Which Squats would YOU choose and Why?

[havoc]

Ok, here is the scenario, You squat every week , heavy , perfect form, probably too low. One week you do around 3 sets of 8 reps with 455, next week you do 3 sets of 5 reps with 495 always ending each squat session with a set of 20-25 reps with 315. Also in that same week you add some deadlifts maybe 3 days prior to your leg day always deadlifting some ridiculous amount of shit taxing the living fuck out of your body. Now lets say you want to maybe cut out regular, traditional squats for one week and continue to alternate meaning one week you would squat and another week you would do:
A. Front Squats
B. Smith Machine Squats
C. Feet touching, pointing straight ahead high rep squats.

Which one would you choose and why? Keeping in mind that you have 4-5 exercises to go after your squat session is done. Please dont say start off with Leg press because that isnt an option. peace

 

[havoc]

Thought I would get some replies to this bitch, here is some advice, where the weight is included enter your own ok? Lifting like this all the time taxes the body so what would you do?

 

[The Ranger]

Front Squats...Period. No question about it....And, I would do them on the Smith Machine, simply because of the balance aspect of the movement.

The thing I like about front squats is it requires you to use perfect form. If you bow your back even remotely, the bar catches....Now for a little twist....

Take your time and go up to a 4 rep max....Take a decent break....Then do strip sets, with no rest, to utter failure.....Hence the reason for the Smith Machine....If not strip sets, the traditional squat rack will suffice....Heh heh heh.....Of course it never fails when ya do them in the rack, you get tired, your form slips a bit, and the entire bar slides right off your delts.....And as always, there is a bunch of hot chicks watching....

Heh heh heh.....

Straight legged deadlifts, done Sumo style with heavy dumbells is nice too Bro....

Ranger

 

[Latimer]

If I understood that correctly, you are doing deadlifts every other week.

I would choose Front Squats on the week that I deadlift. They'd focus on the quads and would be easier on your back and glutes which are already getting hit with the deads that week.

 

[The Ranger]

That's a Yep-Per...

Ranger

 

[spentagn]

i just tried this

just last week i alternated my squat routine due to deadlifts. i went to smith machine squats and then did hack squats just for the hell of it. That was on sunday and i can still barely walk.

 

[Japanese machine]

hello havoc;
first of all i dont do smith machines...EVER so thats out for me, secondly i never do feet touching because for me it puts stress on my knees, and its difficult to stay perfectly centered and still, unless on smithmachine.

IF it were me, i would do front squats, the isolate the quads more in comparison to the traditional squat; perhaps a 10lbs plate under each heal would isolate the quads even further.

i get the impression that you like heavy deads; so do i, but as you know the glutes come into play quite a bit when doing deads, therefore, doing the traditional squat weekly with deads, would put additional stress on the glutes, on the other hand, front squats will allow better recovery from both dead and squat sessions; and on top of that better quad isolation.

btw i love front squats, i actually prefer it to the traditional; because of the very reason i mentioned above.

hope this helps a bit

 

[da big thinker]

i would def pick C;for myself,i train exactly the way you stated and w/ practically the same weight;there is no sub for squats,but as you stated,it is taxing especially when considering you still have additionnal compound movements up ahead of the same workout.i alternate w/ C and this has enhanced that "sweep" i was looking for,finally giving me the "X" appearance i've been looking for.PEACE!

 

[havoc]

Well Holy Shit, I leave for a green tea excursion, come back and have all this beautiful info to look at, sincere thanks for all the replies. Much Love. peace

 

[AAP]

I think front squats are far underestimated. As Ranger said, they require you to use perfect form and concentrate on the stretch and squeeze.

But I don't use low reps with them. I usually go 225 for 12-15 reps. I do mine with free weights, ankles about 6 inches apart, heels raised on board (to the keep the stress on my knees and not my heels and glutes) and I go deep until my hams are pressed tight against my calves.

 

[The Shadow]

Havoc - my .02

Based on your choices - I would include Front Squats on the Smith. Regular squats on the Smith with the feet together and way out in front of you throws emphasis right on the quads in the same way that sissy squats do. My top pick would be hacks though.

 

[I'D RATHER BE DEADLIFTING]

You are much stronger than myself and do much higher volume, but I would choose the front squats from that list also. They should do you well and if you haven't been doing them, expect to get sore as fuck!!

 

[FrankRizzo]

Man, I was gonna say smith squats, I have never tried front squats ever. By reading this post I am all excited for leg day now. Lookin forward to being sore!!!

