Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
Which was a bigger tragedy?
- Thread starter Lestat
- Start date
i love how people like to talk to others about what they do an do not know.jnevin said:
I grew up in the poor side of my town, there was actually a shooting on my parents block just last week man. I think 50 people out of my graduating class of 400 went to college. I was a die hard conservative and thought that capitalism should rule and its just every man for himself.
it wasn't until I became educated and started working i the real world that my eyes were opened to how things really work. I agree, we should all have an incentive to be competative and push things, but it doesn't have to be at the expense of others.
also i realize that not everyone is born with the same abilities. Just like not everyone can run a mile in 5 minutes or jump 5 feet in the air, not everyone has the mental capability to be an engineer or lawyer or doctor. besides, we need people who server our food, take out our trash, now our lawns, and clean our toilets. Maybe if these unskilled jobs provided a livable wage for people, you wouldn't see as much crime?
as far as those that want to sue the gov't for the levee's... well... the core knew they would fail, money was distributed to the city to fix this problem but was over and over put off for other bullshit. Its not like going to mcdonalds and spilling some hot coffee on you. Our tax dollars paid to secure these levee's and the gov't failed to do so.
i've been on the other side... It wasn't the fact that I was in a flood zone (cause im not) or the fact that I could predict how much rain would fall ( I'm not that damn smart) but my house flooded 5 times due to the fact that the city neglected the drainage and the beavers built dams blocking all flow... also due to the fact that one particular farmer didn't want the flow to go thru his cane so he blocked it up.
I was stuck with near 30k worth of damages, 70% of what I own ruined besides the structure... and having to rebuild my life. So this would indeed be my fault and I deserved it?
i've been on the other side... It wasn't the fact that I was in a flood zone (cause im not) or the fact that I could predict how much rain would fall ( I'm not that damn smart) but my house flooded 5 times due to the fact that the city neglected the drainage and the beavers built dams blocking all flow... also due to the fact that one particular farmer didn't want the flow to go thru his cane so he blocked it up.
I was stuck with near 30k worth of damages, 70% of what I own ruined besides the structure... and having to rebuild my life. So this would indeed be my fault and I deserved it?
none of these people had "family" to take care of them? again... we usually get weather forecasting many days before hurricanes hit. Also, who were their caretakers, who was accountable for them if they couldn't take care of themselves? Surely not the gov't.
It's accountability that we have a problem with. People who depend on the system for everything lose the accountability that people have who work for their livelihood. Anyone who uses these programs for anything but a stepping stone to get ahead in the world is abusing the system IMO. This goes beyond citizenship, as a HUMAN, you are responsible for your own actions and fate IMO.
It's accountability that we have a problem with. People who depend on the system for everything lose the accountability that people have who work for their livelihood. Anyone who uses these programs for anything but a stepping stone to get ahead in the world is abusing the system IMO. This goes beyond citizenship, as a HUMAN, you are responsible for your own actions and fate IMO.
I guess I'm just different in that I think those with means should help take care of those without, those who are smart should take care of the stupid. I'm the type of guy that would risk my personal safety and property to save someone else, even if I didn't know them or they didn't deserve it.ZKaudio said:
jnevin
New member
Lestat said:
You earn what you're worth.
Aid should be available when it's needed, not to support generations of families.
And what makes you think that life would be any more affordable to these people if everyone on their level made more? Everything else would get more expensive too. Or do you want to tell everyone in the country what they can make, what companies can charge, and what people can do with their money? That model doesn't work.
a creed
Banned
Lestat said:
<----still delusional
Let me ask you this one last question Lestat...........
Every response to your post is an "opinion", but when I see you post, I see someone who thinks what he's learned in life, and what he believes is indeed "factual"
When I read your posts, I envision someone who thinks he is supernaturally schooled in worldly knowledge and life's lessons. One would think you were 2000 years old.
Please acknowledge that your opinions are just that - opinions, and are (for all intents and purposes) no more "factual" than anyone else who responds here..............
