Why I don't believe in God. Those who believe, please help me understand...

[uNOwho]

BBV:

This is an observation that I just realized. It sounds to me like you are really questioning the rationale that is fate. If Fate and destiny have a plan, is that God's plan? I may be off base here, but it seems to me that all your questions, no matter how many times you repeat them lol, all revolve around the same general theme. If there is a "plan" and it is God's "plan" then why are some destined for doom and some greatness.

If I am not off base, then what you need to question is if fate really does direct people's lives. And if so, why does fate bring such anguish upon some and not others. I have said this before, and I really do believe that God gives us the choices in life of where to go, aka free will. It is ultimately up to us to decide right from wrong. Now if you feel that God has the ultimate plan for our lives, then why is the blueprint so skewed for some. I don't know. Wish I did cause I would surely eliminate them from the big scheme of things. However, in every project there will be obstacles and problems that come about. It is how we deal with them and utilize them to get ahead the next time. (Can you tell I'm in the building industry? )

I believe in fate to an extent, however, I do not believe that fate is what ulitmately guides us through life. There may be a general guide for what our life should be like, but I don't feel that there is a line cut in stone that says how our lives are going to be.

In every road there are holes, in every hole there are stones, and in every stone there are minerals. Minerals are the very substance of life, so no matter how ugly they may look there is a beautiful and beneficial side to everything. It's how you choose to look at the stone, hole, or road that matters.

~p~

 

[Big Brother Val]

Yet another good post. Thanks.

It's not that you are off base... but you are at the same time.

I like how you worded what you said... it made sense.

And to me, if God does not have a plan, then I can't blame him for condemning his own children to suffer.

If it is in fact just Destiny... or that we control every aspect of our lives... and God just placed us on Earth to see how we'd do... then fine.

It's not just that I question his plan for some... I question why he is considered our father, and Christ as our brother... or what not... when he demands we believe in something we did not witness, did not hear, and have no proof of. You know Abraham Lincoln existed, as there were photographs, and things written by his own hand that still exist... even though none of us were alive to meet him.

Here's how I try to make sense of the whole thing:

See... when I had my children... I brought them into the world. I can't control what they do. I can't make them be good. I can hope, as I know God does, that they follow what is right, and do good things. There is no guarantee that it will happen. One of my boys may kill people... or worse. My daughter may die of a drug overdose after running away from home one day.

Now... I can't help them, unless they ask for it. I guess that's where praying comes in. And maybe I would give my children an answer that they wouldn't really understand, like God does.

And even if my children take a path where they suffer, it will hurt me greatly, but I cannot help them if they don't want help. I can't talk to them, if they won't listen.

That sorta makes sense.

On the other side:

I bring them into the world, and protect them with my life. NOTHING can harm them as long as I breathe. Granted, if someone takes them when I'm not there, I can't control that. However, if I was "all knowing" then I would know when and where it was happening, and be there to prevent it.

Now... my kids won't listen if they don't want to. But at least I am THERE for them. They can cry on my shoulder... and I speak to them IN ENGLISH... I will take them into my home any time, and support them, and feed them, and make sure they're okay.

God has so much more power than me... but chooses not to use it. For that, he cannot be called a father. Maybe a king who sends his troops off to die, but not a father.

 

[uNOwho]

Now... my kids won't listen if they don't want to. But at least I am THERE for them. They can cry on my shoulder... and I speak to them IN ENGLISH... I will take them into my home any time, and support them, and feed them, and make sure they're okay.

God has so much more power than me... but chooses not to use it. For that, he cannot be called a father. Maybe a king who sends his troops off to die, but not a father.

That right there is the answer to your question. God can do all He can, He can put all of life's choices in your face. However, if you are not ready to listen you won't. As with your children, you can teach them all about smoking, lifting, sex, drugs, murder, sports, love, and anything else in life; and if they aren't willing to listen are you going to call yourself a bad father?