...Sounds to me like Fronts get the nod Havoc.

 

[havoc]

Well thanks again brothers, this has helped me alot and I have decided on the following for this week.

Front Squats
Hack Squats
Feet together Squats(smith)
Single Leg leg press
Lying leg curl/superset with ext.
Single leg curl/superset with ext.

You guys have no idea how important this shit is to me, sincere thanks again, peace

 

[AGENT SHAGWELL]

Front squats.....but I'd do it with a wider sumo stance.

Reasoning: influences more muscle groups (quads, hams, abduc, adduc, glute) as well support groups (abs, back), requires a higher degree of form and concentration, and more joint stability

 

[Warik]

Another vote here for Front Squats. The adverse effects of smith machine squats on one's knees are enough to keep me away from that. Front Squats have been shown time and time to actually be more effective for quad development than back squats. "Feet touching, pointing straight ahead high rep squats?" I don't like high rep stuff...

Front squats for me.

-Warik

 

[The Shadow]

Well thanks again brothers, this has helped me alot and I have decided on the following for this week.

Front Squats
Hack Squats
Feet together Squats(smith)
Single Leg leg press
Lying leg curl/superset with ext.
Single leg curl/superset with ext.

You guys have no idea how important this shit is to me, sincere thanks again, peace

havoc - I think that looks very good.

BTW - my hams REALLY improved when I began supersetting Stiff-leg dumbell deads with seated leg curls. Grab a pair of dumbells(I use 80) and do the deads right beside the leg curl machine. This grouping provides a stretch position that is followed immediately by a contracted position. I have been doing the following leg program and my hams as well as vastus medialis(right above the knee) have improved dramatically:

Leg extensions - simply as a warm up.
Leg curls as warm up
Use standing calf machine to stretch calves

Squats 4-5 sets of 20-6 reps using 135-365
Hack Squats (super deep) 4 sets of 8-12 reps using 2 45's on each side
4 rounds of the deads-leg curls keeping reps low(6-8) on the deads and higher on the leg curls(12-15)

4 rounds of supersetting leg extensions(8-10 with a 2 second hold at the top) and leg press(6-10 reps with feet together and at the very top of the platform - 5 plates per side)

Good luck Wigga.

 

[The Shadow]

Another vote here for Front Squats. The adverse effects of smith machine squats on one's knees are enough to keep me away from that. Front Squats have been shown time and time to actually be more effective for quad development than back squats. "Feet touching, pointing straight ahead high rep squats?" I don't like high rep stuff...

Front squats for me.

-Warik

Warik - can you explain why smith squats are worse for the knees than free weight squats?

 

[havoc]

Cornholio, will give that a go, just needed something different, heavy squatting every week has become monotonous and hard on the mind. peace

 

[THeMaCHinE]

I will second everybody's sentiments on front squats. I don't like them with smith machines though.

Another idea that is a little out there, that I like to employ on non-traditional leg workout days is interval sprints. I start out at a walking pace, then bump the treadmill up to 12 mph and go. I consider each 1 - 1 1/2 minute sprint a set. I do about five sets with a minute or two of fast-paced walking inbetween. Then I move on to the next exercise of my workout (in this case, hack squats).

You could also try skier squats as described by Ian King on the hack squat. You use relatively light weight, keep your feet close and do reps using the following protocol: 1/4 way down, count to six, 1/2 way down, count to six, 3/4 way down, count to six, explode back to the top. Do six reps this way, followed by six full range reps with no pause. Do 3 - 4 total sets.

Since you like deading, you could also do trap bar DLs.

Just a few more ideas...

 

[Phemomena]

front squats, but rather than on the smith, get a couple 2.5 plates (the lil tiny ones) and stick 'em under your toes... that'll help keep your balance properly...

 

[The Shadow]

Cornholio, will give that a go, just needed something different, heavy squatting every week has become monotonous and hard on the mind. peace

True dat on the wearing down of the psyche. It's worse than the physical beating that your body takes

 

[Thick dog]

Front squats are a good exercise, no doubt, but it seems as though regular back squatting every week has gotten you your impressive physique and leg strength, so unless you are starting to experiencing pain while squatting every week, I would'nt change anything. It seems to be working. Of course, I use more of a football player and powerlifter's mentality and can't imagine not squatting every week.