Simply tell me if i'm wrong bro - I'm really not trying to be a prick.
yes, my opinions are just that. I'll admit that.a creed said:
But let me show you how opinions matter.
The opinion of a Taliban leader would state that women are to keep covered in public, theives are to have their hands amputated, and public stoning is an acceptable form of punishment.
So in that case, an opinion is a very powerful thing.
Does my have as big of a real world effect on people? No. But collectively, we can all be a catalyst for positive change.
The pt most of you people are NOT getting is that it WASN'T katrina Directly that flooded these homes, and killed these people. Had our gov't fixed the levee's then there would have been no worry. Sure STILL there were many that should have left, and some that had no means to leave at all. But it wasn't until the day after the storm that the the levee's broke and the destruction started. Everyone thought they were in the clear...
jnevin
New member
a creed said:
Just look at the way he worded the poll. He already had his mind made up that you're a racist if you thought 9/11 was a bigger tragedy.
The Taliban comparison is far fetched too. Lestat's opinions have been comparible to communists, so should he be compared to Lenin? No. He's not that smart.
lol, I'm all for agreeing to disagree here.Lestat said:
anytime? does this also mean all the time? dude. have you ever spent a significant amount of time in an environment where most are being supported by the government? where most are unemployed? unfortunately, I have.
but hey, you're free to believe what you want based on what you know. that's the beauty of opinions
a creed
Banned
Lestat said:
The propblem is - you can't get everyone to agree "ever" - so each party has to give a little - to get a little. You may have to give up one cause, to get another, and vice-versa. This is why there are SO many tough world decisions these days.
Some people aren't willing to give "anything"..............
Smurfy said:
I have dealt with this also... not all my time, but did some part time work for the DA's office and dealt with family's that were totally dependant on the system. I've seen more than I want to see or ever wanted to see... I wouldn't have stayed there no matter what they paid me.
I still don't think that anyone deserved such a cruel death, most that died were not those whom were gangsta, horrible people... but elderly, children, mothers, and those dependant on life support or meds to keep them alive.
I saw the sites, personally... The bodies there in the waters, on the side of the interstate, bloated or decayed...
Imagine leaving someone you love there or watching them die. No one deserves that, and so many things (even within their own doing) could have been done to prevent what happened.
Yes. I've worked with an agency that provides support to distressed children. Children in the court system that have been taken from their parents and just need some stability and support in their lives.Smurfy said:
Its through experiences like that which show me that my life has been a cake walk to some. Girls who are not even teenages getting beat or raped by one or BOTH parents. BABIES who are less than TWO YEARS OLD yet physically abused and sexually molested by their fathers.
Then 20 years later you have people like jnevin and Gambino saying they should take care of themselves, build a stock portfolio, or just die due to darwinism.
Nice, real nice.
That's funny. I spent over 12 years as a Licensed Child Welfare Professional. I investigates homes, took kids from their drug-abusing and criminal parents. I also sent a few kids successfully home to parents who turned things around for t hemselves and their families. In my experience, the majority of the adults/parents/relatives I worked with were able to work but instead chose to milk the system or worse yet, scam the system unbeknownst to the government agency- be it AFDC, Medicaid, SSI, DCFS, etc.Lestat said:
It's like Ive said many times before, people's attitudes of the world are largely a result of their experiences within it.
jnevin said:
I can agree ....... well... partially!
Some can't take care of theirselves, and the majorty that died were those that were dependant on others.
I just don't get the hostility twords those that were left to die there, drown there, stuck in attics, or starve to death... in body bags on the side of the road, in stairwells in the cajun dome, sitting out in the road in a wheel chair, or a baby seat... because they couldn't care for theirselves. I don't condone the behavior of those that stole, or raped, or stayed around to take advantage of the situation... I speak of those whom suffered a very tragic and horrid death.
In 9/11 were there not luding, stealing... etc... YES there was, but it didn't haave the magnifing glass on it like katrina had... why? Well, the towers housed very well educated induviduals... Both men and women. The 9th ward had more than their fair share of poverty. Its eaiser to focus on the poor than it is the success.
