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Which was a bigger tragedy?
- Thread starter Lestat
- Start date
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Gambino
Guest
9/11, 'cause it was a man-made disaster
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Gambino
Guest
Lestat said:
i would assume gov't monies given to katrina victims doubled what was given to 9/11 victims
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Gambino
Guest
Lestat said:
so do you, brian lestat, feel obligated to help?
if so then donate time and/or money
i totally guessed on the gov't monies...i could be way off
I'm not as generous and feel little obligation
i doubt the majority of those folks would do shit for me if
lake superior flooded my home. and i don't expect them to.
and that's why one has a savings and stock portfilio (sp), too handle business when things go bad
lmao. bro, how many of the katrina victims do you think had a stock portfolio?Ludendorf said:
Would they do shit for you? probably not.
we're talking about poor people man.
I helped in a very small way for both 9/11 and katrina, i wish I could take the 9/11 money back though and give it to katrina. Its events like that which really expose the dirty underbelly of this country. As time goes on it becomes more and more apparent how people really don't give a shit about the poor in this country, people somehow think it is just their own fault.
I am where I am today because I was born into a white, middle class, christian family. The road was paved for me to succeed in high school, and then college, and now my career. I'm not so naieve and ignorant to think that EVERYONE has the same opportunities afforded to me. I didn't have the same opportunities as Warren Buffets children, the New Orleans population in general doesn't have a 10th of the means that you or I have.
I'm not saying people need hand outs either, but if we are giving them out, at least give them out fairly and to those who have REAL NEED.
You are telling me that a woman who lost her husband in the trade centers needs a couple of million dollars to live the rest of her life, yet there are people in katrina that couldn't even qualify for the $2000 ATM card! Its pathetic and makes me ashamed of my countrymen.
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Gambino
Guest
Lestat said:
it is fucked up, the cash value of a life/soul
it is also fucked up how much white guilt you have over being successful.
maybe you should donate more money, stop living such an exciting life, because you appear to feel real guilty about it
I'm not guitly about it at all. It disgusts me when an employer complains that they have to pay their janitors minimum wage and health benefits.Ludendorf said:
Much like religion, this was an area in which I was once truly naieve. I thought that all you had to do was work hard, go to college, and life turned out great. That is true, but what about those that will never have a shot at going to college? We still use them to clean our restrooms, take out a trash, wash our car, pick our fruit, yet we can't make sure that they are taken care of as human beings?
rocky_road
New member
Great thread and interesting discussion. So much more profound than the average C&C thread. Lestat brings up good points yet "Ludendorf" ? does also.
9/11 was definetely the bigger tragedy overall, but Hurricane Katrina was perhaps dealt with less sucessfully, making it's after-effects more tragic than the after-effects of 911.
9/11 was definetely the bigger tragedy overall, but Hurricane Katrina was perhaps dealt with less sucessfully, making it's after-effects more tragic than the after-effects of 911.
how was 9/11 a bigger tradegy overall? It involved far less people. More aid came in.rocky_road said:
Katrina affected more than 10 times more people, caused far more damage, a lot of it permanent. People died very slow deaths due to running out of medications, food, and clean water. People are still struggling to get back on their feet today.
If I had to die in either, I'd choose 9/11 either day.
If I had to lose a loved one in one of the two, I'd choose 9/11 either day.
Imagine going back to your home months after the katrina flood and finding your dead mom under the refridgerator?
The 9/11 attacks fo sure.. Both were terrible, but you cant blame mother nature.. She cant be predicted!
Put it this way: Katrina was more devastating, but 9/11 was a bigger tragedy. It showed the error of humans and the results of unnecessary conflict. Natural forces, however, are so far inevitably beyond people's control. Both are sad.
Lestat said:
Where's your support for that statement?
"To date, the average payout from the fund has been $1.8 million, with the highest award, about $7.9 million, going to one of the badly injured victims who survived."hanselthecaretaker said:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/16/national/main593715.shtml
Tell me which katrina victims were compensated in the millions, let alone nearly 8 million?
People need to wake the fuck man. There was a SCIENTOLOGY center in NEW YORK CITY that got 300,000.00 alone, THAT is the fucking tradegy.
Israel went into Lebanon and fucked shit up and Hezbolah, a terrorist group handed out cash to those people who lost their homes so they could rebuild.
