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Why I don't believe in God. Those who believe, please help me understand...

Big Brother Val

Big Brother Val

New member
Children.

We are all God's "children".

Isn't that what we're told? That he is our "eternal Father"? Our "Father who art in Heaven"?

Am I wrong?

So let me ask you this...

Why is it that if something wonderful in life happens, it's God's will, yet... if something terrible happens, then God works in mysterious ways? (watch End of Days... they make a good point on this)

He's covered no matter what happens.

Why is it that some prayers are "answered"... while others go unnoticed?

Why is it that if my daughter pulls through and lives after being born at 1 lb. 4 oz, it's because God intended her to live.... but if there's a two year old girl who gets raped and then beaten to death... then it's not God's doing... but it's a consequence of "free agency", or what not... that we all make decisions?

Why is there a child at this very moment, locked in a closet with no food, no water, no clothes... wondering when the next time the door will open for his next beating?

But that's okay... because "God has a plan for all of us." right?

Why do people pray? Does something come of it?

No.

And if some prayers are answered, why not all of them? How can our "Father" be selective on who he answers, and who he does not?

A 3 year old girl was kidnapped about 10 miles from where I live... she was murdered, and dumped on the side of a road. I can guaran-fucking-tee that her mama was praying on a daily basis.. they are a mormon family... and yet... did that little girl come home safely?

No.

Was she scared? Hurt? Killed?

Yes.

Yet... my daughter pulls through... and it was "God's will."

Huh?

Did I miss something here?

They say God loves us more than we will ever comprehend... that this life is like the blink of an eye to him...

So when we suffer... he suffers.

So what the fuck was the point of putting us here?

I can tell you one thing... I love my children more than anything I have ever known... so does that mean I have to let them be stabbed to death, or starve, or freeze to death to prove I love them? To show them they're on their own... and if someone kills them, well... don't worry about it because that person will pay in the end?

Children are suffering. God's children are suffering. And his back is turned.

Is that a "father"?

Do you think I'd EVER let my kids be hurt, knowing I could stop it, but letting it happen anyway, because that's a consequence of life? Or that was my PLAN for them?

Sorry... but if that's God's plan for ANYONE... then I look forward to meeting him in the Parking Lot after I punch out on the clock of life.

A real "father"... a loving "father", would NEVER do that to their children.

Back in the day he'd command people to do things, he'd part the sea, he gave his son who walked on water to die for us...

He just can't seem to do that anymore... maybe it's because we could catch him on video, and actually PROVE he exists.. rather than rely on "faith" and reading the great fiction novel known as the "Bible".

Those who believe, please give me some sort of insight here.... and I wasn't trying to piss anyone off.
 
i go to catholic mass on christmas because it's tradition and i make fun of the synthesizer...

and it makes the parents happy for a short time.
 
my own personal outlook on it is we were given the sentience and a world where we can do with it as we please. As a result theres a capacity for good or evil in all of us but at the end of it all we will all be judged on the basis of our actions in this life.

almost as if this existence is to test our worth as a being, where god is really nothing more than an observer who may pitch in every once in a while if an asteroid comes nearby or something, and on the basis of the good and bad things we do in our life we can do something (i dont know whether to truly believe in re-incarnation, or heaven/hell or if there is an existence after this one)

either way my view point is KINDA similar to the one my religon has so its all good :)
 
Will this make me a believer, Scrappy?
I will truly read it, if it will enlighten me.


HappyScrappy said:
read "A Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan.
my usual reply to these...
Click to expand...
 
danielson said:
my own personal outlook on it is we were given the sentience and a world where we can do with it as we please. As a result theres a capacity for good or evil in all of us but at the end of it all we will all be judged on the basis of our actions in this life.

almost as if this existence is to test our worth as a being, where god is really nothing more than an observer who may pitch in every once in a while if an asteroid comes nearby or something, and on the basis of the good and bad things we do in our life we can do something (i dont know whether to truly believe in re-incarnation, or heaven/hell or if there is an existence after this one)

either way my view point is KINDA similar to the one my religon has so its all good :)
Click to expand...


But doesn't God have a "plan" for us all?

So what the general rule is, we're all put down here, get to interact with eachother... murder children, or love them... do good things or bad... and based off of this, we'll get to go to Heaven or hell, right?

Well... what's the point of putting your children through hell, just to send other people there? Just so you can find out which of your children will do good, and who will do evil, just so you can cast your own children who were put in an unfair "test" into eternal damnation?

Why not just let us all live in peace to begin with? I think God knows which of us will do good, and which of us will not.

Didn't Jesus die for all of our sins before we even committed them?

Why test us, if he knows already which ones of us will pass, and which ones of us will not?
 
frorider6 said:
My thread on this topic...

Why do people thank God for good things, but not blame him for bad things?

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85698


As for the book. Well, it's a good book, very analytical. But I don't remember much about it, it's been a while. Maybe I'll re-read it after the holidays.
Click to expand...


fro - I enjoyed that thread - anytime we get threads where it encourages discussion I'm psyched... although I don't think I added anything useful to it :)

a demon haunted world generally speaks of human psychology and the human psyche - and then how it relates to things around us. the difference between science and religion, or science and the various "out there" things like psychics, faith healers, etc etc.

but the general premise that I hold, and is also what he seems to in that book, is that we, as a people, need to feel that our lives have a purpose, that we are validated in some way. you need to find some way to fufill that need, and perhaps explain things to you as well - and for some, that is where religion fits. for others, it is something else.
 
MommaKin said:
Will this make me a believer, Scrappy?
I will truly read it, if it will enlighten me.


Click to expand...


a believer? lol - that is up to you.
but the book helps point out what is there, and how to rationally look at it. it explains different points of views, and how to logically look at them.

what you take from that is your call - but it is an excellent book.

if you want something to sway you one way or the other though, I'm pretty sure you will have to look elsewhere.

it is a very easy read, and IMO thought provoking.
 
HappyScrappy said:



a believer? lol - that is up to you.
but the book helps point out what is there, and how to rationally look at it. it explains different points of views, and how to logically look at them.

what you take from that is your call - but it is an excellent book.

if you want something to sway you one way or the other though, I'm pretty sure you will have to look elsewhere.

it is a very easy read, and IMO thought provoking.
Click to expand...


Sounds very interesting.

I don't want something to sway me in either direction... I just want something that at least tries to make sense of all the shit, whithout spitting out some church-based arguement about religion.

I don't wanna know about a church... I wanna know about the man who calls us his children, yet refuses to put a bandaid on our knee when we fall down.
 
Big Brother Val said:



But doesn't God have a "plan" for us all?

So what the general rule is, we're all put down here, get to interact with eachother... murder children, or love them... do good things or bad... and based off of this, we'll get to go to Heaven or hell, right?

Well... what's the point of putting your children through hell, just to send other people there? Just so you can find out which of your children will do good, and who will do evil, just so you can cast your own children who were put in an unfair "test" into eternal damnation?

Why not just let us all live in peace to begin with? I think God knows which of us will do good, and which of us will not.

Didn't Jesus die for all of our sins before we even committed them?

Why test us, if he knows already which ones of us will pass, and which ones of us will not?
Click to expand...

hmmm tough question about the children

i'd just say its because the universe is like a world where we reside in and it recieve no other outside interference. it has physical laws which govern it and our existence

as such a father can beat his child within that world. just like all the others who die (babies in plane crashes etc) but if people can try to help the childget through his torment and stop it, it will benefit them all in the long run. some questions do kinda throw a spaner in the works as i can see how the father being evil may influence the child, but if the child grows up seeing what the father has done as to be truly reprehensible and grows from it, he will be a much better person for it

as for jesus dying for our sins etc, im not christian
 
hehe....I'm not looking to become a believer.....and, knowing me like I do, it would take alot more then a book to do that.....
it sounds interesting..I'm intrigued...I look it up and then decide if I'll buy it and read it...
Thanks for the tip :)


HappyScrappy said:



a believer? lol - that is up to you.
but the book helps point out what is there, and how to rationally look at it. it explains different points of views, and how to logically look at them.

what you take from that is your call - but it is an excellent book.

if you want something to sway you one way or the other though, I'm pretty sure you will have to look elsewhere.

it is a very easy read, and IMO thought provoking.
Click to expand...
 
God is mysterious. The fact that you question Him reveals your arrogance. The ways in which he works are so far superior to anything we can comprehend that you just must trust in him, and that everything happens for a reason.

Just kidding. Your post reflects my own thoughts to a tee. Let me know when you figure out why so many people concur with the Christian belief system, because I haven't yet.
 
lol...you had me going there for a min.



casavant said:
God is mysterious. The fact that you question Him reveals your arrogance. The ways in which he works are so far superior to anything we can comprehend that you just must trust in him, and that everything happens for a reason.
Click to expand...
 
danielson said:


hmmm tough question about the children

i'd just say its because the universe is like a world where we reside in and it recieve no other outside interference. it has physical laws which govern it and our existence

as such a father can beat his child within that world. just like all the others who die (babies in plane crashes etc) but if people can try to help the childget through his torment and stop it, it will benefit them all in the long run. some questions do kinda throw a spaner in the works as i can see how the father being evil may influence the child, but if the child grows up seeing what the father has done as to be truly reprehensible and grows from it, he will be a much better person for it

as for jesus dying for our sins etc, im not christian
Click to expand...


I agree... that's my point. Some say that God does answer prayers at times... and pulling people through seemingly impossible situations are "acts of God"... and so on... yet when people suffer we just have to swallow shit, because he doesn't interfere.

If he doesn't interfere, why do people pray? Why ask for help that he will NEVER give?
 
Val -

Good questions.

Here are 5 undeniable truths that Christians can never refute:

1) Good things happen as a result of human free agency
2) Bad things happen as a result of human free agency
3) God does not intefre, *most of the time*, with humans right to choose, thus God allows both great acts, and terriable acts to occur
4) God allows some people to be born with parents, biological disorders, or incrediable social stigmas which cause undue suffering in an individuals life. This is in contrast with #3, where the causal agent of suffering is human. In this instance, God does cause suffering, either directly or indirectly. Technically, being born into dysfunctional families is the result of both #3 & #4.
5) God sometimes intervenes in the physical world. Its impossible to know how much and what frequency he does, but by the current state of the world, personally, I dont think its alot.

The Christians God "challenge" to us, if you could say that, is to understand the 5 points mentioned above, not just theoritically, but experientially (the hard part), and come to an understanding and acceptance or our place in relation to God.
 
Last edited:
casavant said:
God is mysterious. The fact that you question Him reveals your arrogance. The ways in which he works are so far superior to anything we can comprehend that you just must trust in him, and that everything happens for a reason.