Both were tragic, no on in any instance deseverd the death or the turmoil.
I agree, some of the parents are the worst individuals that exist.Smurfy said:
But I look at the children and feel sorry for them, but the reality is, they are more likely to grow up and be just like their parents than they are to be me.
With your experience I am sure you know the proufound impact that being subjected to physical abuse at such a young age has on someone.
here is the organization I was referring to by the way:
http://www.voices4children.com/
sure. but Lestat, not everyone who is being supported by the government instead of working or even looking for work or other opportunities for themselves was abused as a child. and it wasnt just the parents I saw abusing and scamming the system, it was something I saw consistently in the communities and environments I worked in across the board.Lestat said:
of course, but that doesnt mean they arent able to work IMO. by your logic, no one who was raised in such a community should be accountable for their own existence or means because they grew up so poorly. that just doesnt make sense to me. not a very empowering view on humankind.Lestat said:
a creed
Banned
Lestat said:
It doesn't matter how the thread starts it always seems to end up with the same few arguments, and arguments.
Lestat - I know you have your own agendas (just like all of us do) but it seems - SEEMS - that you are always trying to get us to change our ways to YOUR way. I mean - I disagree with about 70% of your beliefs (Religious, political, domestic) but I can live with that and still get along with you.
It seems you would have a hard time doing the same.........
don't misread what I am saying. I am not for handouts, I think it is critically important for us as a society to keep people productive and motivated.Smurfy said:
The see the problem as people in a certain segement of society are not productive or motivated, they feel helpless to some degree, and I'd love to see that "fixed." Like I've said before, with such a wonderful and rich nation we have, there is no excuse for us to have any homeless, or extreme poverty.
Not EVERYONE can be a lawyer, doctor, or CEO, that is just not how it works. We will always need people to take our fast food orders, or to mop and sweep our floors, or tend to our lawns. I'm not saying pay these guys 6 figures, not by any means, I am saying that when something like Katrina happens to a big bunch of them, why not help them out! We obviously had no problem helping out the few thousand WTC victims to the tune of MILLIONS, but we can't give 20,000K to smoeone to rebuild their home in new orleans? they somehow deserved it?
Lestat said:
Sure, I'm all for the government helping out in a temporary sense when it comes to situations such as Katrina and other horrible horrible weather and non-weather tragedies. Past that, why not help out those less fortunate by offering them jobs? One of the most empowering things someone can do for themselves is provide for their own existence and that of their families. So let's get people connected with jobs. That's a start. Also, let's have stricter requirements and monitoring for other government programs where abuse and scamming run rampant. People take advantage because THEY GET AWAY WITH IT. It's a two-way street IMO. clearly, changes need to be made.
EDIT: And while I'm not opposed to the Government providing AID to people who suffered as a result of Katrina, etc, I certainly dont feel like at any point in time it would be apporpriate to REQUIRE individual citizens to DONATE their own monies to any effort. The govt already gets the taxes. That money is going to be spent somewhere. Might as well provide AID in situations such as these but with much better organization and protocols than what has occured in the past.
Lestat, I also believe in helping my fellow man. I just have faith in mankind and the universal moral basis we are all born with. For this reason, I do not think we need government to fill this role. I contribute extensively to causes that I believe in... key word there, I.
a creed
Banned
Lestat said:
I believe (in some ways) that you think you are in the same league as Martin Luther King. Jr.................
He was a "brilliant", "religious", "compassionate", man with a vision and determination that only comes along once in a lietime.............
You need to live life YOUR way - do what you gotta do, and if you don't like something, decide if you want to try and change it - but whenever you do, do it 'cause YOU want to and do it as if NO ONE will ever know who did it.
lol.a creed said:
bro im nowhere near MLK, he was brilliant, well spoken, charismatic, and much more.
