]

We train to increase speed and strength with the guidance of the westside prinicipals (notice I didn't say program...it's fluid and adaptable), but when contest time comes, this circa max phase is what gets us where we need to be on time.

Best point in your post. The training program must be able to grow and adapt with you. Like you said....nothing is static...it is fluid.

 

[pwr_machine]

By: Louie Simmons
Circa Maximal Phase:
See, pwr_machine, Louie is singing your song!

We still have our differences.

The circa-maximal method involves training with loads that are close to one’s 1-rep max.

Not in my method. Training close to one's 1-rep max is exactly why I think we see huge training PR's and then see the same PR's missed in competition or even see bombouts. THE most successful collegiate coach in the history of powerlifting who has tried everything he had the ability to do to get his lifters at the top once said something like this, "Jim, DO NOT do 1-rep lifts in training. Your lifters will leave it in the gym. Save them for the meet." I couldn't argue with Billy Jack, he had a National Championship ring for every finger! Today, however, I disagree. We have incorporated 1-rep lifts near the end of the cycle but only in the low 90% range.

During the circa-maximal phase, the literature recommends the percents to be in the 90-97.5% range.

Also noticed that 93.5% seems to be the cutoff point for my lifters. Not a huge difference, but just thought I'd point it out because it has made a difference in dozens of lifters' performance.

It doesn’t tax the CNS because...

I won't even go there.

Thanks Spatts! It's always good to see everyone else's views. You can definately learn something new whether you believe in it or not. As a lifter or coach, I think we should investigate all types of training and take bits and pieces from each one for our quest to find that perfect training program. Training methods will always evolve, but that's not an excuse not to keep seeking perfection.

 

[pwr_machine]

I also wanted to add that earlier this year, when this topic first came up, I actually bothered to sit down and write up where I would've been if I had followed a linear periodization through my first year of powerlifting. During my first year of Westside, which I consider instinctive training (you listen to your body each workout, not a chart), I gained 645 pounds on my total. If I had followed a linear periodization based on 10 week cycles, I would've come out with around a 380 pound gain.

But you also know that those gains won't come forever. That's something we all recognize as we get more experience and train longer. Even with that said, I want your numbers to keep flying!!!

I'll give my examples, on Bigguns15's "Beginner Training Cycles", there were no assigned percentages. It was 100% effort that you could get that day following whatever rep x scheme was designated for that particular week. Of course, new lifters would make unbelievable gains every week and there was no way to keep up with percentages.

But today, 5 or 10 pounds here and there is HUGE! The percentages are much easier to follow and provide excellent guidelines when the focus is to peak for competition. The numbers aren't etched in stone because even today if training is going well, we can bump her projected max up a bit, in turn, changing the amount of weight she does by percentage.

 

[pwr_machine]

You mentioned that yours was the only method that involved speed work with bands at a specific % periodized to the max lift for that week in the same move...that's pretty much what we do for circa max.

I'm having a tough time finding this outlined. Am I missing it?

 

[pwr_machine]

Also, I compete in the same number of layers as bigguns. Actually, all the same equipment, I believe. This will be my first meet in more than 1 layer.

That just sparked an idea for another thread concerning crazy ply shirts.

 

[Screwball]

Not in my method. Training close to one's 1-rep max is exactly why I think we see huge training PR's and then see the same PR's missed in competition or even see bombouts.

Bomb-outs are caused by inexperience, lack of preparation and ego. IMHO. Meet attempts are based on many factors but to say that training at maximal loads contributes to bomb-outs is without factual basis. This theory is disproved at meets every week throughout the year.

As far as equipment is concerned, different feds have different rules for lifters of all levels. This allows a lifter to choose how he or she wants to compete. There should be something for everyone out there, whether it be raw lifting or multi-ply gear lifting. I think a lifter should focus on how he or she wants to lift without discounting how others choose to lift. My .02

 

[pwr_machine]

Bomb-outs are caused by inexperience, lack of preparation and ego. IMHO. Meet attempts are based on many factors but to say that training at maximal loads contributes to bomb-outs is without factual basis. This theory is disproved at meets every week throughout the year.

Fair enough. But in my personal opinion, it is a contributing factor.

I think a lifter should focus on how he or she wants to lift without discounting how others choose to lift. My .02

Am I being accused of discounting how others choose to lift? Crazy ply is just a term I like to use. I have nothing against the top lifters in the nation or world getting the most they can out of shirts. You might like my thoughts in my other thread "Crazy Ply Shirts".

 

[pwr_machine]

pwr_machine,

I was not attacking you. I was just stating my opinion. I respect your views.

I hear ya. Both agreements and disagreements are part of the learning process. I'm like a sponge. I want to know it all!

 

[Screwball]

pwr_machine,

I was not attacking you. I was just stating my opinion. I respect your views.