Just kidding. Your post reflects my own thoughts to a tee. Let me know when you figure out why so many people concur with the Christian belief system, because I haven't yet.
Click to expand...


:FRlol: That first paragraph had me thinking "What the fuck?"... but at the same time, I thought someone by now would have that sort of attitude towards my post.

I'm just trying to sort things out.

We say fathers who neglect their children are "deadbeats" Or "sperm donors"... yet we praise God for neglecting his children, and go to buildings to sing to him....

I just don't get it.
 
Well if there is a god and he is suposedly the father of the children(us) well he is one hell of a deadbeat parent. Quick to take credit for the good shit and quick to blame others for the bad shit.

Do I think there is some kind of higher being/ force/power ?
Yep and whether that is a god or Marvin the Martian well I try not to undertstand.
 
Big Brother Val said:



I agree... that's my point. Some say that God does answer prayers at times... and pulling people through seemingly impossible situations are "acts of God"... and so on... yet when people suffer we just have to swallow shit, because he doesn't interfere.

If he doesn't interfere, why do people pray? Why ask for help that he will NEVER give?
Click to expand...

hope....mental reassurance....that he might intervene or make things go your way. thats for people praying for a certain thing, and IMHO its good.

but those that pray yet act badly in life (i.e. the guy that impregnates girls then does a runner or the asshole who prays every week) by my reasoning wont be able to wash off those sins by praying, praying wont help his kharma at all IMHO. thats why things such as confessions have always intrigued me
 
BigBrotherVal, that is a hard question to answer. The first reason being is that you are generalizing the matter. You have to take a lot of things into consideration. Do these people really live by God, and know God's ways. It is difficult to interpret where God comes into play and we can't positively be sure about HIs actions. I guess when we die we may be able to ask Him. I know this is kind of unclear but let me use 9/11 as an example. Many people say that God allowed it to happen to cause a revival and awaken us to depend on him. You could take that as our whole nation is moving further and further away from God, so He had to do something to get us back in a relationship with Him. On the other hand, some may say that God did not let this happen and that the devil was at work with these terrorists. It is really difficult to tell which view we should believe and that is why some may say the Lord works in mysterious ways. I do believe that the more you spend time in His word and learn His ways it becomes a little easier to possibly interpret was is His will. I have been around Christians who like to selectively say that God did this for them but when something bad happened it was not God's fault. I think this is wrong and you just need to understand that God has His plan and we don't necessarily know what it is but we must have faith in it and know that He is much greater than us. He is beyond our finite minds and we will never fully understand everything about Him. I hope some of this blabbering has helped.
 
you guys are alljust waiting for him to return and raise all hell. Typical calming before the storm. We will all get caught at an unexpected moment. Are you prepared?? Will you go to heaven when this time comes? You all shall see.
 
god is a concept man invented to help answer unanswerable questions. everyone believes god is on their side; god loves them; they are made in gods image.

i believe their is a power or "god" beyond our world that we cannot even attempt to fathom.

how can we use the ideas, languages, and books of our limited world to understand something far beyond us?

the more we contemplate, study, and practice the different religions, which are all bound by the restraints of our world, the further away from the fact, that nobody knows what happens after you die, we get.

all that our deluded, elaborate, belief systems accomplish is the brutal, deadly conflict going on today....

...at least thats what i think.
 
Val

Dude's post is the same view I have on God and his plan for everybody. Generalizing God's actions is the #1 fault alot of people fall into. God's grace and actions cannot be blanketed on everybody's problems. When we are born we are considered sinners. Although it is virtually impossible to imagine an infant as being a sinner, I believe this to be true. Infants and children are innocent to say the least but they cannot comprehend God's love and grace. IMO, until a person is exposed to the Word of God, that person will not experience what it is like to be loved by God. We live in a very violent society and bad things happen every hour of each day. These bad things will happen regardless of your religious views. Good things do come from bad events. I have experienced this so many times in my life. Even though these bad things have happened, it still hasn't swayed my belief in God. In fact, it has made me stronger. I've also seen something bad will happen to a particular family and that family uses that event to witness to others about their belief in God and how it got them through a terrible ordeal. Too many people blame God for their own misfortunes therefore banning God from their lives and eternal damnation. I feel strongly about my belief in God and it has helped me cope when things don't go my way. Terrible events in people's lives will do one of two things. They will either turn to God for understanding and perserverance or they will reject Him and try and cope the best way they can. We make a conscious choice whether to believe in God or not. Doing good things all of your life while not believing in God will not get you saved and a place in heaven. So many people believe in so many different things that I will probably get flamed for that statement but it's what I believe in. I cannot make people believe in God but I can tell them about God and they can make their own choices. Will believing in God stop the violent acts and hardships for you and other people? No, it will not. We cannot control what other people do to us or others. As I rear my two daughters, it is my responsiblity as a Christian father to expose them to the love and grace of God. I hope they will accept Him and follow His word and become loving parents as pass it down to their kids. If they do not accept Him and follow His word then that is a conscious choice they will make. Will it bother me? Yes it will until the day I die but hopefully as they get older they will see a need to have God in their lives and revert to what they were taught earlier by me and my wife.
Here is another thought.....Let's say you believe in God and live your life accordingly and then you die. What if when you die...you go nowhere and God was a myth as well as heaven? What have you truly lost in the long run?
 
buddy28 said:
Val -

Good questions.

Here are 5 undeniable truths that Christians can never refute:

1) Good things happen as a result of human free agency
2) Bad things happen as a result of human free agency
3) God does not intefre, *most of the time*, with humans right to choose, thus God allows both great acts, and terriable acts to occur
4) God allows some people to be born with parents, biological disorders, or incrediable social stigmas which cause undue suffering in an individuals life. This is in contrast with #3, where the causal agent of suffering is human. In this instance, God does cause suffering, either directly or indirectly. Technically, being born into dysfunctional families is the result of both #3 & #4.
5) God sometimes intervenes in the physical world. Its impossible to know how much and what frequency he does, but by the current state of the world, personally, I dont think its alot.

The Christians God "challenge" to us, if you could say that, is to understand the 5 points mentioned above, not just theoritically, but experientially (the hard part), and come to an understanding and acceptance or our place in relation to God.
Click to expand...



I see the points you are making... I guess I just don't understand why he will "sometimes" intervene, or what not. I know he has a plan or whatever... but come on... what the hell kind of plan is it for an infant to be born, and thrown into a dumpster?

Or a 1 year old boy to have his ribs smashed in by his father?

Where was the plan here?

Where does that fit in?

I know it's impossible to fathom his greatness, and all of that. Hell... he's GOD.

But I sure can't say he's a father, because I am... and I would NEVER put my children through that.
 
Milhouse said:
Well if there is a god and he is suposedly the father of the children(us) well he is one hell of a deadbeat parent. Quick to take credit for the good shit and quick to blame others for the bad shit.

Do I think there is some kind of higher being/ force/power ?
Yep and whether that is a god or Marvin the Martian well I try not to undertstand.
Click to expand...



That's how I am. I do believe there is SOMETHING out there.... I just can't view whatever the hell it is as a FATHER. As I said above... I am a father... and I sure as shit wouldn't make my kids suffer, just to see if they'd sing songs to me, in spite of the fact that they're freezing to death, or can't eat.
 
danielson said:


hope....mental reassurance....that he might intervene or make things go your way. thats for people praying for a certain thing, and IMHO its good.

but those that pray yet act badly in life (i.e. the guy that impregnates girls then does a runner or the asshole who prays every week) by my reasoning wont be able to wash off those sins by praying, praying wont help his kharma at all IMHO. thats why things such as confessions have always intrigued me
Click to expand...

I understand people pray to basically make themselves feel better... I'm just wondering about the people who say God DOES answer prayers... he does grant MIRACLES... and he does save his children when it is "not their time"....

So basically, if you pray and you get what you pray for (like your kid getting better after being VERY sick), then it's just a matter of convenience? Because even if you didn't pray, he'd still pull the kid out because it was his plan for the child, right?
 
dude said:
BigBrotherVal, that is a hard question to answer. The first reason being is that you are generalizing the matter. You have to take a lot of things into consideration. Do these people really live by God, and know God's ways. It is difficult to interpret where God comes into play and we can't positively be sure about HIs actions. I guess when we die we may be able to ask Him. I know this is kind of unclear but let me use 9/11 as an example. Many people say that God allowed it to happen to cause a revival and awaken us to depend on him. You could take that as our whole nation is moving further and further away from God, so He had to do something to get us back in a relationship with Him. On the other hand, some may say that God did not let this happen and that the devil was at work with these terrorists. It is really difficult to tell which view we should believe and that is why some may say the Lord works in mysterious ways. I do believe that the more you spend time in His word and learn His ways it becomes a little easier to possibly interpret was is His will. I have been around Christians who like to selectively say that God did this for them but when something bad happened it was not God's fault. I think this is wrong and you just need to understand that God has His plan and we don't necessarily know what it is but we must have faith in it and know that He is much greater than us. He is beyond our finite minds and we will never fully understand everything about Him. I hope some of this blabbering has helped.
Click to expand...



I guess I just can't grasp the concept about him having a plan and what not for all of us. Is a plan like a blueprint? Like he already has our lives mapped out, and we just follow that? Or is it more like what he wants us to do, and we decide if we follow it or not?

I have a hard time with the whole bit that if a child is abused or killed, that it was that child's plan in life, or that they had more important work to do in heaven, or whatever it is that people say.

I'm not trying to generalize anything... I know I don't know a lot about it... but what I do know is that I love my children so much, it's beyond my own comprehension... and it breaks my heart for children who suffer ANYWHERE... yet God comes out and lets these children suffer, because he can't intervene... well WHY THE HELL PUT A KID DOWN HERE WHO IS BEATEN FOR 2 MONTHS, AND THEN DIES ANYWAY!?!?!

I'm not lashing at you... I hope you understand this. I appreciate you taking the time... but what kind of a "father" would do this to his children, just to test them?
 
BuggyWhips said:
you guys are alljust waiting for him to return and raise all hell. Typical calming before the storm. We will all get caught at an unexpected moment. Are you prepared?? Will you go to heaven when this time comes? You all shall see.
Click to expand...


God has a lot of explaining to do before I know if I want to get into heaven with him or not.

Sounds like a "members only" club to me. Follow the rules of the club, you're in... if not... you gotta go elsewhere.
 
Immortal Juicer said:
god is a concept man invented to help answer unanswerable questions. everyone believes god is on their side; god loves them; they are made in gods image.

i believe their is a power or "god" beyond our world that we cannot even attempt to fathom.

how can we use the ideas, languages, and books of our limited world to understand something far beyond us?

the more we contemplate, study, and practice the different religions, which are all bound by the restraints of our world, the further away from the fact, that nobody knows what happens after you die, we get.

all that our deluded, elaborate, belief systems accomplish is the brutal, deadly conflict going on today....