What do we do for katrina? shitty ATM cards. Is that going to rebuild a home?
Also the insurance situation in New Orleans was bullshit. People who had hurricane insurance were denied claims because they said the damage was from a flood. Those with flood insurance were denied claims because they would say the damage was from wind! People got the run around and them some. Then after all was said and done, they would deduct the value of their "land" from the payout so in many cases people got checks for a couple of hundred dollars despite losing their entire home and all belongings!
Lestat said:
We'll find out soon enough how much will go towards Katrina victims as well as the area-
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170191,00.html
With Louisiana lawmakers saying their state alone needs $250 billion in federal aid, several GOPers led by Sen. John McCain (search), R-Ariz., said if President Bush wants to rebuild the Gulf Coast, he better find government savings to help foot the bill.
Gonna have to carve out a chunk of the nation's budget for that one. One may think NYC was aided far too much at <$6 billion, but one must also remember how much $$ had to be compensated for. NYC and WTC represent more money, pound for pound, than the Gulf Coast. The average WTC victim's asset losses were probably worth quite a bit more than the average Katrina victim. Sure it's sad when put on those terms but that's reality. The $250 billion in aid Louisiana is asking for could seem just as excessive when put into perspective. Time will tell how much they actually get though.
The WTC attacks though are still costing our government money indirectly overseas as well as stateside. Katrina's tragic effects are undoubtedly more localized.
jnevin
New member
Lestat said:
Insurance companies are the most crooked things on the planet. Be a smarter shopper though.
I don't feel bad for probably 97% of Katrina "victims". I feel for our country because of 9/11. The aftermath of Katrina made me lose faith in the left side of our gov't for causing people to be dependant upon it and unwilling to take responsibility for themselves.
needtogetaas
New member
the downfall of lestat and the bomb squad.
9/11 was far worse it was the first ever attack on main land American soil that is a pretty big fucking deal IMO.
Katrina although tragic is not out of the ordinary huricans happen all the time all over the world and many people die most poor that is not a something that is unique America. I just think that most were suprised by the goverments handeling of things and that is why so many people view it as so very traggic.
Katrina although tragic is not out of the ordinary huricans happen all the time all over the world and many people die most poor that is not a something that is unique America. I just think that most were suprised by the goverments handeling of things and that is why so many people view it as so very traggic.
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UA_Iron
Guest
9/11
with katrina:
people were told to get out, they didnt.
with katrina:
people were told to get out, they didnt.
G
Gambino
Guest
the point i'm making is that each individual should prepare for the worstbluepeter said:
hence saving loot and having ins
needtogetaas
New member
what about the french and england gess we all forget about them attacking us that far back.superqt4u2nv said:
Bikini Mod
New member
I suppose the answer would depend on where it was that you were residing at the time.
radarstoy
New member
9/11 has made me lose faith in our countries responsiblity to take care of it's citizens. Does the governments response to pay the families off in big bucks take away their oversight in heeding the warning sighs? I remember hearing about a women who lost her husband in the wtc. She was paid several million and ended up spending a large chunk shopping. In overall lives lost we have not heard the last of this tragedy. I wouldn't be surprise if the numbers skyrocketed in the next few years from all the crap in the air. Shattered glass can't be good for the lungs.
In terms of money Katrina seems to be the most tragic. You can't sue mother nature and god knows the insurance companies are going to do whatever it takes to minimize payment to the families in need. My heart goes out to them. Land that was passed down through the generations might have been the only thing of value they had, now gone. I am not understanding how one life lost in Katrina does not equal a life lost in 9/11.
Why is it that we as a nation are so quick to provide for other countries in need and not take care of our own? Why is it that we pay millions and millions for people to entertain us, but won't pay a dime to feed someone. It makes no sense to me. Devastation whether it be man-made or nature is still a tragedy.
Lestat your thread has made me stop and reflect how truely screwed-up this world really is.
Peace
In terms of money Katrina seems to be the most tragic. You can't sue mother nature and god knows the insurance companies are going to do whatever it takes to minimize payment to the families in need. My heart goes out to them. Land that was passed down through the generations might have been the only thing of value they had, now gone. I am not understanding how one life lost in Katrina does not equal a life lost in 9/11.