 

[havoc]

Thick jumps in and fucks my head up, Thick and I have discussed this before and I actually agree with him. Thanks for fucking my shit up again bro. peace

 

[The Shadow]

Thick jumps in and fucks my head up, Thick and I have discussed this before and I actually agree with him. Thanks for fucking my shit up again bro. peace

Havoc - you don't have to squat every week to maintain or even build more size. Look at the crop of top IFBB bbers. None of them squat at this point in their career. Once you have good size, I feel that you have optimized the neural pathways so that practically any exercise, as long as it is done with intensity, will be effective at building size. Why would you continue to do an exercise if you feel stale on it?? You wouldn't do, say, straight-bar curls week in and week out and never change anything if you were stale would you??

 

[havoc]

Cornholio, thats the type of reponse I need to hear brother, word to that knowledge, peace wigga

 

[Thick dog]

Well, what it comes down to is what you are looking for. If you already feel you have enough size and are looking more for definition and shape, you may be better off doing some exercises other than sqauts every week. If you are still striving for more size, squatting every week will probably get you there quicker. While many pro's no longer squat, let's not forget that they got all of their size through squatting heavy for many years, but now they really can't afford the injuries that can come with squatting, not to mention the heavy drug usage allows them to keep their tremendous size without having to squat every week. you already have some impressive size and stength, so it depends on the direction you want to head...

 

[havoc]

I would like to increase my size and strength until I die, this means I am fucked. peace

 

[supersizeme]

No, the fact that your mother rocks you to sleep every night while humming Green Acres as you nuzzle her breasts at 25 years of age means you are fucked homie.

 

[The Shadow]

You're not fucked...

Well, what it comes down to is what you are looking for. If you already feel you have enough size and are looking more for definition and shape, you may be better off doing some exercises other than sqauts every week. If you are still striving for more size, squatting every week will probably get you there quicker. While many pro's no longer squat, let's not forget that they got all of their size through squatting heavy for many years, but now they really can't afford the injuries that can come with squatting, not to mention the heavy drug usage allows them to keep their tremendous size without having to squat every week. you already have some impressive size and stength, so it depends on the direction you want to head...

Thick - you make it sound like squats are the only beneficial exercise to do for legs. Look at an MRI of the muscles involved in squatting. YOu can hit those and more by doing alternate exercises.

You do NOT have to squat to build size and power. Generalities like that really give me the red-ass. Someone who is tall and long waisted would be wasting their time doing squats. They would be much better off doing leg presses or even deadlifts.

Look - when you reach a plateau on an exercise like bench, what do you do to increase you strength? Almost ALWAYS, there is a slight muscle imbalance that is preventing you from improving. If you have trouble on the lock-out, work on tris, mid-range - work on anterior delts. Work on these alternate exercises will the provide the stimulus needed for the bench poundages to start moving again.

Havoc - I understand your delima, but think of it this way. WOuld you choose to continue to pound away on an exercise that you are starting to dread(lack of focus always leads to training injuries), or once a friggin week do alternate exercises that will foucs on the smaller muscles that truly lead to an outstanding physique. Squat once every two weeks but focus on refining the other week. Don't forget that you will still be doing some form of squatting during you non-squat week.

As open minded as you are Havoc - I can't understand why this is such a hard call for you. Take a chance and make a change. What do you have to lose?

 

[Warik]

Warik - can you explain why smith squats are worse for the knees than free weight squats?

From Charles Poliquin's The Poliquin Principles pg. 72

In regard to machines that attempt to duplicate the Squat, the basic problem is that many of them can reduce the pressure on the back and place significant stress on the knees. Take for example the ever-popular Smith machine. The Smith bar makes it possible to squat in a manner that allows you to lean back against the barbell, thereby supporting your back and minimizing hip extension during the exercise. What this does is take the hamstrings out of the movement. The hamstrings, however, are the muscle group that helps stabilize the kneecap. The result is unnaturally high shearing forces that try to pull the joint apart, as well as tremendous stress on the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL), one of the primary ligaments in the knee capsule that provides stability to the knee. For this reason, I would discourage you from using the Smith machine, or at least only use it on an infrequent basis.

The illustration on the left shows the shearing forces placed on the knee during a Smith machine squat. These are caused by the lack of involvement of the hamstrings. The illustration on the right shows how the force dissipates throughout the lower leg when performing a Squat.

-Warik

 

[havoc]

Good call, I'm going to do the workout I outlined above for a while, I believe it will help, Corn, thanks bro. peace

 

[supersizeme]

that makes sense, warik. just from the fact that my hams are guaranteed to be torn up after squatting free weight style. hell they are still sore right now from monday's abuse. that and just watching people squat on a smith machine looks more painful than free weight squatting the way they are slammed up against the bar completely supported by it. i have never done smith machine squats and will continue to do them free weights style.