...at least thats what i think.
Click to expand...



You're right... I can't comprehend it... I can't fathom it... I can't understand it... hell... I can't really even believe it.

Is there some invisible guy that lives in the clouds that calls us all children, yet wouldn't piss on us if we were on fire? I don't really know.

Is there a power out there... there has to be, in my opinion. I can't imagine there isn't... but to call whatever it is "father", is like when you see on a cartoon the baby turtle come out of it's egg, and call the first thing it sees "mommy".
 
HumorMe said:
Val

Dude's post is the same view I have on God and his plan for everybody. Generalizing God's actions is the #1 fault alot of people fall into. God's grace and actions cannot be blanketed on everybody's problems. When we are born we are considered sinners. Although it is virtually impossible to imagine an infant as being a sinner, I believe this to be true. Infants and children are innocent to say the least but they cannot comprehend God's love and grace. IMO, until a person is exposed to the Word of God, that person will not experience what it is like to be loved by God. We live in a very violent society and bad things happen every hour of each day. These bad things will happen regardless of your religious views. Good things do come from bad events. I have experienced this so many times in my life. Even though these bad things have happened, it still hasn't swayed my belief in God. In fact, it has made me stronger. I've also seen something bad will happen to a particular family and that family uses that event to witness to others about their belief in God and how it got them through a terrible ordeal. Too many people blame God for their own misfortunes therefore banning God from their lives and eternal damnation. I feel strongly about my belief in God and it has helped me cope when things don't go my way. Terrible events in people's lives will do one of two things. They will either turn to God for understanding and perserverance or they will reject Him and try and cope the best way they can. We make a conscious choice whether to believe in God or not. Doing good things all of your life while not believing in God will not get you saved and a place in heaven. So many people believe in so many different things that I will probably get flamed for that statement but it's what I believe in. I cannot make people believe in God but I can tell them about God and they can make their own choices. Will believing in God stop the violent acts and hardships for you and other people? No, it will not. We cannot control what other people do to us or others. As I rear my two daughters, it is my responsiblity as a Christian father to expose them to the love and grace of God. I hope they will accept Him and follow His word and become loving parents as pass it down to their kids. If they do not accept Him and follow His word then that is a conscious choice they will make. Will it bother me? Yes it will until the day I die but hopefully as they get older they will see a need to have God in their lives and revert to what they were taught earlier by me and my wife.
Here is another thought.....Let's say you believe in God and live your life accordingly and then you die. What if when you die...you go nowhere and God was a myth as well as heaven? What have you truly lost in the long run?
Click to expand...


I understand we all have the power to choose what we do. That's just what life is.

But what is the point of praying, and believing, and following his word, if it doesn't do a damn bit of good.

So here's a test: My kid is taken from me, stabbed to death, and thrown on the side of the road. I end up hating everyone, I stop believing in God essentially, and stay bitter until I die. Then I get to go to hell, because I didn't pass his test... where other people are born into wealthy families, never struggle, have nothing better to do, so they believe in God, and go to church... they go to Heaven, because they passed THEIR test?

What the hell is that?

Why would God put a child down here who is beaten to death his first year of life?

Why would a "father" let a man put a spaceheater down on his childs head, until the kid was dead?

Is that a "father"?

Hell no.

God is like a king, right? That's a better description. He's a king who sends his troops off to die. That's what God has done to us.

So why would I pray to a guy who doesn't give a rats ass about his own children?
Why test them in such a way?

He will explain this to me... or lose me as his "child", as I will disassociate myself from him.
 
Big Brother Val said:




I guess I just can't grasp the concept about him having a plan and what not for all of us. Is a plan like a blueprint? Like he already has our lives mapped out, and we just follow that? Or is it more like what he wants us to do, and we decide if we follow it or not?

I have a hard time with the whole bit that if a child is abused or killed, that it was that child's plan in life, or that they had more important work to do in heaven, or whatever it is that people say.

I'm not trying to generalize anything... I know I don't know a lot about it... but what I do know is that I love my children so much, it's beyond my own comprehension... and it breaks my heart for children who suffer ANYWHERE... yet God comes out and lets these children suffer, because he can't intervene... well WHY THE HELL PUT A KID DOWN HERE WHO IS BEATEN FOR 2 MONTHS, AND THEN DIES ANYWAY!?!?!

I'm not lashing at you... I hope you understand this. I appreciate you taking the time... but what kind of a "father" would do this to his children, just to test them?
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The plan that I am talking about is not like a preset plan. He directs us to certain things and places at certain times in our life. This is one reason that you see some missionaries going over to Afghanistan right now. They feel that God wants them to go over there and share their faith. Could they be wrong? Sure, but they are going by what they think His will is. As far as a child being abused or killed. I think that is a deeper question. I believe that sometimes if the parents sin then the child will suffer from it. For instance, if two people decide to have a child out of wedlock then I think it is possible for the child to be punished in some way for their actions. Like if the parents split up and then the child is stuck with only one parent or maybe it gets abandoned. Also, from what I understand, if you want God to work in your life then you have to accept Him as your Lord and Savior and take Him into your life. I don't believe He can work in people's lives if they do not allow Him to. God may let people suffer for certain reasons but I don't think that he will let them suffer throughout their whole life. It may be a time when they disobeyed God or when He is trying to make a point. All in all, He is just and will do what is right. I totally understand that you are not trying to lash out. You have questions as does everyone. I believe in God but I have many questions about Him that may never get answered in my lifetime, but how would I be human if I didn't ask them. I don't claim to know all these answers, rather these are my interpretations on the matter at hand.
 
Big Brother Val said:




I see the points you are making... I guess I just don't understand why he will "sometimes" intervene, or what not. I know he has a plan or whatever... but come on... what the hell kind of plan is it for an infant to be born, and thrown into a dumpster?

Or a 1 year old boy to have his ribs smashed in by his father?

Where was the plan here?

Where does that fit in?

I know it's impossible to fathom his greatness, and all of that. Hell... he's GOD.

But I sure can't say he's a father, because I am... and I would NEVER put my children through that.
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I completley understand and I agree. Those are all good points where God *choose* to entrust 2 individuals with an infants life, knowing beforehand, those two people would hurt or kill the baby. Of course those parents had a choice to abuse the child, but so did God in allowing a child to be born to abusive parents.

I dont really have any answers for you man. I dont understand why God does what he does, and I understand your anger at HIm for allowing these terrible things to happpen. Im glad your looking at it from a rational perspective though. Some people never question Gods goodness, because they dont beleive that God is responsible "evil". These people dont know what their talking about, and are more concerned about maintaining their own comfortable conception of God, then discovering the truth - however difficult that may be.
 
Why did God create beings who's main purpose in life is supposed to be to worship and "serve" him? Does he need our validation that badly?

Even though God is supposedly beyond our full comprehension, we still have to try to grasp him and his ways in some way that is slightly human, since that's the only existence we know. If he truly wanted us to worship and love him, why didn't he give us more capacity to understand him? Oh, wait, I'm trying to understand God based on human logic- what a fruitless endeavor (sarcasm intended).

You know, most of us can't truly understand the motive behind Jeffrey Dahmer's heinous acts of rape, torture, murder, and cannibalism, yet we don't excuse his actions based on this. Why act differently towards God? He isn't truly a God unless you make him that, anymore than some freak with a gun to your head in complete control of your future is a god. If "might doesn't make right", than why is God always right? It seems completely arbitrary to me.
 
casavant said:


You know, most of us can't truly understand the motive behind Jeffrey Dahmer's heinous acts of rape, torture, murder, and cannibalism, yet we don't excuse his actions based on this. Why act differently towards God? He isn't truly a God unless you make him that, anymore than some freak with a gun to your head in complete control of your future is a god. If "might doesn't make right", than why is God always right? It seems completely arbitrary to me.
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Its true. God Himself outlines moral laws for humans to prescribe to. However, sometimes he doesnt follow those laws. He tells us to be kind and loving and good to others, and lets some individuals, like Val has pointed out, be born to parents who beat and abuse them, or gives them debilihiting psychatric disorders that ostrasize them from society and undermines their emotional wellbeing.

Its difficult. But God seems to work in the longterm. We can be pissed at God for 20 years, and later in our lives, we can find him. It is a journey.
 
casavant said:
Why did God create beings who's main purpose in life is supposed to be to worship and "serve" him? Does he need our validation that badly?

Even though God is supposedly beyond our full comprehension, we still have to try to grasp him and his ways in some way that is slightly human, since that's the only existence we know. If he truly wanted us to worship and love him, why didn't he give us more capacity to understand him? Oh, wait, I'm trying to understand God based on human logic- what a fruitless endeavor (sarcasm intended).

You know, most of us can't truly understand the motive behind Jeffrey Dahmer's heinous acts of rape, torture, murder, and cannibalism, yet we don't excuse his actions based on this. Why act differently towards God? He isn't truly a God unless you make him that, anymore than some freak with a gun to your head in complete control of your future is a god. If "might doesn't make right", than why is God always right? It seems completely arbitrary to me.
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God first created man as a companion. I serve Him because I am thankful for the many talents He has given me, lessons He has taught me, my life, and for the blessings He has given to me. Just because you don't understand Him does not mean that you should not believe in Him. If someone told me what a gun was and described it to me yet I had never seen one before, I would not automatically just say that there is no such thing as a gun. That is why believing in God is based on faith. You have to put some sort of trust in Him.
 
dude said:


The plan that I am talking about is not like a preset plan. He directs us to certain things and places at certain times in our life. This is one reason that you see some missionaries going over to Afghanistan right now. They feel that God wants them to go over there and share their faith. Could they be wrong? Sure, but they are going by what they think His will is. As far as a child being abused or killed. I think that is a deeper question. I believe that sometimes if the parents sin then the child will suffer from it. For instance, if two people decide to have a child out of wedlock then I think it is possible for the child to be punished in some way for their actions. Like if the parents split up and then the child is stuck with only one parent or maybe it gets abandoned. Also, from what I understand, if you want God to work in your life then you have to accept Him as your Lord and Savior and take Him into your life. I don't believe He can work in people's lives if they do not allow Him to. God may let people suffer for certain reasons but I don't think that he will let them suffer throughout their whole life. It may be a time when they disobeyed God or when He is trying to make a point. All in all, He is just and will do what is right. I totally understand that you are not trying to lash out. You have questions as does everyone. I believe in God but I have many questions about Him that may never get answered in my lifetime, but how would I be human if I didn't ask them. I don't claim to know all these answers, rather these are my interpretations on the matter at hand.
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I appreciate you taking the time to respond... this stuff is very confusing to me.