But just because I am not in the same league as him, or other influential leaders, doesn't mean that I should sit idle and let the world pass me by. I'm a player in the game of life.
a creed
Banned
KSHARP01 said:this thread --- getting to deep for me ---- CAN'T WE JUST ALL GET ALONG?
kiss and make up or just play with each other?? he he ...... Sometimes you just have to crack yourself up
It may be getting deep, but lestat and I "aren't" arguing..................
I could disagree with him over a topic for DAYS, and then still be able to go out for drinks with him and just have a good time.
You have to be able to seperate the (2)
Lestat CAN - that's why I trust in these debates.
jnevin
New member
Lestat said:
Being self sufficient and independant is a lot different than being selfish. There's also a lot that can be done aside from just giving up on people and giving them an "allowance" that will keep them alive and off the radar, living in poverty.
Personally, if somehow the bottom dropped out of my life and I was in a situation that I had nothing coming in and no way to survive, I'd enlist, earn money, and learn a trade. My grandfather did that when he came over from Ireland, (both of them did actually) and went to school because of the G.I. bill. He became an engineer, eventually started his own company, and was a multi millionaire.
It can be done, it happens every day. People just have to count on themselves if they want anything to happen in life. People can play the race card, the poverty card, whatever they want. It's all excuses. The tools that every person needs are out there.
bluepeter said:
Trust me, someone is getting sued by me by the end of the year.. Than Im going to sit back, and say f*ck you. And wipe my ass with hundreds..
The Shadow said:
also lol at the "(I'm a racist)" tag at the end of the 9/11 choice.
Mr. dB said:
this thread needed some humor.
Lestat why did you put racist next to the 9/11 vote?
my grandfather did the same thing! grew up in rural idaho with a huge farming family, joined the armed services, went to med school and really created a life for himself and his family.jnevin said:
Your grandfather and mine were both smart, responsible oustanding individuals. Mine is someone I look to as an inspiration even though he's been gone over 20 years. I have his med school degree in my house as a reminder.
Unfortunately there are many more people who are less motivated, less intelligent, and less capable. We can't just kill them or ignore them.
Lestat said:
I hope you don't really think only the wealthy died in 9/11. I wouldn't call most firefighters or cops that lost there lives in it wealthy. My reasoning for thinking 9/11 is more tragic has nothing to do with race.
Dude the american dollar is only worth about 10 cents more then ours now that joke is so fucking oldLestat said:
You has a good thread going don't 
with such dumb ass comments.
superqt4u2nv said:Dude the american dollar is only worth about 10 cents more then ours now that joke is so fucking old
Jeez, I can remember when the candian dollar was worth $1.51... Man those were the days.. Cash in $500 american, and get back $750 canadian.. Casino, here i come..
Im gonna vote Katrina.
We knew it was coming.
We did nothing.
Even after it came we sent help too late.
Some elderly women was left outside to die in a lawn chair.
Women were raped in the Superdome, where they were supposed to be getting help.
Police were stealing.
Dr.'s and nurses euthanized patience.
It was anarchy.
9/11 people were helping people and brought together for one cause and the best was brought out in them. Katrina divided people and brought out the worst in them.
We knew it was coming.
We did nothing.
Even after it came we sent help too late.
Some elderly women was left outside to die in a lawn chair.
Women were raped in the Superdome, where they were supposed to be getting help.
Police were stealing.
Dr.'s and nurses euthanized patience.
It was anarchy.
9/11 people were helping people and brought together for one cause and the best was brought out in them. Katrina divided people and brought out the worst in them.
USA could have prevented 9/11 too.. They knew an attack was coming and did nothing.. We had that fucking asshole binladen too, but the fucking pakistan govt, tipped him off and he escaped our missles..
Im talking about the actual event being tragic. The hurrican came and rescue wasnt sent. 9/11 people died, but Katrina you had death, murder, suffering, rape, crime. Just more of a plethora of things going on.
And whether it could have been prevented is debateable.
Take away 9/11 and American's wouldnt stand for strip searches and the long waits in line like they put up with now . Shit people are already forgetting and beginning to bitch.
And whether it could have been prevented is debateable.