Why is it that we as a nation are so quick to provide for other countries in need and not take care of our own? Why is it that we pay millions and millions for people to entertain us, but won't pay a dime to feed someone. It makes no sense to me. Devastation whether it be man-made or nature is still a tragedy.
Lestat your thread has made me stop and reflect how truely screwed-up this world really is.
Peace
I'm glad this thread opened someone's eyes to a different way of thinking.
I am continually amazed at how conservative this board is, I guess being born and raised in California gives me a different perspective that the rest of the country doesn't really respect so much.
I see this country as an awesome place, so full of opportunity, wealth, luxury, education, intelligence, character, culture, and much more. Its rich with everything, yet we still have to fight bitterly to prevent a rapid consolidation of wealth that once done, can never be undone.
I envison a national where there is no poor. There will always be the elite, the more the better as far as I am concerned, but we should be judged by the quality of life of our poorest citizens, not by the quality of life of our richest. Do we really want to live in Nation like so many undeveloped ones where there is a royal (rich) family or heritage that basically controls all the money and the power in the entire nation?
I am continually amazed at how conservative this board is, I guess being born and raised in California gives me a different perspective that the rest of the country doesn't really respect so much.
I see this country as an awesome place, so full of opportunity, wealth, luxury, education, intelligence, character, culture, and much more. Its rich with everything, yet we still have to fight bitterly to prevent a rapid consolidation of wealth that once done, can never be undone.
I envison a national where there is no poor. There will always be the elite, the more the better as far as I am concerned, but we should be judged by the quality of life of our poorest citizens, not by the quality of life of our richest. Do we really want to live in Nation like so many undeveloped ones where there is a royal (rich) family or heritage that basically controls all the money and the power in the entire nation?
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Gambino
Guest
Lestat said:
this sounds like a budding socialist speech from an elitist californian
lol @ fight wealth consolidation, lenin felt the same way
you are the rich mofo on this thread, why don't you give your own money away to help these poor folks? don't volunteer my money away
bluepeter
New member
Ludendorf said:
I understood the point. I just found it laughable that you seem to think that everyone has the means to sock a bunch of money away and have stock portfolios. That's not reality. I agree people need to be prepared but there is only so much someone working their ass off for minimum wage can do.
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Gambino
Guest
bluepeter said:
it comes down to this: collective responsibillity vs individual responsibillity.
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Gambino
Guest
bluepeter said:
the question is: should help be manadtory, or on a volunteer basis?
it sickens me knowing that lestat is so eager to forfite (sp) my money when I'm scrapping by and he is big timing in san diego
Def 9/11 was worse
Ok. Sure Katrina ruined a lot of lives, and was terrible in its own way. But shit, they should have seen it coming. I of course have sympathy for those that were there...Hell my best friends mama stood the storm and lost every thing that she ever had. She was missing for some time!
Ok. Sure Katrina ruined a lot of lives, and was terrible in its own way. But shit, they should have seen it coming. I of course have sympathy for those that were there...Hell my best friends mama stood the storm and lost every thing that she ever had. She was missing for some time!
a creed
Banned
Lestat - why post something that you KNEW would divide this board - (well somewhat)
IMHO - you don't make THAT much $$$ - I'll easily match wages with you, but this is the first time i've brought this up.
I think you're cool and all, but i would like to see a poll/post question that doesn't end up with you letting everyone know how "well-off" you are (whether you do directly or indirectly) You're not wealthy enough to feel bad about how much you make.
Just my 2cents
IMHO - you don't make THAT much $$$ - I'll easily match wages with you, but this is the first time i've brought this up.
I think you're cool and all, but i would like to see a poll/post question that doesn't end up with you letting everyone know how "well-off" you are (whether you do directly or indirectly) You're not wealthy enough to feel bad about how much you make.
Just my 2cents
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Gambino
Guest
bluepeter said:
agreed
VERY WELL SAID!!!
Y_lifter
New member
As for the loss of life piece of the tragedy, which one was the most avoidable
Katrina was seen coming DAYS ahead of time.
AirPlanes crashing into the Towers on that day was not
The real tragedy IMO was "everyone" including the vics not doing enough
about what they Saw and Knew was coming.
Katrina was seen coming DAYS ahead of time.