It's not that I want to find God in my life... it's that I can't understand why he allows children to be hurt. Even if I have God in my life, I'll still not understand why he allows children to be hurt.

A 6 month old baby can't ask God for mercy, because his parents won't have any. He can't pray... he can't accept God... he simply suffers until his death.

Now... there's no point in any bible that can be made to the kid, as he can't read. There's no praying he can do, because he can't speak... there's no mercy for the child, because God doesn't have any.

I just can't accept a God who's supposed to be our father... yet is the most neglectful parent of all time.
 
casavant said:
Why did God create beings who's main purpose in life is supposed to be to worship and "serve" him? Does he need our validation that badly?

Even though God is supposedly beyond our full comprehension, we still have to try to grasp him and his ways in some way that is slightly human, since that's the only existence we know. If he truly wanted us to worship and love him, why didn't he give us more capacity to understand him? Oh, wait, I'm trying to understand God based on human logic- what a fruitless endeavor (sarcasm intended).

You know, most of us can't truly understand the motive behind Jeffrey Dahmer's heinous acts of rape, torture, murder, and cannibalism, yet we don't excuse his actions based on this. Why act differently towards God? He isn't truly a God unless you make him that, anymore than some freak with a gun to your head in complete control of your future is a god. If "might doesn't make right", than why is God always right? It seems completely arbitrary to me.
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You're on the same mental track as me on this. Thanks for your input.
 
buddy28 said:


Its true. God Himself outlines moral laws for humans to prescribe to. However, sometimes he doesnt follow those laws. He tells us to be kind and loving and good to others, and lets some individuals, like Val has pointed out, be born to parents who beat and abuse them, or gives them debilihiting psychatric disorders that ostrasize them from society and undermines their emotional wellbeing.

Its difficult. But God seems to work in the longterm. We can be pissed at God for 20 years, and later in our lives, we can find him. It is a journey.
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I will find him... if he comes down here and explains to me his reasons behind letting children suffer...

Or if he doesn't do that... he can simply eliminate the suffering of children anywhere.

Hell.. if he needs another son to sacrifice for the sake of the children... then take me.

I would be honored to die for the children. And I sure as shit wouldn't need to be the Lord to do it. I'd do it to protect them... not because I'm their father... not because I'm God... but because if someone has to die for them, I would be proud to be that person.

I'm willing to suffer for children I've never met. God isn't willing to help children that are his own.

Where is his love? Where is his mercy?
 
dude said:


God first created man as a companion. I serve Him because I am thankful for the many talents He has given me, lessons He has taught me, my life, and for the blessings He has given to me. Just because you don't understand Him does not mean that you should not believe in Him. If someone told me what a gun was and described it to me yet I had never seen one before, I would not automatically just say that there is no such thing as a gun. That is why believing in God is based on faith. You have to put some sort of trust in Him.
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Why would you thank God for the talents he's given you? Did you learn anything spontaneously? Did you wake up one morning, and realize you could play the guitar?

Did you pray, and then suddenly meet your fitness goals the next half hour?

No. What you know, and what you do, you have chosen for yourself.

I totally respect your belief in God, please don't get me wrong.

But when someone earns something for themselves, and thank God for what they earned... makes me wonder if the guy who beats his kid thanks God that he not only gave him the ability to beat his kid, but to not get caught in doing so, and not serving jail time.
 
dude said:


God first created man as a companion. I serve Him because I am thankful for the many talents He has given me, lessons He has taught me, my life, and for the blessings He has given to me. Just because you don't understand Him does not mean that you should not believe in Him. If someone told me what a gun was and described it to me yet I had never seen one before, I would not automatically just say that there is no such thing as a gun. That is why believing in God is based on faith. You have to put some sort of trust in Him.
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God may or may not "exist" ("existence" is not a term to be taken lightly, but that's a whole other argument. For the sake of this one, I won't pursue the issue any further), but even if he does exist, why would you believe in him with unquestioning faith? Think really hard about this question and give me a well articulated answer. Why give God your loyalty? Because he can send you to heaven or hell? Because of his awesome power? Because he is supposedly ultimately responsible for your creation? Who says you have to be loyal to your creator, no matter what? If you worship God, that's fine. Just admit that it's as arbitrary a decision as any.
 
funny, my friend says that i will go to hell, because, despite being a nice person, and all the rest, i dont live my life for god because im agnostic, at least for the moment. therefore, i am doomed to hell.

whereas, if hitler, in the time before he died, asked for forgiveness, will be in heaven.

any comments?
 
God is really Santa! How else would he get laid! Mrs. Clause is a hot piece of Ass!
 
If ya'll want an interesting take on the Christian god, read "God's Gym" by Stephen Moore. He is a biblical scholar -- a major one -- and this text looks at the divine body (of Yaweh, Jesus, etc.) and compares it to the bodybuilder's quest for male perfection. No pain, no gain. No torture on the cross, no resurrection in a perfect body.

Moore demonstrates how torture, the will to power and male narcissism are central to Christianity.
 
why I believe in GOD

I woke up one morning quite normally did not party the night before or anything......

I was sitting at the coffee table, and drinking.
I picked up a photo album and proceeded to look through the pictures of my family.

I then proceeded to weap....i started feeling very emotional and feeling of guilt and the impression of selfishness proceeded to invade the deepist recesses of my mind.....I began to weap more......

and then I realized that I was unhappy, and the root of my unhappiness was in my selfishness....then I glanced back at the photos in the album and i realized a paradox.....

I was most happy when I was with people I loved.....and I asked my self why was i happy with these people....and the answer is cuase I made them happy , by doing things for them, and caring for them, and they inturn did the same for me....

..so I realized the more each of us gave the more their was for everyone to recieve....and I cried because as I became older I began to take more than I gave, I was decieved by myself, and I feel by todays society, that taking is the root to happiness, wether through consumer products of by using people.........and the more I took the less happy I was...till i reached the point I am discussing with you...

I was spiritually and morally banrupt, I hand been duped in to a viciuos game that not omly harmed my self, and my family, but also the family of humanity as a whole....

at that moment I then felt an undeniable presence over my head and body, I began uncontrollable crying, and felt over come with a with feelings of grief, misspent youth, love, fear...everything.....

and this presence wich I thought was only a fleeting feeling of magnified emotion, went into the recesses of my mind and told me to start giving, instead of taking....

I then said..."but if I do no one will care".....and the presence answered "it does not matter, the point is that you gave, and if you give someone out there will be better cause of it."

I tried several times to push this force a way whatever it was..but it stayed and persisted, I felt love, I felt pain, grief, and joy all in one.

and this experirnce ehatever it was( I say GOD) help me realize that giving is the true answer to happiness not taking...... this presence also told me that we are not perfect and that the road that I now chose would be difficult, and that I may never see the fruits of the seeds I sow,and may indeed never directly benifit from my action, and the truth is it does not matter,and its not the point of giving.........

the idea me benifitting from positive actions would just be another form of taking...the point is to give truly with your heart for the sake of giving, for givings sake. Because there is a little bit of creation or GOD in all of us or whatever you want to call it ..I can say for certain that GOD Exists:angel:

and that we all need each other
 
Big Brother Val said:



Why would you thank God for the talents he's given you? Did you learn anything spontaneously? Did you wake up one morning, and realize you could play the guitar?

Did you pray, and then suddenly meet your fitness goals the next half hour?

No. What you know, and what you do, you have chosen for yourself.

I totally respect your belief in God, please don't get me wrong.

But when someone earns something for themselves, and thank God for what they earned... makes me wonder if the guy who beats his kid thanks God that he not only gave him the ability to beat his kid, but to not get caught in doing so, and not serving jail time.
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You can't earn talent. It is God given. Two people can work equally as much at practicing football, yet one will make it to the NFL and the other will not no matter how hard he tries. I give myself the credit of working hard to maximize my talent but I did not create my own talent.
 
casavant said:


God may or may not "exist" ("existence" is not a term to be taken lightly, but that's a whole other argument. For the sake of this one, I won't pursue the issue any further), but even if he does exist, why would you believe in him with unquestioning faith? Think really hard about this question and give me a well articulated answer. Why give God your loyalty? Because he can send you to heaven or hell? Because of his awesome power? Because he is supposedly ultimately responsible for your creation? Who says you have to be loyal to your creator, no matter what? If you worship God, that's fine. Just admit that it's as arbitrary a decision as any.
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I am sorry that I did not distinguish this before. I do question the existence of God and whether or not I am worshipping the one and only true God. How do I really know that I am right? I want to be able to just accept Him but like I said before, I think it is only human nature to question His existence. I do a lot of reading from the creationist point of view and the evolutionist point of view so I feel that I have equal exposure to both sides of the coin. It is an arbitrary decision because there really is no positve 100% proof that God does exist so I choose it on my own.
 
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I think this is a better answer

I did not write this but I feel it is a better answer to the question that I may have not answered too well.


Since "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.

The world is now under God's Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man's rebellion against God's Word.

This "bondage of corruption," with the "whole world groaning and travailing together in pain" (Romans 8:21, 22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Revelation 21:4).



Learn about how much Jesus Christ suffered

The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly "innocent" and "righteous" man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.

And this He did for us! "Christ died for our sins" (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.

With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.

The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly "exercised thereby" (Hebrews 12:11).

Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, "for the present," He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives.

"For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28).
 
"The rash assertion that 'God made man in His own image' is ticking like a time bomb at the foundation of many faiths," [Arthur C Clarke] writes in 1965, "and as the hierarchy of the universe is disclosed to us, we may have to recognize this chilling truth: if there are any gods whose chief concern is man, they cannot be very important gods."

Prayer is like rubbing a scratch n win lottery ticket with a quarter instead of a penny; doesn't do any harm, and if it makes you feel better, go right ahead. I'm not fully towards thinking like that, but that's the way I'm growing.
 
Here's my opinion's and I hope you all follow this:

God is not a living person, there is no proof of life. The meer thought of Him is enough for some people to go on day to day. God is more of a Faith Icon than anything. I have 12 years of Catholic education underneath me, I do not question for one minute that God exists. I do not believe that He is or was an actual human. I do believe that He had a Son named Jesus who was His Divine Interperator for those who had no Faith.