 

[Hannibal]

But today, 5 or 10 pounds here and there is HUGE! The percentages are much easier to follow and provide excellent guidelines when the focus is to peak for competition. The numbers aren't etched in stone because even today if training is going well, we can bump her projected max up a bit, in turn, changing the amount of weight she does by percentage.

Another one you might want to check out...

http://www.testosterone.net/html/body_129per.html

 

[DBCooper]

Well to each there own I guess, I think the weekly maxes show you your weak points and allow you to make faster gains. If you miss a pr at a meet you can look back and see why-form-equipment-strengths-weakness's etc. Wow Slinky is near 40? Your even more impressive to me now, that and I like women that a a little older than me lol.

 

[MULE1]

...such as Westside and a few others. First off...too heavy, too often. When those words come out of my mouth, I immediately get the response that it's only partials that are heavy and often. Ok, then my response is what are you basically doing in the meet when you have on one of those crazy ply shirts? Hmm...a partial, right? How many times have you heard such and such get a huge lift in the gym, but doesn't come close to that same PR in a meet? It is apparent to me that the goal should be to peak for the meet and get the PR on the day of competition not in a day of training. That's the reason I'm not a fan of many other training methods.

I don't want this to become an argumentative post. I'm simply stating my opinion because I've had members of Elite ask. You may use this thread to state your opinions as well in a tactful manner.

I would disagree completely first off, WSB's concept is to train frequently with percentages , thats Louies entire philosophy, I have spoken to him in depth about it,the train in cycles and phases they use bands and chain to eliminate the stress of the movement so they can train yr round.
Louis Simmins must have a little bit of an idea as to what he is doing, he does have the strongest POWERLIFTING GYM IN THE COUNTRY...

We however go balls to the walls throught the entire training cycle for 6 mts or so lift in the 90% or greater for the majority of the time, But most of us have an off season where we walk awy from the bar for 2 mts. get small eat less and drink beer and spend time with our respective familys...

 

[MULE1]

I have a unique perspective on this "training balls to the walls" week after week since I'm nearing 40. I want to be able to LAST a long while after my 40th. So I really want to limit any potential injuries; which (knock on wood) have not occured. AND I do not want to experience "burn out".


A few of my lifters age 40 and up

Deb Ames 200lb female 405 sq 250 bp 400 dl
Hal Wilson 45 200 male 680 sq 500 bp 600 dl
John Marino 44 450 bp
"Coach" 48 yr male 220 680 sq 480 bp 700 dl
Bob O'Brian 55 yr male 275 420 bp

these are a few that come to mind
they train using the same method
the human body will adapt, you just have to listen to it

 

[MULE1]

Bomb-outs are caused by inexperience, lack of preparation and ego. IMHO. Meet attempts are based on many factors but to say that training at maximal loads contributes to bomb-outs is without factual basis. This theory is disproved at meets every week throughout the year.

As far as equipment is concerned, different feds have different rules for lifters of all levels. This allows a lifter to choose how he or she wants to compete. There should be something for everyone out there, whether it be raw lifting or multi-ply gear lifting. I think a lifter should focus on how he or she wants to lift without discounting how others choose to lift. My .02

AHMEN!!!!! I have not bombed in two yrs. and hit a pr at every meet excpet bench america...You've got to know where you are at, I have to fight with my guys to keep there weights to a minimum two weeks before a meet .

 

[Liftbig]

good points mule.

 

[pwr_machine]

Re: Re: Why I don't like some training methods...

Louis Simmins must have a little bit of an idea as to what he is doing, he does have the strongest POWERLIFTING GYM IN THE COUNTRY...

I imagine his lifters come from all over the country, right? If he was pulling them straight off the street and providing 500+ pound benches for the average Joe, I'd be VERY impressed. However, he has a unique pool of people that come to him to training from all over. Am I correct?

My example...at Louisiana Tech, the strongest collegiate POWERLIFTING TEAM IN THE COUNTRY, kids come from all over the U.S. to train there. Of course part of their success is the type of training they receive while attending, but again they have a unique pool of people that go to the university to train.

 

[spatts]

Re: Re: Re: Why I don't like some training methods...

I imagine his lifters come from all over the country, right? If he was pulling them straight off the street and providing 500+ pound benches for the average Joe, I'd be VERY impressed. However, he has a unique pool of people that come to him to training from all over. Am I correct?

My example...at Louisiana Tech, the strongest collegiate POWERLIFTING TEAM IN THE COUNTRY, kids come from all over the U.S. to train there. Of course part of their success is the type of training they receive while attending, but again they have a unique pool of people that go to the university to train.

I don't get your point. Are you saying they would have less success if they were all local? I'm missing the point.