Take away 9/11 and American's wouldnt stand for strip searches and the long waits in line like they put up with now . Shit people are already forgetting and beginning to bitch.
We dont have a choice anymore.. Its f*cking annoying at the airports now, they treat everyone like were criminals.. You have to take everything off now, through the metal detectors..belts, shoes..etc..Before you know it, we will be walking through in our boxers and panties..
The trainer took away more carbs and cut my calories more also more cardiogalaxy said:
but eh doing what I have to thanks for asking 
that pisses me off so much. I am probably hitting up Whistler and Vancouver in February. First time I went there the American dollar was worth so much i was a fucking baller there! I was eating steaks and buying drinks for everyone because I knew it wouldn't cost me shit in American dollars.superqt4u2nv said:Dude the american dollar is only worth about 10 cents more then ours now that joke is so fucking old
now we're totally fucked.
G
Gambino
Guest
my six yrs in high school was an awesome tragedy
jnevin
New member
Lestat said:
Exactly. My point is the system has failed them by allowing them to live lives where they are ignored and forgotten. As far as killing, unfortunately they kill each other. It's a waste of life. You can't resort to socialism though.
And lol @ you owning yourself with the race comments.
Canada ROCKSLestat said:
G
Gambino
Guest
well it seems abundantly clear what the pop. of ef regards as a worse tragedy
yeah. I need to do polls like this from time to time as a reality check. I start to think that this is a community of intelligent, progressive thinkers, but then I put up a poll like this, or one that says "do you believe in jesus?" and the reality of this community, and country in general, sets in.Ludendorf said:
a creed
Banned
Lestat said:
I think it may take you a while to fingure out that what YOU "think" about this community is STILL just your opinion................
The only FACT that came out of this poll is that you were biased with one of your (2) choices.
Once you learn that not everyone thinks like you, and that you are wrong as much as "any of us" - then you will be at peace with "yourself" ; Cause' I don't believe that it's the world that needs changing as much as what's inside you bro..............
Good luck..............
G
Gambino
Guest
Lestat said:
this is where i find huge holes in your logic.
basically you are saying "if you don't agree with me, then you are wrong"
doesn't seem like a very intelligent way to have a debate.
face it bor, the majority of peeps here aren't gonna allow you to muscle them into believing your views
Ludendorf said:
Lestat is the vampire god. Vampires don't consider different opinions as being vlad, I mean, valid.
G
Gambino
Guest
hanselthecaretaker said:Lestat is the vampire god. Vampires don't consider different opinions as being vlad, I mean, valid.
i betcha he's gonna come back with the classic
"sheeple" response
I can see that. I suppose I am pretty opinionated. I didn't think everyone would agree with me, but I really thought the poll results would have come out the opposite way, not everyone agreeing with me, but most.Ludendorf said:
Same with the religion thing, I'm surround by non believers, so its always a big wake up call when I step outside that circle, or even california, and see that the majority of the country are fairly devout believers.
G
Gambino
Guest
middle america bor, we are a stubborn lotLestat said:
jnevin
New member
Lestat said:
I don't think you have to be devout to believe there's a god in one way or another. I do think that you need to be a fucking idiot to trounce all over someone's beliefs and say that yours are the only ones that are correct. That's as bad as a nutty southern baptist, most mormons, or a radical muslim. The same logic goes into making a poll that calls people racist from the start and then calling everyone that has a different view a backward thinker. It reminds me of a little kid that throws a tantrum and takes his toys home when things don't go his way.
G
Gambino
Guest
Lestat said:
i've never lived anywhere else bor, and i can tell you that your assumptions on our beliefs are just that, assumptions.
just like not every california resident is a pinko commie, not every mid-westerner is a bible thumper.
stereotypes bor, just stereotypes
its called posturing.jnevin said:
basically when people come at you with extreme views, you take your own to the extreme as well, not because its neccsarily what you believe, but because if you were to take a more moderate approach you'd get nowhere. Both sides posture to the extreme in hopes that at worst case you meet in the middle, but hopefully leaning towards your personal point of view.
Similar threads