In order for you to understand the "concept" of God, you must first ask yourself how open you are to believing in what is not there. Are you the type of person who needs actualy physical proof or are you the type of person that can believe someone based solely upon their word. If you cannot believe in someone's word, then how can you say that you have any faith in that person's ability? Faith is a topic that has been argued, debated, written about, and studied for thousand's of years. All the answer's are the same. If you want to believe you have to open your heart to the idea of God. You, BigBrotherVal, made reference to the movie "End of Days." Well if you also note that in the end of the movie, his agnostic views had to change in order for him to rid the devil. He had to open his heart to the thought that God wasn't there in physical form, He was there in ANY form. God is not just a person, I believe that God can take any form or shape that He deems appropriate. He can take the shape of a flower on a sunny day as you walk down the park holding your kids' hands, and your kids look at the flower and say "Daddy! Look at that pretty flower!" That is God reaching out to you and saying, "Look I am all around you. You need to open your eyes and heart and take Me in for what I am, I am Faith."

When people say that God is Love, it's because they feel His presnce in their heart and they know that God won't just magically appear, He's not the Lucky Charm's guy. He will make His presence known when YOU are ready to open your heart.

It takes a strong person to have faith in something that isn't there. It takes a certain amount of something to believe. It isn't for everyone, and I'm in no way saying this in a negative connotation. But, if you question the very existence of God, in thought alone, then how do you expect Him to show himself? Do you want a bolt of lightening to strike down your door? Do you want the dead to live or the blind to see? Those are stories that have been exaggerated, in my opinon, to get the major thoughts across. It takes the strong to believe and the weak to cast stones.

I'm not intending any of this to be a flame to you and I apologize if you take it that way. But I firmly believe that God allows us to see the beauty in all things great and small and realize that He is the one who put them there.

I understand your point about the abuse that goes on in this world, ask yourself this. If all things were perfect, what would life be worth living for? Hollywood is so overraught with drugs, sex, scandals, and lie's it's sickening. They have more money than I can fathom, yet they are so unhappy. Why? They lost the focus for their lives. Money can't buy everything. Those who abuse this life do so because they are waiting for God to come down and say to them "Hey you can't do that! That's not what I intended for human's." I understand where you are coming from when you say "How can a Father let this happen." He allows it to happen because it is a lesson that one must learn and take from life on how NOT to live your life. Those who abuse and vandalize are those who have no faith in anything. They feel that they are owed something because they chose early on to live their life without faith and without meaning.

I challenge you to open your heart and mind and find the beauty in the world and not the hatred that you seem to only see. Let yourself forget all the agony in this life and try to find the simplicity that is God's Grace.

I hope this made sense, I've been reading this from the start and decided to enter my $.02

~p~
 
Big Brother Val said:
Children.

We are all God's "children".

Isn't that what we're told? That he is our "eternal Father"? Our "Father who art in Heaven"?

Am I wrong?

So let me ask you this...

Why is it that if something wonderful in life happens, it's God's will, yet... if something terrible happens, then God works in mysterious ways? (watch End of Days... they make a good point on this)

He's covered no matter what happens.

Why is it that some prayers are "answered"... while others go unnoticed?

Why is it that if my daughter pulls through and lives after being born at 1 lb. 4 oz, it's because God intended her to live.... but if there's a two year old girl who gets raped and then beaten to death... then it's not God's doing... but it's a consequence of "free agency", or what not... that we all make decisions?

Why is there a child at this very moment, locked in a closet with no food, no water, no clothes... wondering when the next time the door will open for his next beating?

But that's okay... because "God has a plan for all of us." right?

Why do people pray? Does something come of it?

No.

And if some prayers are answered, why not all of them? How can our "Father" be selective on who he answers, and who he does not?

A 3 year old girl was kidnapped about 10 miles from where I live... she was murdered, and dumped on the side of a road. I can guaran-fucking-tee that her mama was praying on a daily basis.. they are a mormon family... and yet... did that little girl come home safely?

No.

Was she scared? Hurt? Killed?

Yes.

Yet... my daughter pulls through... and it was "God's will."

Huh?

Did I miss something here?

They say God loves us more than we will ever comprehend... that this life is like the blink of an eye to him...

So when we suffer... he suffers.

So what the fuck was the point of putting us here?

I can tell you one thing... I love my children more than anything I have ever known... so does that mean I have to let them be stabbed to death, or starve, or freeze to death to prove I love them? To show them they're on their own... and if someone kills them, well... don't worry about it because that person will pay in the end?

Children are suffering. God's children are suffering. And his back is turned.

Is that a "father"?

Do you think I'd EVER let my kids be hurt, knowing I could stop it, but letting it happen anyway, because that's a consequence of life? Or that was my PLAN for them?

Sorry... but if that's God's plan for ANYONE... then I look forward to meeting him in the Parking Lot after I punch out on the clock of life.

A real "father"... a loving "father", would NEVER do that to their children.

Back in the day he'd command people to do things, he'd part the sea, he gave his son who walked on water to die for us...

He just can't seem to do that anymore... maybe it's because we could catch him on video, and actually PROVE he exists.. rather than rely on "faith" and reading the great fiction novel known as the "Bible".

Those who believe, please give me some sort of insight here.... and I wasn't trying to piss anyone off.
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Maybe GOD doesnt interfere with peoples lives so you cant say "he did that".

Plus, all bad deeds are KARMA.... Those people who suffered probably did something bad, either in this life or the next... That was their lesson, that they have learned.
 
I have no real opinion on God. I will read the book HS suggested, as it sounds quite interesting.

Another book to consider reading is "Memnoch the Devil" by Ann Rice. It's fiction, but gives a very interesting perspective on God and His motivations. I'm too tired to write a summary here, but I will tomorrow if anyone wants me to.

Val, you also may want to look into alternative religions for your answers. Budhism (which I follow, or try to anyway), Hinduism, etc. Most eastern religions provide a far more realistic approach to God than so-called Catholic dogma.
 
Taps said:
I have no real opinion on God.

Then how can you follow it up and say that Eastern Religions give a more realistic view of God? I'm curious no flame, just looking for reasoning is all


Val, you also may want to look into alternative religions for your answers. Budhism (which I follow, or try to anyway), Hinduism, etc. Most eastern religions provide a far more realistic approach to God than so-called Catholic dogma.
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There is nothing in the world that states that one religion is better than another. One may have more simple methods of devising Faith, that does not make it better than the next. In all religion's the main underlying theme is to accept all those who are different as one. I for one don't feel that one religion is better than another. I personally like to adapt the thoughts of one religion and meld them into my own Faith. I'm Catholic as are most Italians in the world, "Our" Faith may not be of the Earthy variety, however, I feel that it is right for me. I do not agree with all teachings, yet I will always be Catholic.

No flames here at all.

~p~
 
Hey dude and uNOwho........very good posts! While I am more in line with dude in his previous posts, uNOwho has some interesting views also. I believe God is in human form because it is written that God created man in his own image. Nonetheless, very informative information for those seeking answers to why God allows good and bad things happen. Great post guys!
 
why don't you all just bow down before me?

lol, just kidding. many of you know where i stand. so no point in going into it. let me just say that there is an undescribable amount of peace that comes from my believing. without faith and my convictions to govern my actions on a day to day basis i feel lost. why so many religions in the world? simple, they are man's attempt to find God. is God so really lost he needs to be found or are we the one's lost? something to think about. but like i say, to each their own.
 
im agnostic at the moment - ive had faith in the past, and may likely have faith in the future...as an agnostic my beliefs can be understood by this metaphor:

the speed limit is 50 kph on city streets.

why?

because people go 60, and it would be dangerous if people went more than 70.

in other words, speed limits are a little more strict than people actually do act, and a little more strict than what could actually occur safely...people break speed limits, but only a bit...

the bible is a big book of laws, that everyone breaks...a big book of laws (written by people, not god, or jesus, or whatever) that are a LITTLE more strict than could actually occur safely...people break the rules in the bible, but only a bit...

in other words, the bible presents a bunch of laws that people dont follow, but only stray from a little bit, and things still function ok. if this book didnt exist, and people werent afraid of going to this fictional hell, people would do what they want with no consequences...if the speed limit were 70, people would go 80, thats why you make things a little more strict than would function properly, because people break the rules, but only so much. when we die, we dont go to heaven or hell, our minds just dont exist, the same way we dont remember 1750...

i might regain my faith later, but if god is going to send me to hell, despite being a good person, just because i dont live my life for him, then that isnt a god for me
 
Re: Re: Why I don't believe in God. Those who believe, please help me understand...

SSAlexSS said:
Plus, all bad deeds are KARMA.... Those people who suffered probably did something bad, either in this life or the next... That was their lesson, that they have learned.
Click to expand...

So if I go on a killing spree, I'm doing God's work?
 
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OMEGA..... I've heard similar stories such as that from MANY people... and it does raise curiosity. Though I've never felt that... years after my brothers death, my mothers life had no direction... she was in a downward spiral... her husband then left her, then she lost her job... she has started going to church again, and seems happier than she has been in the past 8 years. Sometimes I envy that... I guess I just don't understand it.

DUDE... Thank you for taking the time to write. And though, in an odd way, what you posted sorta makes sense... it still doesn't make any sense as to why infants and children suffer... they haven't done wrong yet... and if God grants those evil people children, just so they can do acts of evil upon that child... then what in the hell was the point of giving them the child? He already knows they're going to do evil... so why give them the chance to harm a beautiful little child if he KNOWS they will anyway? Why but the child through that?

UNOWHO.... Also thank you for taking the time to write your post... I appreciate the "lamans" terms you use as well... and I took no offense whatsoever to it. In a way, I can see what you are saying. But to me... that's just a way of saying "have faith".... well... if I was to stab you in the leg with a screwdriver twice a day for 10 years, while every day saying "I won't stab you again tomorrow." then doing so anyway... then all the sudden turned around and said... "Nah... I won't stab you again." And didn't for a while... are you going to have faith that I won't stab you again whenever I pick up a screwdriver?

I wouldn't.

Just as with God... I see all of these children suffering... there are children who are cold and hungry... there are children who are beaten... there are children who are stolen and murdered... then for God to expect us to believe in him despite the evil... I just don't know how he can ask that of us. It seems very hypocritical. How can I view such a neglectful God as my eternal father?



Thank you all for taking the time to write. What you post does make sense to me... but I still can't understand how God... whatever he is... can expect us to believe based on a book that was written before we were born. And if we don't believe, we may not be saved, because we didn't believe in him...

Well if he is so understanding and merciful.. wouldn't he understand WHY it's hard to believe?

How can a father let his children suffer? He could stop it any time, of any day... and decides not to.
 
I don't follow any one religion..in my opinion, each religion is based off of some prophet or what-not that may or may not have been a 'master.' (Someone of the highest spiritual enlightenment....ie, Jesus, Buddah etc...)