Dave Tate, who I assume is who you were referring to with your marketing comment, trained using linear periodization for 12 years prior to training using WSB methods. 12 YEARS! With what he thought were good gains! Then, reluctantly, he made the switch. He's been making pehnomenal gains ever since. Westside sure does have a lot of genetic freaks. I start training there, as often as I can, this fall. Does that make me a genetic freak too? Even though I couldn't lift shit a year and a half ago? I'm sure some people will think so.

The Western method of periodization is one of the most popular methods for strength development. It's the same method I used for the first 12 years of my competitive career. Did it work? Sure, up to a certain point, but then I hit a plateau. This was when the injuries started and my strength began to digress. After we get the basics out of the way, I'll explore why this happened and why so many coaches and athletes still use the program today. -Dave Tate


The rest of the article: http://www.testosterone.net/html/133per.html


I respect the opinion of a man like Tate because he HAS given effort to both ways of training, and not just experienced one and guessed at what his results would be on the other. He is schooled in both theory and application for conjugated and linear periodization; and not just for a few years each, but for decades each.

 

[DBCooper]

Liftbig comes from right outside Columbus. Louie is from the westside, Rob Fusner,me, Tony Beach, and a few others at the gym ALL came from the same high school on the westside. People in this area have barely heard of the gym unless they are BB's or oldtime lifters. There are a few that have moved here but not as many as you would think. Even Chuck V went to the high school down the street from mine. All on the westside.

 

[PolishHammer1977]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why I don't like some training methods...

Does that make me a genetic freak too? Even though I couldn't lift shit a year and a half ago?

Spatts from what I gained in meeting you I can figure out that you are a solid athlete. Not sure if you are a freak though. I am still making that decision.

Keep working and gain freak status.

 

[pwr_machine]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why I don't like some training methods...

I don't get your point. Are you saying they would have less success if they were all local?

Yes, I think it's a valid point that they would have less success if all the lifters were local.

I start training there, as often as I can, this fall. Does that make me a genetic freak too? Even though I couldn't lift shit a year and a half ago? I'm sure some people will think so.

Ok, you guys and gals win. I give up.

I'm pretty much done with this thread. It's taken a turn for pro WBS, I mean WSB training. j/k

I wanted to look at as to why so many training programs leave the lifts in the gym rather than in competition.

I've seen everyone's side on how they progress doing the program they are doing and will continue to progress. Like I said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Keep it up!

I've also provided my side and I've worked with coach that has been in the sport for 25+ years that has a differing opinion. Does that make him wrong because he doesn't agree? No. Does it make you wrong? No.

Enough said.

 

[spatts]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why I don't like some training methods...

Keep working and gain freak status.

I intend too.

 

[Liftbig]

most of the people that train at westside live in central ohio, from what i know a good majority of them have lived in ohio forever. i know of a few people that have actually moved from far away to train at westside. if people move to train at westside its becuase it works. 27 people have totaled 2000+. 28 people have squatted 800+. more than 50 people have benched 500+. and 6 people have deadlifted over 800. 57 people have totaled elite AFTER they started training at westide. and all these numbers are growing. again as far as i know a the majority of the lifters are from ohio.

 

[spatts]

pwr_machine, you don't have to run off, we're just having a debate. If you want to learn, as we do, you have to talk about the nitty gritty, don't run away. That just makes it look like you don't really know much about our training - just confirming our suspicions.

So far you've said that you don't like our training because we don't periodize for maxing out a comp; but we do,

and...

That Westside has more success because lifters come from all over; but they don't. Most are local, and there are people all over the world having success with it. Fact is, it started in Easter Europe, not Ohio.

I'm just trying to understand what you don't like about it, but it doesn't sound like you've really researched it. It seems like you're just going off what you heard. There are a lot of "haters" out there, so that doesn't surprise me.

Nothing wrong with a discussion. We just want your points to be valid, and some are not. It's all about learning the truth. If you learn everything there is to know about how we train, and you still don't like it, that I can respect.

 

[pwr_machine]

pwr_machine, you don't have to run off, we're just having a debate. If you want to learn, as we do, you have to talk about the nitty gritty, don't run away.

I'm not shying away from the debate. I'm stepping away becuase there is no right, senseful answer. On one side, Westside does wonders and has many followers and successful lifters in that bunch. On the other side, I know many coaches that disagree yet have many followers and successful lifters as well.

So far you've said that you don't like our training because we don't periodize for maxing out a comp; but we do.

I'm smart enough to see the periodization in the program. And I didn't want this to turn into bash WSB because I know WSB training is similar to what I teach. I disagree with a few principles, not the whole idea. For instance, 1-RM partials...I disagree. 97% 1-RM's...I disagree.

That Westside has more success because lifters come from all over; but they don't. Most are local, and there are people all over the world having success with it. Fact is, it started in Easter Europe, not Ohio.

Then I apologize for making the assumption.

I've never said the training was wrong. I simply stated why I don't like some training methods and gave my opinions why.