For people without a religion, it is hard for you to understand the full meaning of the name, Father. For us it isn't about who protects who all the time or none of the time. It's not about who raised me, or who is alive and near me, or who shed's a tear for me. Father, is a term of (SHIT! I'm thinking of the word revere, but it just doesn't seem to fit. It goes along the same lines though, hope you can follow that.) and with that term is also the person, being, entity, thought that is our God. The Bible has many stories of which we learn lessons and of which we learn about life, and in each story there is Jesus the Son and God the Father. Father is really the name Jesus used to call his own Father, that all who came after adopted. Since we see ourselves as an image of God and God creating everyone in His own image, it is inherent that God would be considered our Father, our Salvation.

Like you say, God does not act like a father that you are. God may be no more than a thought in my mind, but like the post on existentialism says. What really is real? For those who don't believe in the Father and the religion, all of our terms of endearment and respect are equated to the meanings of today and not the meaning the religion uses. I say that because just as the word "bear" has several different meanings and uses in the English language, so do the words that traverse between religion and layman.

~p~

 

[buddy28]

This post proves why God *chose* to allow evil into the world, why evil is nessecary for Gods pleasure, and why human choice is restricted to submission to Gods will - or rebell and face the consequences, however just or unjust those consequences may be.

The following post is consistent with Christian Judeo theology taken from the Bible.

God, according to Biblical scripture, is all powerful, ever present, and all knowing.

In the beginging, God created heaven and angels. One angel, Lucifer, was given incrediable powers unsurpassed by all the other angels. He was named "the morning star"- Gods pride and joy of all the angels.

According to scripture, Lucifer allowed pride to enter his heart, and became jealous of the reverence God recieved from all other angels. He wanted to receive praise and have angels follow him. So Lucifer tempted Gods angels to rebell against God and join him. Some 3,000,000 angels followed Lucifer.

Then God created man. He made them male and female. Adam and eve, the first man and women, eventually sucommbed to the temptation of Satan, formerly Lucifer, who took the form of a serpant and tempted eve to eat of the fruit from which God had specifically instructed not to eat.

And so God cursed Adam and eve, the Devil, and the future entire human race to varying degrees of suffering for the disobediance of 2 humans.

Present day.

Why did this happen?

Some Christians would say that humans are to blame for all suffering, specifcally Adam and Eve. They are wrong. Humans are partly to blame, and God is partly to blame.

Why God?

God is all knowing. God knows what your going to be doing 10 years from now, to the exact hour, to the exact second. God forsaw the actions of the entire human race from start to finish prior to creation. God also knew all the actions, consequences, and final outcome of His entire creation, both angels, and humanity, before he even breathed them into existence.

What does this mean?

God knew Lucifer would turn to evil. But God didnt stop him.

God knew Satan (formerlly Lucifer) would tempt Adam and Eve. But God didnt stop him.

God knew Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit and therefore indirectly condemn the entire human race to varying degrees of suffering - WW 1, WW2, the holocost, racism, starvation, pestilence. But God didnt stop them.

Why would God not stop this?

Because God wants one thing: A race of sentient beings, that choose to worship Him out of freewill.

What does that mean?

Free will can only exist when two polar opposites are created, good and evil. Satan, either real or metaphorical, is the supplementary side to humans innate psychological disposition to concieve good acts. Its the evil side, that gives humans a choice......to do good, or to do evil.

Evil, and all the accompanying atrocities committed in human history, were foreseen, chosen, and allowed by God so that He could have a race of people that would follow Him.

Some Christians would say this is nonsense. Those Christians cant follow logic, or dont know their theology.

Its interesting, Old Testament scripture suggests that God is actually sorry he created humanity because of humans inherent predisposition to committ evil acts:

"The Lord saw how great mans wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The Lord was greived that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." Genisis 6:5-6

If God truly is *all-knowing*, then he knew without a shadow of a doubt that mankind would be inherently evil, thus, God knew mankind would be evil, yet created them anyway.

Why would God create humans if it caused him pain, and caused humans pain??

Simple cost benefit anaylsis. The pleasure God derives from having a handfull, perhaps 1%< of total cummulative human population, that follow him, serve him, and worship him out of free will, outweighs the suffering, madness, torture, abuse, killings, and rapings endured throughout all of human history, in addition to the suffering of billions of souls that will be condemned to eternal torture forever.

Gods pleasure + 1%< of cummulative human population pleasure in heaven ----- outweighs -------- all human kind suffering on earth + eternal suffering and torture of billions of humans in hell, forever.