If I were to guess, the point of all the pain we go through is to make us grow and enrich ourselves. For example, I, as I've mentioned on here a lot, have experienced a relatively severe back injury....I believe that this along with other pains has caused me to grow and mature quite a bit...you also cannot appreciate pleasure without knowing pain.
 
Frackal said:
b]you also cannot appreciate pleasure without knowing pain. [/B]
Click to expand...

Than what would heaven be like? And it didn't have to be this way, since God supposedly created everything.

Disclaimer: Frack, you didn't say you believed in a heaven, so this question isn't directed at you. I just wanted to throw it out there.
 
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casavant said:


Than what would heaven be like?
Click to expand...


I believe they say that you'll appreciate Heaven so much, because you go through hell on Earth. There is so much pain here, and so much shit to go through... that Heaven could simply be a nice town in Nebraska, and it'd seem wonderful.

But what about those people born into wealthy families, who never have real problems in life, live happily, then die? Was that their "TEST"? If so... how will they appreciate Heaven?

And what about the 3 month old infant that starves to death because the parents decide not to feed him anymore? Does he appreciate Heaven? His only trial was hunger... and he didn't truly understand it.

And the point you made earlier about going on a killing spree as doing God's work.. I totally agree on. How can it be said that those who are punished were the worst ones? So an infant who is beaten to death, or starved to death, or freezes to death in a fucking dumpster deserved it because of how wicked they were, or were going to be?

I call a big "Fuck that" on that topic.

How can got be so righteous? So merciful? So loving?

There are children who are dieing.

And God does nothing.

If I was to go avenge the children, and wipe these fuckers off the face of the Earth, I'd go to hell for doing a job that God doesn't have the balls to follow up on...

What a truly loving, merciful father he is.
 
Well I must say that this is far and away one of the better posts that I have read...lots of good opinions (becuase thats just what they are) and great reading. While I agree and disagree with a lot of points here, none of them reflect what I believe....have you ever read any of Zecharia Sitchin's books....anyway.....i was going to do a long long post and talk about this, but I though maybe we could use a little humor to lighten things up, so here is some George Carlin Quotes on religion and on some of it...i couldnt agree more:

George Carlin On Religion
"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll to to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!"

-- George Carlin
"I credit that eight years of grammar school with nourishing me in a direction where I could trust myself and trust my instincts. They gave me the tools to reject my faith. They taught me to question and think for myself and to believe in my instincts to such an extent that I just said, This is a wonderful fairy tale they have going here, but it's not for me."


-- George Carlin, New York Times, 20 Aug 1995, pg. 17.
"If churches want to play the game of politics, let them pay admission like everyone else."


-- George Carlin
"This is a lttle prayer dedicated to the separation of church and state. I guess if they are going to force those kids to pray in schools they might as well have a nice prayer like this: Our Father who art in heaven, and to the republic for which it stands, thy kingdom come, one nation indivisible as in heaven, give us this day as we forgive those who so proudly we hail. Crown thy good into temptation but deliver us from the twilight's last gleaming. Amen and Awomen."


-- George Carlin, on "Saturday Night Live"
"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death."


-- George Carlin
"The only good thing ever to come out of religion was the music."


-- George Carlin, "Brain Droppings"
"I've begun worshipping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to 'God' are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate."


-- George Carlin
"I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood".


-- George Carlin
 
kronkette said:
lots of good opinions (becuase thats just what they are) and great reading.
Click to expand...

I'll be the first to admit that noone knows for sure if God exists and in what form. And of course my personal opinion of God is just that.

The Carlin quotes kick ass. Thanks.:)
 
kronkette said:
Well I must say that this is far and away one of the better posts that I have read...lots of good opinions (becuase thats just what they are) and great reading. While I agree and disagree with a lot of points here, none of them reflect what I believe....have you ever read any of Zecharia Sitchin's books....anyway.....i was going to do a long long post and talk about this, but I though maybe we could use a little humor to lighten things up, so here is some George Carlin Quotes on religion and on some of it...i couldnt agree more:

George Carlin On Religion
"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll to to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!"

-- George Carlin
"I credit that eight years of grammar school with nourishing me in a direction where I could trust myself and trust my instincts. They gave me the tools to reject my faith. They taught me to question and think for myself and to believe in my instincts to such an extent that I just said, This is a wonderful fairy tale they have going here, but it's not for me."


-- George Carlin, New York Times, 20 Aug 1995, pg. 17.
"If churches want to play the game of politics, let them pay admission like everyone else."


-- George Carlin
"This is a lttle prayer dedicated to the separation of church and state. I guess if they are going to force those kids to pray in schools they might as well have a nice prayer like this: Our Father who art in heaven, and to the republic for which it stands, thy kingdom come, one nation indivisible as in heaven, give us this day as we forgive those who so proudly we hail. Crown thy good into temptation but deliver us from the twilight's last gleaming. Amen and Awomen."


-- George Carlin, on "Saturday Night Live"
"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death."


-- George Carlin
"The only good thing ever to come out of religion was the music."


-- George Carlin, "Brain Droppings"
"I've begun worshipping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to 'God' are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate."


-- George Carlin
"I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood".


-- George Carlin
Click to expand...


George Carlin rocks. Thanks for the break in seriousness. However.. I would like to hear your opinion on the serious side... if you have the time.
 
I am literally lost for word's. I have so many in my head that want to come out, yet I don't know how to put them. I can try my best to rationalize why I'm Catholic and why you should have faith in God, but that will do no good. You aren't looking for religious advice. I could try and rationalize why the people in the inner city and ghetto have a more difficult life and why you shouldn't weap and worry for them, but that will do no good because I will inevitably be viewed as a bigot. There are so many angles to which I can take to try and sway your viewpoint, yet none will do good because they all revolve around a centralized point. Religion. You are trying to understand God, a god, any god because you have none in your life and don't have the capacity to understand where the hate comes from. If God intended for this life to be pain free, then Adam and Eve would never have been a story. Their struggles of finding who they were in a world devoid of any life but the one that could truly sway them from choosing good and evil. That is a metaphor for life. In the world today who can you really rely upon to get you through the day. Who can you turn to when things are down, and your luck has run out? Where in this life is there a sanctuary from the pain and suffering, a place where all doubts subside and you just know that everything will work out. Much like Adam and Eve had to discover if the apple, the forbidden fruit, was really all it was cracked up to be. When Eve took a bite of the fruit what happened? God cast them from his Holy Land - Heaven - and forced them to live a life of mortal luxury and mortal sin. No one in this world is free from sin, not even the Pope. I do not speak badly of the Pope for he is my iconic leader on this Earth. However, the reference always goes back to Adam and Eve and how they broke rule #1. For their curiosity the rest of the world must live in infamy and try to relinquish their sins.

For what? There are people who feel that God is nothing more than a psychotic dillusion, so they go about their life and have nothing to fall back upon when despair knock's them upside the head. All those little children that you speak of, do you think that their lives would be full of joy and praise if they grew up in an environment condusive to extreme violence and abuse. Would you subject them to that kind of life? Would YOU want your kids to grow up in that environment? Believe me when I say that NO kid should ever have to live their life fearing the father, mother, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, or any blood relative. I can relate to your feeling of disgust when you think of your children and how you would never let that happen to them. But ask yourself this.

Is God really the one to blame for people CHOOSING to live their lives as they do? God is not a giver and taker. I believe that God present's us different choices for our lives and we are the one's responsible for choosing the path. Robert Frost wrote a poem entitled "The Road Less Taken" For those not familiar with it, I'm going to post it. I apologize for the length of this, if it is too large have a Mod PM me and i'll ammend it.

TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
Click to expand...

That poem is one of the most incredible poems ever written. I feel it sums up life and it's choices quite elegantly and with such ease. He is talking about making a choice and thinking of his latter reflection in life and how will he view his decision. There is no such road in life that leads us to perfect pavement. There will always be bumps in the road. For some it is more like trying to skateboard through the Rockies with three broken wheels and no shoes. For other's it's like riding in a plane with a little turbulence at times.

For me to try and justify someone's actions in hope that I may persuade you to understand the relevance of God. That, sad to say, I cannot do. The only thing that I can do is present you with as much evidence of God's grace and power and have you choose the path. All decision's in this life are not for you or I to question. If a child die's, I surely do feel bad and wish they had the chance to live but I do not question the mortality and futility of God's effort. The subtlety at which He works is quite frustrating at times. Yet, like all things. In order to see the good you must first see the good in yourself.

~p~
 
Take yourself out of society and let your mind forget what you see day to day---The killing---babies dieing etc---Before there was a society early in the human's existence, there was also killing--raping etc---survival of the fittest---nothing has changed except what the masses say are exceptable. Not God---If god does exist his plan had nothing to do with what "a particalar society thinks is right or wrong. Parts of africa its ok to marry at 10 year old girl but here he would be jailed and most that do "believe"would think he is going to hell. It can't happen

I think we may all be on a journey that we all end up in the same place at the end. It just may take some people longer to reach it. God or whoever gives us tools to get there. a car accident-cancer-babies being beaten. These are all tools. Our society "the Masses" put these in a certain catagory. Fact is most don't except death. Even priest and such can see a kid die of lets say drugs and will use words like what a waste----Its not a waste---the kid was used as a tool to teach others. He may have been someone who already made it to the end but wanted to be a teacher. Just one way to look at it. One thing is for sure thats going to happen to everyone. They are going to die from something----and almost everybody dies a "harsh" death---Thats because we don't have control of our pain.(a tool) I think when one has total control of all senses in the body and will understand why they are there-then one will have the ability to reach the end so to speak. But to understand all senses, people may have to go through what we call hell to get there.
 
I FOUND YOUR ANSWER!!!! READ ON TO SEE!!!

A Sunday School teacher of pre-schoolers was concerned that his students might be a little confused about Jesus Christ because of the Christmas season emphasis on his birth. He wanted to make sure they understood that the birth of Jesus occurred a long time ago, that he grew up, etc. So he asked his class, "Where is Jesus today?"

Steven raised his hand and said, "He's in Heaven."

Mary was called on and answered, "He's in my heart." Little Johnny, waving his hand furiously, blurted out, "I know! I know! He's in our bathroom!"

The whole class got very quiet, looked at the teacher, and waited for a response. The teacher was completely at a loss for a few very long seconds. He finally gathered his wits and asked Little Johnny how he knew this.

And Little Johnny said, "Well... every morning, my father gets up, bangs on the bathroom door, and yells 'Jesus Christ, are you still in there?'!"