AirPlanes crashing into the Towers on that day was not
The real tragedy IMO was "everyone" including the vics not doing enough
about what they Saw and Knew was coming.
ksharp01
New member
Y_lifter said:
True, so true..both by far are something I never have to live through again. But I can speak for most of us that have lived here all our lives can tell you that it is very rare that we do leave -- except for those closest to the coast line. We board up, stock up on suppies and pray for the best. It isn't always that easy to pack and go when so many times it really hasn't been so bad. This was classified as one of the most deadliest catastrophies in HISTORY!! No one could of predicted that, and it wouldn't of even of been unliveable even then if the levees wouldn't of given way. We are all STILL suffering a great deal down here. Nothing will be exactly the same. Our economy has strongly been impacted. It is worst for those that were already poor...now the cost of living has sky rocketed....to get insurance is almost impossible in some areas and for the others you have to pay for it with a arm and 2 legs. Both are very tragic and it is just to hard to call on this one. I can't speak for the families that were directly impacted with 9/11 but from shows I have seen on dateline etc...most have picked up the pieces and moved on. I just hope to see that in our near future....but I doubt it. I made alright money before all of this and now income has dropped dramatically and price of everything else is up. So even though I was on outshirts and not directly in Katrina's path..even someone like me has lost. I am still thankful and count my blessings. I had to personally deal with so many that lost so much. It is hard to look those families in the face as they cry to you about all they lost, personal belongings and family.
Sorry so long just very passionate about this topic.
Y_lifter
New member
The Gulf Coast after Katrina wasn't coined the Worst Natural disaster in known
History because it was just "Sort a bad".
When S Fla was hit by Andrew and Central Fla by the 3 back to back storms, I thought upon seeing the moderate devastation across such a wide area that things would never be the same. I remember driving around for miles and miles it was just mess after mess after mess. How would they ever get all of this cleaned and fixed up ?
It took time, not nearly as much time as I thought. But things are nearly back to normal now, with a few exceptions and reminders 2 years later for us at least.
Things can be replaced
Houses can be rebuilt
Jobs can be had even though they may not pay as much at first
Trash and debris can be cleaned up and hauled off
But once a life is gone, it will Never come back no matter what you do.
Hang tough..
History because it was just "Sort a bad".
When S Fla was hit by Andrew and Central Fla by the 3 back to back storms, I thought upon seeing the moderate devastation across such a wide area that things would never be the same. I remember driving around for miles and miles it was just mess after mess after mess. How would they ever get all of this cleaned and fixed up ?
It took time, not nearly as much time as I thought. But things are nearly back to normal now, with a few exceptions and reminders 2 years later for us at least.
Things can be replaced
Houses can be rebuilt
Jobs can be had even though they may not pay as much at first
Trash and debris can be cleaned up and hauled off
But once a life is gone, it will Never come back no matter what you do.
Hang tough..
I just love to hear all this... "they should have got out crap over and over... , Some COULDN'T GET OUT. Some tried to get out but were stuck on the highways for days without fuel because there were none in sight... Some were stubbor (yes I agree with that) and some were in the hands of others and couldn't get out on their own (like the nursing homes, kids... etc ) We all saw it coming, and actually
Her direct hit was not at first intended for NO area, though they did expect some winds and rain from her... Now in a few day she shifted and the city is supposed to evacuate completely? Do you know how much traffic that is trying to escape in a days notice? Apparently those saying... oh they should have left have no earthly Idea how hard it is to evacuate when thousands of others are doing the same thing.. and there is no Gas, no food, no water to be found.
Some were not so fortunate to have a stock pile of emergency items as others, some were not as fortunate to be able to afford a hotel room in some other state, just incase.
I left, YES I DID... I was fortunate enough to have the money and the transportation to get the hell out because I didn't want to chance it. But not everyone was as fortunate as me. This was the first hurricane I ever left for, i've stuck the rest out sitting there watching the wind beat my home and belonging up.
I've still not completed the damages to my home... My sister had 7' of water in hers and got the run around from the city to even repair one thing due to the area. She and her family of 5 lived in a home with no walls for months, she is now, finally getting things in order. The gov't didn't give her shit... ! Her insurance didn't help her with crap either.
Both instances were terrible, I don't put one above the other... both tragic, and horrid and never would want either to happen again.