 

[Screwball]

As the old saying goes, "Don't knock it, until you've tried it". I've been lifting for 15+ years and I have tried just about everything out there. Everyone must find what works for them. A smart strength athlete will absorb as much training information as possible from a multitude or sources\resources and tailor those techniques to maximize training.

 

[Cochise (M-Wave)]

I would like to say that I have enjoyed reading this thread. I like it when people exchange ideas so others such as myself who don't know that much can learn. I have met both pwr_machine and spatts and I can vouch for their committment to the cause.

PS Spatts thanks for this statement--"I don't always lift at 100% of my max, I always lift at 100% of what I can do THAT day".
This was a concept I was missing in my workouts.

Cheese Rocking out.

 

[pwr_machine]

I would like to say that I have enjoyed reading this thread. I like it when people exchange ideas so others such as myself who don't know that much can learn. I have met both pwr_machine and spatts and I can vouch for their committment to the cause.

Thanks for vouching for me, Cheese. It is fun to be part of such a debate. I'll never stop learning! I've got a lifter to take to the top!

 

[revexrevex]

Westside is an awesome program, but can get very boring for a recreational lifter.

 

[overhead]

Westside is an awesome program, but can get very boring for a recreational lifter.

Personally, I have found that becuase there are not many set exercises, I can do whatever excercise I feel like doing for the particular half of the body I am working that day. I find it to be very flexible. I have tried more new excercises since starting a wsb type program than I had on any other.

 

[cheesecake]

Westside is an awesome program, but can get very boring for a recreational lifter.

Conventional lifter here. Been training WSB for six weeks now. Not once have I found it to be boring.

How can it be boring when the whole routine changes every 1-3 weeks?
...chad...

 

[revexrevex]

Did you try any other routines? So how can you compare Westside to other routines?

 

[cheesecake]

Did you try any other routines? So how can you compare Westside to other routines?

Is this directed towards me?
...chad...

 

[overhead]

Did you try any other routines? So how can you compare Westside to other routines?

I have tried other routines, and I (notice the "I" not everyone) find WS to be very flexible. And, everything I have read about it seems to say that you should do different exercises and not stay on the same ones for a long period of time. But, if you find it boring or whatever, thats cool. I can't argue that you do not find it boring.

 

[b fold the truth]

pwr_machine: I really wish that we could sit down, face to face, and talk about training thoughts. I am SURE that we could learn so much from each other. It is very difficult to discuss anything like this (with great differing opinions) over the internet. Words can be taken offensively when they are not meant that way and many many other things can take place... Hopefully we can meet someday or talk on the phone...I'd love to talk with you about it all...

Cheese...I can't believe that you said that...
"PS Spatts thanks for this statement--"I don't always lift at 100% of my max, I always lift at 100% of what I can do THAT day".
This was a concept I was missing in my workouts."

How many times have I told you nearly the SAME thing?

B True

 

[pwr_machine]

pwr_machine: I really wish that we could sit down, face to face, and talk about training thoughts. I am SURE that we could learn so much from each other. It is very difficult to discuss anything like this (with great differing opinions) over the internet. Words can be taken offensively when they are not meant that way and many many other things can take place... Hopefully we can meet someday or talk on the phone...I'd love to talk with you about it all...

If I could ever take you up on that offer, I would. There's quite a handful of knowledgeable people on here that I would like to sit down with and just pick their brain. And you are absolutely correct, it's hard to relay your true thoughts by typing. Often, I have a million thoughts and comments running through my head but my fingers would never keep up and the thread would end up 100's of pages long. Nonetheless, it's still a great learning tool. Most importantly, if we all had the same opinions our training would become quite stale, wouldn't it?

 

[MULE1]

Pwr Machine this is not , not directed at you, But I have found many "certified" coaches do not kknow there ass from a hole in the ground, Louie has over 32 yrs of experience. he has pulleed over 700 squatted over 900 and vbenched not sure but I believe over 600 all over 50 yrs of age.
The local strength training programs at various highs scholls and colleges are a joke. They think speed is the answer for the football team they all go to speed camp, this si great except that most of the kids are under 200 lbs.
I got one of the defensive lineman from a local high school to join, he is 16, after working with him his squat went to 600 benh 350 and dl 635 all natural without support gear. He would pull the sled 3 times a week, come season time he DESTROYED EVERYTHING IN HIS WAY, led the season in sacks and broke several kids ribs....Had another kid I trained started as a freshman at yale...I don't understand how you can doubt a program that has produced 2 or 3 1000 plus squatters, 800-900 lb deadlifters.....Think out of the box my man you will be a much better coach if you keep an open mind, stay awy from conventions and training magazines..look at those gus do they look like they can lift heavy.

 

[pwr_machine]

I'm glad I know my ass from a hole in the ground.