:spit: :insane:

~p~
 
Burning Inside: It was planned that way. Jesus prayed that if there was any other way then let it be done that way but this was the only way. Jesus was not questioning God; he was quoting the first line of Psalm 22--a deep expression of the anguish he felt when he took on the sins of the world, which caused him to be separated from his Father. This was what Jesus dreaded as he prayed to God in the garden to take the cup from him(26:39). The physcial agony was horrible, but even worse was the period of spiritual separation from God. Jesus suffered this double death so that we would never have to experience eternal separation from God.
 
Big Brother Val said:
Just as with God... I see all of these children suffering... there are children who are cold and hungry... there are children who are beaten... there are children who are stolen and murdered... then for God to expect us to believe in him despite the evil... I just don't know how he can ask that of us. It seems very hypocritical. How can I view such a neglectful God as my eternal father?



Thank you all for taking the time to write. What you post does make sense to me... but I still can't understand how God... whatever he is... can expect us to believe based on a book that was written before we were born. And if we don't believe, we may not be saved, because we didn't believe in him...

Well if he is so understanding and merciful.. wouldn't he understand WHY it's hard to believe?

How can a father let his children suffer? He could stop it any time, of any day... and decides not to. [/B]
Click to expand...

I did not write this but thought it might help.
"
Why, if there is a loving God, does He not intervene and stop the bad actions of bad men? Certainly the innocent should not have to suffer at the hands of those who are evil? Where is the justice in that?
To begin with, we need to look at what the humanist is demanding. In order to fulfill this obligation God would have to intervene all the time, and thus alter the laws of nature: so that a wooden beam became soft as grass when used as a weapon, or a knife blade became putty in the hands of an aggressor, or the bullet of the assassin disintegrated in mid-flight. It would be impossible to imagine a world like this. Life would be a mass of confusion, as there would be no longer any rules which we would be held accountable to. Like the chess game, the fact that there are rules and consequences to our actions gives the game its relevance and makes it worth playing.

In order to create persons with free will there had to be a predictable universe, which included both evil and good. Thus the possibility of evil is inherent in the very existence of freedom. Yet because of man's rebellion one of the inescapable consequences of this was suffering, whether mental or physical, whether self-inflicted or by another. While we love freedom, we tend not to like the consequences which go with it; yet we cannot have one without the other. "

Here is another tidbit. This is not necessarily aimed at you Big Brother Val.
The question constantly asked by non-Christians is:

"How can a God of love let all this suffering go on in his world? Either he doesn't exist at all or he is a vicious tyrant who enjoys seeing people in pain."
Before I attempt to answer this question, I think it helpful to turn the question around so those who are asking can see that the premise which they take is equally illogical. If we assume that God does not exist because there is evil in the world, then how are we going to explain that there is joy and happiness as well? Who are we going to blame that on? Does that then prove God's existence? Of course not. It points out the fact that suffering can not be explained so simply, and that the whole reality of suffering is much more complex than simply blaming it all on God, as so many people are prone to do.

The fact is that there is simply no slick or easy answer to the problem of suffering. It might be helpful to ask those who decry God's existence to explain why they believe there is suffering. They would be the first to admit that the blame rests on none other than ourselves, a view which ironically is close to our own. It is from this premise then that we should start the discussion. Because, while the humanists like to think they have disproved God because of the suffering we find in the world, they fail to understand that the very existence of suffering presupposes the existence of goodness and happiness as well, yet whose source, I feel, only we who believe in the existence of God can adequately explain and offer to the world. Let's then take the questions one by one."
"
 
Frackal said:
I don't follow any one religion..in my opinion, each religion is based off of some prophet or what-not that may or may not have been a 'master.' (Someone of the highest spiritual enlightenment....ie, Jesus, Buddah etc...)

If I were to guess, the point of all the pain we go through is to make us grow and enrich ourselves. For example, I, as I've mentioned on here a lot, have experienced a relatively severe back injury....I believe that this along with other pains has caused me to grow and mature quite a bit...you also cannot appreciate pleasure without knowing pain.
Click to expand...

This is one thing I found about why there is pain.
"Many people ask why there must be pain in our suffering? Genesis 3:16 speaks of pain entering into the world, specifically pointing to the pain of childbirth. Before that time there was no pain. Thus pain is a result of the rebellion of man. Yet that is not all.
We need pain.

This question does not take into consideration that we really need pain. If God removed pain completely it would be disastrous for us all.

Examples: our appendix bursting, or the loss of fingers by leprosy. How would we know when our body was being damaged if there was no pain? Pain is an early warning system which tells us that something is wrong with our body.

But what do we do with a disfigured baby, or someone who is handicapped from birth or by an accident? Did they deserve this suffering?

No, of course not. But like the scenario which we discussed earlier, if we can agree that creation was perverted by the sin of Eden, and we can agree that disasters are a consequence of that sin, then we should also agree that disfigurement and being handicapped will also fall into those same categories. In an imperfect world we should expect to see these handicaps.

But are we not all handicapped to a certain degree? We all have physical problems and difficulties. I wear glasses, and am hopeless driving at night without them. Does this upset my view of reality, and should I blame God for my shortsightedness? No, because of all people He can understand my infirmities, possibly better than myself, because He has experienced it all before!

We are not alone.

Unlike all other religions, the Biblical view of God is not one of an uninvolved deity, just sitting back and watching us suffer. He came Himself to earth to suffer like His creation.

A piece called The Long Silence sums this up perfectly:

"At the end of time, billions of people were scattered on a great plain before God's throne. Most shrank back from the brilliant light before them. But some groups near the front talked heatedly - not with cringing shame but with belligerence, saying, "Can God judge us? How can He know about suffering?" snapped a pert young brunette. She ripped open a sleeve to reveal a tattooed number from a Nazi concentration camp. "We endured terror, beating, torture, and death!" In another group a Negro boy lowered his collar. "What about this?" he demanded, showing an ugly rope burn. "Lynched for no crime but being black!" In another crowd, a pregnant school girl with sullen eyes said, "Why should I suffer? It wasn't my fault." Far out across the plain were hundreds of such groups. Each had a complaint against God for the evil and suffering He permitted in His world. How lucky God was to live in heaven where all was sweetness and light, where there was no weeping or fear, no hunger or hatred. What did God know of all that men had been forced to endure in this world? For God leads a pretty sheltered life, they said.

"So each of these groups sent forth their leader, chosen because he had suffered the most. A Jew, a Negro, a person from Hiroshima, a horribly deformed arthritic, a thalidomide child. In the centre of the plain they consulted with each other. At last they were ready to present their case. It was rather clever. Before God could be qualified to be their judge, He must endure what they had endured. Their verdict was that God should be sentenced to live on earth - as a man! Let him be born a Jew. Let the legitimacy of His birth be doubted. Give Him a work so difficult that even His family will think Him out of His mind when He tries to do it. Let Him be betrayed by His closest friends. Let Him face false charges, be tried by a prejudiced jury and convicted by a cowardly judge. Let Him be tortured. At last, let Him see what it means to be terribly alone. Then let Him die. Let Him die so that there can be no doubt He died. Let there be a whole host of witnesses to verify it. As each leader announced his portion of the sentence, loud murmurs of approval went up from the throng of people assembled. When the last had finished pronouncing sentence there was a long silence. No one uttered another word. No one moved. For suddenly all knew that God had already served His sentence."

Indeed God has already felt our pain and He therefore understands us. He has been where we are, and this provides great comfort for those who are going through pain now. "
 
Big Brother Val said:



I believe they say that you'll appreciate Heaven so much, because you go through hell on Earth. There is so much pain here, and so much shit to go through... that Heaven could simply be a nice town in Nebraska, and it'd seem wonderful.

But what about those people born into wealthy families, who never have real problems in life, live happily, then die? Was that their "TEST"? If so... how will they appreciate Heaven?

And what about the 3 month old infant that starves to death because the parents decide not to feed him anymore? Does he appreciate Heaven? His only trial was hunger... and he didn't truly understand it.

And the point you made earlier about going on a killing spree as doing God's work.. I totally agree on. How can it be said that those who are punished were the worst ones? So an infant who is beaten to death, or starved to death, or freezes to death in a fucking dumpster deserved it because of how wicked they were, or were going to be?

I call a big "Fuck that" on that topic.

How can got be so righteous? So merciful? So loving?

There are children who are dieing.

And God does nothing.

If I was to go avenge the children, and wipe these fuckers off the face of the Earth, I'd go to hell for doing a job that God doesn't have the balls to follow up on...

What a truly loving, merciful father he is.
Click to expand...

If you think about it, they would be better off going to Heaven now than they would at a later age.
 
WOW dude.....this is some pretty powerful stuff! I don't know where you are getting it from but this is very interesting!
One thing I wanted to point out to Val is that while we are on earth, we are not a part of God's Kingdom. On earth there is pain and suffering as dude has pointed out in his posts. God makes a promise to us that if we worship Him and praise Him with all our glory he will provide us a place in Heaven where there is no pain and suffering, no handicaps, no fighting, no blah, blah, blah. (I think you get the point on that!). I personally believe that when God made man he didn't have in mind the mess we live in today. It was only after Adam and Eve forsaked God by eating from the Tree of Life that He condemned man to a life of pain and suffering. I'm not going to rehash what dude has posted because I think he has done an outstanding job in providing information and in some instances answers to some of your questions about believing in God and why there is suffering. I know at times beliefs get questioned. The one thing I want you to know is and what I personally believe is that God is unapproachable. By this, I mean, his ways and how he answers prayers should never be questioned. I'm 40 years old and since I was mature enough the understand how great God is, I have never questioned God about bad things that have happened in my life. Bad things in my life have only made my Faith stronger in God. If people want to call me a sheep, I personally do not care. Anyway, I'm going to let this rest and read some. Hey Val and dude.....when I get my karma working(it's messed up and I'm waiting on George to fix it) I'm going to lay it on you! Thanks guys! Later!
 
Big Brother Val:

DUDE, we can't convince you to belive in God: we're no qualified preacher/priest. Worship whoever you want. Hey, maybe the 98% of humanity is wrong and you're probably right.

If you feel you're right, make an altar with your stupid picture on it and have your kids pray to you (The-stupid-mighty-know-it-all)
 
:devil:
Val, you answered your own questions and it's fine to feel that way. I questioned all the Catholic bullshit growing up and came to realize that it was all created to control the masses. You control your destiny and are responsable for your own actions.
 
REALJUICE said:
Big Brother Val:

DUDE, we can't convince you to belive in God: we're no qualified preacher/priest. Worship whoever you want. Hey, maybe the 98% of humanity is wrong and you're probably right.

If you feel you're right, make an altar with your stupid picture on it and have your kids pray to you (The-stupid-mighty-know-it-all)
Click to expand...

What a fine Christian comment. Why don't you print that one off and show it to your pastor? Basically, what I'm trying to say is, "Fuck off cocksucker." See ya, bitch.
 