Her direct hit was not at first intended for NO area, though they did expect some winds and rain from her... Now in a few day she shifted and the city is supposed to evacuate completely? Do you know how much traffic that is trying to escape in a days notice? Apparently those saying... oh they should have left have no earthly Idea how hard it is to evacuate when thousands of others are doing the same thing.. and there is no Gas, no food, no water to be found.
Some were not so fortunate to have a stock pile of emergency items as others, some were not as fortunate to be able to afford a hotel room in some other state, just incase.
I left, YES I DID... I was fortunate enough to have the money and the transportation to get the hell out because I didn't want to chance it. But not everyone was as fortunate as me. This was the first hurricane I ever left for, i've stuck the rest out sitting there watching the wind beat my home and belonging up.
I've still not completed the damages to my home... My sister had 7' of water in hers and got the run around from the city to even repair one thing due to the area. She and her family of 5 lived in a home with no walls for months, she is now, finally getting things in order. The gov't didn't give her shit... ! Her insurance didn't help her with crap either.
Both instances were terrible, I don't put one above the other... both tragic, and horrid and never would want either to happen again.
G
Gambino
Guest
is it a strange concidence that most of the katrina voters are not american citizens??
Katrina certainly had a direct affect on more people's lives, and left a much larger mess to be cleaned up, but what was the death toll? 3000+ people died on the spot at the WTC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania.
Why do they need to be ranked? Can't we just say that they both sucked?
As for the "Katrina could have been prevented" suggestion, tell that to the people of the Mississippi and Alabama Gulf Coast.
Why do they need to be ranked? Can't we just say that they both sucked?
As for the "Katrina could have been prevented" suggestion, tell that to the people of the Mississippi and Alabama Gulf Coast.
teachnically, the gov't should not have the right to force individual citizens to donate their own personal finances in any situation, IMO. plenty of people WILL, and CAN, and from a moral standpoint, yeah they SHOULD, but that should be up to the individual themselves.
as far as comparing the two horrible tragedies that occured, there is utterly no point at all in that. totally unproductive. and totally relative.
as far as comparing the two horrible tragedies that occured, there is utterly no point at all in that. totally unproductive. and totally relative.
feisty11975
New member
These were both horrible life changing events for a lot of people. The effects will be felt for years to come. There is absolutely no way for me to vote on which was worse.
Mr. dB said:
When I say katrina, I am talking about the storm as a whole, not just NO and LA area. Many of lives, homes were lost. These people lost EVERYTHING... YOU HEAR ME... EVERYTHING. Baby books, clothes, memories, homes, their children their siblings... mothers, fathers, They had not a damn thing to go back home to .. nothing!
here is a recent on the toll of childeren that died
Family's were seperated, kids taken to one city and mother to another and father to another... There were people posting up flyers to find their family or their child because when the buses came they seperated them that way. Some ended up in Texas, some in Ok, some in SC, some in NC... all the way up to the far north... Imagine not knowing where your child is, where your mother is.. being stuck in a facility with no parents, or not knowing if your child is alive or dead by now... (due to the violence at the cajun dome) For one second imagine that. They should have left, yes... but if you have ever been to the over crowed suburbs of NO, you will see that If everyone (even if that were possible ) try to evacuate at one time it would still have been a cluster fuck.
It tears at the deepest of my core for anyone to say that these children deserved dying because they had no means to evacuate. The city, the Governor, the Mayor... did not force the issue. Most in the 9th ward had no means of leaving, and if you paid much attention, alot were stranded on the highway and overpasses trying to walk their way to safe grounds. These people wanted out, just didn't have transportation that they were promised.
Buses were sitting there and no one picking up those whom wanted to leave.
T
The Shadow
Guest
"choose carefully"
LOL - like we should be "scared" to vote
LOL - like we should be "scared" to vote
http://jwbartlett.com/katrina/JWB.katrina.245.JPG
Imagine your home in this subdivision... and then going back and finding your parent, or grandmother, or sibling.. whom couldn't leave but was promised that someone would come and evacuate them... dead...
Imagine your home in this subdivision... and then going back and finding your parent, or grandmother, or sibling.. whom couldn't leave but was promised that someone would come and evacuate them... dead...