If God really cared about humans, why would he subject billions of humans to enternal torture in hell? Why couldnt God, just as Val said, create only those believers that he knew would follow him before creation, thus averting the needless suffering of humans on earth and those condemed to eternal torment:

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love, he predestined us to become adopted as sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance to his good pleasure and will." Ephesisans 1:4-5

Simply because God feels billions of unbeleivers lives are expendable in enternal torture, and the unimaginable human suffering on this earth is unsurpassed by the pleasure God and the select few will have in heaven.

What can be done about this?

Nothing. All the yelling and screaming and namecalling at God will do nothing. Ive tried. God hasnt answered back yet. All you can do is save yourself. Try to be good and help others, and save yourself. However, there are indications that God really does care about humans: the life and suffering of Christ. Regardless, God, in a sense, stepped in it. He knew he'd be pounding his hand with the hammer of human suffering, yet did it anyway. For more suffering? No. For pleasure. His eventual pleasure, and his followers eventual pleasure, is the only logical conclusion. Gods selected punishment of enternal torment for unbelievers further supports his indifference towards people that reject him. The only logical conclusion is that current human existence was allowed to benefit God and "saved" Christians.

God isnt going to change the rules, and there will be tons of Christians who'll try to sell you their benevolent version of the Christian God, but these are the irrefutable facts:

1) God, being omiscent, knew beforehand, all the suffering that woud ever occur, on earth, and eternally in hell, prior to creation
2) God allowed it anyway so he could have a handfull of loyal followers who worship him out of free will.

And why dont alot of Christians understand this, or beleive this?

1) Any beleiver, looks for confirming evidence that supports their own beleifs. Seeking out confirming evidence is the underlying psychological mechanism that supports faith. Beleivers have a natural propensity to look for confirming evidence that God is good because of the univerisal human psychological phenomonon, cognitive dissoance. Cognitive dissoance theroy states that humans try to reduce intellectual inconsistences that cause cognitive discomfort created by holding two or more views that contridict each other....ex God has created and allowed evil, yet I beleive him to be good. Cognitive dissonance then guides beleviers to reject, refute, or ignore objective evidence that undermines their existing beleifs about God.
So Christians look for evidence that supports their beleif that God is good, thus reinforcing their faith, and reject evidence, however logical and objective, that refutes Gods goodness - which may undermine their faith. God has deemed faith as the most virtuious quality beleivers can cultivate, thus by not having faith, people arnt "good" Christians, according to God.

2) Questioning Gods nature, jepordizes a Christians ticket on the gravey train to heaven. Question God, you may not get to heaven, and more than that, you may burn forever in hell!!

 

[Crazier]

Damn Buddy... I couldn't read that post fast enough... What an awesome read. Thanks for posting that, great read.
--

 

[buddy28]

thanks dude. It took me awhile to figure it out with all the Christian redrick in the Church these days.....

I dont like talking about it, because it makes me anxious, but it needs to be said and realised. I doubt there is any Christian, ever, that could refute what i wrote. Not because its mine, but because its the truth; its consistent with scripture, Gods will, and human psychology.

 

[buddy28]

as a disclaimer.....I can only take that side when Im mad at God and suffering.

Im not suggesting anyone take that knowledge and say to hell with God. Not because what I wrote is not true, but because I fear God .

 

[uNOwho]

Hey buddy, I have to ask you this. Are you Christian and use Christian as in the religion Christian, or are you of another faith and use Christian to stand for Catholocism as well?

There are some points I don't agree with you on, but I know from experience that the Christians in West Michigan are on that same track 110%.

~p~

 

[HumorMe]

Hey buddy28.........nice copy and paste job you did there! I can't believe you would take credit for that!

j/k man


That has to be one of the best post I have read yet! I wish I was able to write words that flowed like that! If you read my posts on this thread, I think you will find that they line up pretty good with what you said.

I wrote it first so stop copy my work!!!!!! (j/k again! )

Sorry, just trying to keep it lighthearted!

In no way would I refute what you posted! Thanks for sharing that work of art!

 

[strongchick]

religion. useful for controlling the masses for political ends.

When I die, everything will go black. Nothing more.