REALJUICE:

I know this has been said before, but if you decide to live your life in the infamy of your own idiotic actions and comment, please refrain from making such ignorant and un-educated answers. I don't care what you personally believe in, but don't throw your own petty bullshit thoughts on a thread that is one of answering difficult questions of time. Save yourself the dignity and throw your keyboard out the window.

~p~
 
Hey uNOwho.... I meant to include you in my post above about the good info! Thanks! I'm having trouble giving people karma so when it starts working I'll hit you back! Thanks again!
 
Anytime my man. I'm no religious expert, I only have my opinions formed from my 12 years of Catholic education. And they are warped at times. :D

~p~
 
WOMBAT: You make a very intersting point there... as far as someone who wanted to be a teacher... I guess in order to think about that, you truly have to believe in the afterlife... and to tell you the truth, I HOPE it IS that way... I'd rather it be a volunteer... shit... I'D be a volunteer... to show others how evil people can be. The thought of a child being beaten is almost unbearable to me. Thanks for your input.

BigSatan13: I do agree... but at the same time, I truly believe there is SOMETHING after life... I just can't picture whatever it is to be our "father". To say millions upon millions of people have to suffer, because Adam and Eve messed up... that's like sending not only a murderer to the electric chair, but everyone who lived in the same state as him.

I think it's a really fucked up system... and for a "perfect being"... I wouldn't think God would not have a fucked up system.

REALJUICE :die:


Dude and uNOwho: The posts you make are fabulous. And I don't know where you guys get that stuff, and Dude... I'm not sure who you quoted... but it really is an eye opener.

I understand that you can't just turn on that lightbulb in my brain, and show me the light... but you do make some really interesting points. As I posted above, I don't understand why God would condemn millions based off the actions of two... if my daughter does something wrong, I don't spank all of my kids because of it. I know there has to be some sort of suffering in this world... otherwise, as you both have said... you wouldn't know what happiness would be.

And it was a good point also that you don't blame happiness on God... I guess I never really thought of that. But happiness is something we all strive for. I want my children to be happy. Them being happy is what makes me happy in life. If I was a billionaire, but couldn't see my kids... I'd be miserable.

I know it's impossible to understand God's "plan" or whatever it is he has... and if it's said that life wasn't supposed to get this bad, and man wasn't going to get this evil... why didn't he intervene a long time ago? Is that why they say that he's going to come back, and burn the Earth or whatever?

I'm not a religious man. I don't even know what I believe... I just know that when I think about children who don't have a warm place to sleep, and don't have food to eat... and children who are beaten... and taken from their homes... children who are dieing... my hell... it makes me lose sleep at night.

I think about it while I'm at work... while I'm in the gym... I donate as much money as I can to the women's and childrens center here... I donate to the food bank... I do the sub for Santa's and the angel tree's at Christmas... but in reality... I'M NOT DOING SHIT!

For every child I try to help, there's 1,000 more who need it. And I just can't help them all. So if I'm so heartbroken by this... if I can't sleep... if I spend my extra money on food for children I've never seen before, rather than build up my savings account for my own future... why can't God help?

The guy PARTED THE SEA!!! He can do that to save a group of people a thousand years ago, or whatever... but now he can't lift a finger to help?

Then why the hell did he help them?

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to write, and being so open about it, without criticizing... it makes it so much easier to listen to, and try to understand, without a church setting... without having to sing... without having to just "accept" what they are teaching, without having to take some class where you talk about nothing but church.

I don't want to know about church. I'm trying to understand why I should go to church to worship the man... when it seems like he turned his back on all of his children.

Thanks again... it really is appreciated.
 
BBV,

well my brother...i will make this as simple as i can,because IMO there's no real answer...GOD is a thought that to me signifies a higher power "of some sort "...this higher power to ME,signifies the POSITIVE outlook on life and what becomes of US thereafter.there's two paths you can follow in this world...GOOD and BAD...it's your choice in the end...whatever road you decide to follow...listen,GOD represents your spirituality...he is not a miracle worker like some people tend to think.he is planted in your psyche and no matter what road you decide to take,GOD will always be there with you;perhaps not to aid or protect you,but to GUIDE you thru life...if you decide to rape and murder a little 12 yr old girl,you WILL suffer the consequences of your actions sooner or later...but beleive me when i tell you that your consequences will get to you in the end...it is for this reason,that we no what's rit and what's wrong DEEP inside;no matter what you are contemplating on doing...GOOD or BAD.this is my take on what GOD signifies to ME.the choice is yours...you can chose to live like an animal and live a certain amount of time on earth,then die and head into a coffin to rot...or you can chose GOD's path which has more meaning and is much more fullfilling...

PS:as stated this is just my take on the issue and what i have learned and developed over my years here on earth...with plenty of misfortunes in my life...this is what i have developed...---fyi
 
REALJUICE said:
Big Brother Val:

DUDE, we can't convince you to belive in God: we're no qualified preacher/priest. Worship whoever you want. Hey, maybe the 98% of humanity is wrong and you're probably right.

If you feel you're right, make an altar with your stupid picture on it and have your kids pray to you (The-stupid-mighty-know-it-all)
Click to expand...

excellent input...you're soooooooooo smart...are you a marketing major?
 
da big thinker said:
BBV,

well my brother...i will make this as simple as i can,because IMO there's no real answer...GOD is a thought that to me signifies a higher power "of some sort "...this higher power to ME,signifies the POSITIVE outlook on life and what becomes of US thereafter.there's two paths you can follow in this world...GOOD and BAD...it's your choice in the end...whatever road you decide to follow...listen,GOD represents your spirituality...he is not a miracle worker like some people tend to think.he is planted in your psyche and no matter what road you decide to take,GOD will always be there with you;perhaps not to aid or protect you,but to GUIDE you thru life...if you decide to rape and murder a little 12 yr old girl,you WILL suffer the consequences of your actions sooner or later...but beleive me when i tell you that your consequences will get to you in the end...it is for this reason,that we no what's rit and what's wrong DEEP inside;no matter what you are contemplating on doing...GOOD or BAD.this is my take on what GOD signifies to ME.the choice is yours...you can chose to live like an animal and live a certain amount of time on earth,then die and head into a coffin to rot...or you can chose GOD's path which has more meaning and is much more fullfilling...

PS:as stated this is just my take on the issue and what i have learned and developed over my years here on earth...with plenty of misfortunes in my life...this is what i have developed...---fyi
Click to expand...


Thanks, my friend. I do think there is, as you said, a God "of some sort"... I don't know if he's a guy... or just a presence... or what. I know I have the free will to do as I choose...

It's just that children are so helpless. They are so innocent and so beautiful... I just can't fathom how anyone could do harm to them. And then, for God to have the power to help, but purposely deciding not to, so we can all be "tested" doesn't make sense.

Does he test the baby who's getting beat? Or is the baby the parents' test? And if it's the parents' test... why make the baby go through that.

I have the address of a guy who killed his 3 month old baby... hung her by the neck from a fucking doorknob...

I am seriously contemplating killing him.

Thing is... if I do... then I get to go to hell for doing the work God should be doing.

I just don't understand... and it frustrates me like I cannot explain.

Thanks for taking the time to write, my friend.
 
my pleasure...like i said,two paths...GOOD or BAD...let me explain...someone did hurt my 7 month old daughter...i will not get into details...i chose my BAD path and although i chose this path,i know that GOD was instilled into my psyche,telling me that it was the right thing to do.i chose to break his legs and face w/ my baseball bat...he is presently in a coma...although i chose the BAD path so to speak,i still beleive to this day,no matter what anyone tells me,that i did what was right...and have no guilt whatsoever.nevertheless,consequences still came my way.what i am trying to say,is that,hurt/pain/hapiness comes in all forms and GOD is only a guide...a guide that will hopefully lead us to something better...as the saying states:WE LIVE AND LEARN...SPEAK TO YOU SOON MY BROTHER VAL...
 
da big thinker said:
my pleasure...like i said,two paths...GOOD or BAD...let me explain...someone did hurt my 7 month old daughter...i will not get into details...i chose my BAD path and although i chose this path,i know that GOD was instilled into my psyche,telling me that it was the right thing to do.i chose to break his legs and face w/ my baseball bat...he is presently in a coma...although i chose the BAD path so to speak,i still beleive to this day,no matter what anyone tells me,that i did what was right...and have no guilt whatsoever.nevertheless,consequences still came my way.what i am trying to say,is that,hurt/pain/hapiness comes in all forms and GOD is only a guide...a guide that will hopefully lead us to something better...as the saying states:WE LIVE AND LEARN...SPEAK TO YOU SOON MY BROTHER VAL...
Click to expand...

I respected you before... but that post has taken it to a higher level. I absolutely admire what you did for the sake of your daughter... if you did that to a man... then I know the fucker deserved it. And I would be more than willing to do the same. The funnest part about busting someone up, is they have to live with their new found disability... killing them let's 'em off easy.

And I agree... I can't imagine someone harming my child... and me just calling the cops. Fuck that. Doesn't the bible say an eye for an eye? Well... how is that interperated? I'm sure the fellow didn't beat your daughter with a baseball bat... but he did harm a beautiful child... so in my opinion, the consequences should be greater.

I'm sorry to hear that your daughter was hurt... I hope that she's doing okay now... and again... I admire what you did to level the playing field against the fucker... and make him feel how your little girl must have felt...

Totally powerless.
 
Brother Val,

you're a good bro and i thank you for your empathy;my daughter is doing well and is as healthy as healthy can get...she is my life and without her the world would just not be the same.thank you for your respects and know that i respect you as well...PEACE my friend and brother...
 
da big thinker said:
Brother Val,

you're a good bro and i thank you for your empathy;my daughter is doing well and is as healthy as healthy can get...she is my life and without her the world would just not be the same.thank you for your respects and know that i respect you as well...PEACE my friend and brother...
Click to expand...

Thinker,
I am a God fearing, non violent person. I choose not to react violently to people but in your case I can honestly say I really don't know how I would react. I have two daughters and like you, they are the world to me and my wife. To say I would do that or do this if somebody hurt them, well, I just don't know how I would react until I was put into that situation. I would hope that I would choose something that wouldn't put me in jail and away from my family, but then again, the anger I would have for that person for hurting a child, my child at that, I think my emotions would overrun me and control me to the point of exacting revenge on that person. I respect the decision you made and do not find fault in it! Every person has their own way of dealing with emotional situations such as this.

On a side note: I hope the fucker never walks again!!!!!!! I don't say that to be funny. Harming children is the ultimate sin and ranks alongside of murder! That's my opinion though!

Later!
 
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