I just re-read the pole question.. and those poor people that lost everything, I just heard on the news that some of them are suing the city. What the f*ck for? How can you sue the city for something that happened from mother nature?? Its a shame they lost what they did but cmon already.. Sueing the city takes the cake.. Unfuckingbelievable..
bluepeter
New member
ItalianMuscle27 said:
Something called levees. You know, the things that the city and state chintzed on for years? The things that subsequently broke and caused the death and devestation? Katrina herself as a natural disaster was bad but the damage was caused by negligence. Then again, America is the country where you can sue for the coffee being too hot or the instructions on your new RV about the cruise control not being clear enough.
feisty11975
New member
bluepeter said:
BRAVO! Yes, they can sue the city and the state for this disaster. The hurricane itself was not an issue in New Orleans. They caught the weaker side of the storm and there would have been no flooding there if the levees had not broken. And with the levees being broken, the pumps did not work. So they were unable to pump out the water. Its tragic what happened...Really it is.
Does anyone remember Hurricane Rita? This one affected our area...more the South Central and south Western part of Louisiana. Now the damage was caused by the hurricane and the rising tide from the storm. Lots and lots of people lost everything they had with this storm. I know many that only had the clothes on their backs once the storm rolled through. Blame mother nature for this one but not for the termoil in New Orleans.
Well if thats the case, I think Im going to sue my city/state for something than.. I dont know what, but Ill think of something.. Maybe sue mcdonalds for giving me cold food, ice in my coke, and a busted ketchup packet that got all over my clothes. I had an interview that afternoon.. assholes!
I used to say the EXACT same thing to liberals bro. Don't you complain unless you are willing to give up what YOU have!Ludendorf said:
Our country is a society, a system, a community.
Imagine if paying for trash service was voluntary. Think about it. You'd have a few people paying to get their trash taken every week, but those who wanted to save money would opt to get it once a month, or never and say they would do it themselves. And then you'd end up with a total shithole.
Me donating everything I have to katrina victims does shit. the federal goverment ponying up some tax dollars to actually help people as opposed to line company's pockets like haliburton will go a very long way.
I completely disagree.Smurfy said:
We are a society, and I think part of being a civilized nation is that we TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN.
Anytime someone uses welfare, food stamps, subsidized education loans, and other forms of assistance it is taking from people with means and giving it to those without and it turn makes this nation better for all.
jnevin
New member
Lestat said:
The welfare system and everything associated with it has been one of the worst things to happen to the poor in this country. It has caused generations to live in poverty instead of going out and working. People have become completely dependant upon the system to take care of them instead of using it as a temporary crutch.
here's the facts of life bro.jnevin said:
some people are fucking lazy, and will never do shit to help themselves (except maybe steal).
So we are going to end up paying for them one way or another. Do you want to pay for them in jail? or maybe do smoething to try to get them on their feet and productive?
At least wellfare money stays in the system. They use it to buy consumer goods, food, etc which means profits for businesses.
What is the alternative? create a bloated poor class where crime is rampant? that doesn't help your quality of life.
jnevin
New member
Lestat said:
I grew up in West Philly, so I've seen the effects of these facts of life, bro. Lemme tell you something. Probably 80% of the people in my neighborhood were already stealing in one way or another, selling drugs, or involved in some type of illegal activity. They had money coming in but were ripping off the system. I would gladly pay for them to be in jail rather than have my friend's 4 year old brother finding bags of drugs on the ground, or needles in the playground. It's a system that keeps people alive, but barely gives enough to live on. If you work, they cut what you get and you live on the same money but end up working for it.
I work my ass off and pay more taxes than probably 95% of this board. Do I want my work to pay for some fuck that's going to go home and put his shitty clothes on and put dirt on his kids' faces so it's more convincing for his welfare case worker?
You know how many times I saw people sell their food stamps to get drugs or booze? Don't talk about shit you don't know, bro. Stick with weed, living in your buddy's house, and going to concerts.
Lestat said:
I admit I'm not too up to date on katrina but...
didn't the news say, leave town there's a hurricane coming? Like 3 days before it hit... Levy or nature, there was still a warning that a dangerous condition would exist, regardless of crowding, there was still a reasonable ability to leave if one really wanted to... right?
on 9/11 the first hint they got that they needed to get out was "boom" which, for most, was wayy too late.
I'm sure someone will chime in here with some facts to squash my argument... but, this is my general take for a 3rd party onlooker's standpoint.
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