 

[Thick dog]

To each his own. Like I said I still lift from a powerlifting and athletic point of view and backsquatting is the exercise that allows me to perform at the highest possible level. Until I start focusing more on bodybuilding, which could be any time now, I feel more comfortable making regular squats the backbone of my leg workout.

 

[The Shadow]

IAN KING:

The Evil Smith Machine

Q: I read in one of your past articles that you think the leg-extension machine has its place, despite all the recent backlash against it. How about the evil Smith machine? I do regular squats and benches, but sometimes throw in some Smith machine work too. That okay?

A: Yes, how about that "evil'" Smith machine! I'm surprised that there hasn't been some sort of anti-American senate inquiry into the use of this poor device! I really don't know what all the fuss has been about, although I suspect that some appreciate and exploit fully the marketing benefits of sensationalism, all at the expense of some poor old harmless piece of steel. Machines don't cause injuries! They don't do a thing in fact, short of sit there. Humans do things on them.

When you "threw in" the Smith machine did it do anything for you? Did it cause you muscle pain or fatigue? Well if it did, you don't need to ask me if it worked! You hold the answer. And you don't need to seek my forgiveness for being a non-conformist and doing things on that evil Smith machine. That's what the confession box is for!

 

[supersizeme]

Thick I bet if you focused less on other male crotches during your workouts your intensity could be increased even more.

 

[JustinM]

i agree with front squats as well..thye emphasize quads more and it will be more fun because you are doing a new routine so will probably gain stregnth pretty quickly...peace

and wow, i havent seen rather be deadlifting in a while..

 

[The Shadow]

Re: IAN KING:

The Evil Smith Machine

Q: I read in one of your past articles that you think the leg-extension machine has its place, despite all the recent backlash against it. How about the evil Smith machine? I do regular squats and benches, but sometimes throw in some Smith machine work too. That okay?

A: Yes, how about that "evil'" Smith machine! I'm surprised that there hasn't been some sort of anti-American senate inquiry into the use of this poor device! I really don't know what all the fuss has been about, although I suspect that some appreciate and exploit fully the marketing benefits of sensationalism, all at the expense of some poor old harmless piece of steel. Machines don't cause injuries! They don't do a thing in fact, short of sit there. Humans do things on them.

When you "threw in" the Smith machine did it do anything for you? Did it cause you muscle pain or fatigue? Well if it did, you don't need to ask me if it worked! You hold the answer. And you don't need to seek my forgiveness for being a non-conformist and doing things on that evil Smith machine. That's what the confession box is for!

I also find it interesting that the ones with a beef against the Smith are the ones who have never tried the exercise.

No offense but it reminds me of a qoute:

"It's hard to use your peripheral vision when being led by the nose."

Peace bros.

 

[Warik]

Re: IAN KING:

When you "threw in" the Smith machine did it do anything for you? Did it cause you muscle pain or fatigue?

So do lat pulldowns behind the neck.

=)

-Warik

 

[The Shadow]

Re: Re: IAN KING:

So do lat pulldowns behind the neck.

=)

-Warik

Tue dat!! Those are not movements for the lats anyway. They are mid-range movements for mid back.

Try this: face away from the pulldown stack and use a rope grip with 50-65% of your normal weight. This allows you to pull low enuf to contract the midback muscles while allowing independent shoulder rotation thru-out the movement. Facing away also negates having to lean and crook the neck to clear the bar.

 

[Warik]

That sounds so complicated. Do I have to cross my legs and close my eyes too? I'll stick to chins. =)

Machines machines...

-Warik

 

[AGENT SHAGWELL]

I'm gonna have to agree with Thick Dog on this (as much as it pains me). And not agree with Corn. Squating every week, is the way to go. (Although, I must say I train with powerlifters, and athletes, not BBs)

Naturally variety is good, and alters your routine to optimize as many actin-myosin pairings in the target muscle as possible. But Squats, hands down, is the best in repects to the quanity of muscles it targets for legs. it should be the basis of you leg routine, while others are supplemental.

 

[The Shadow]

That sounds so complicated. Do I have to cross my legs and close my eyes too? I'll stick to chins. =)

Machines machines...

-Warik

What is complicated is trying to figure out why you would be doing behind-the-neck pulldowns to work LATS in the first place....That exercise does not hit the lats.

 

[Milhouse]

Here's a couple goodies some fella showed me a couple years ago.

Barbell Hack Squats: You wont be able to use as much weight as the machine but its killer.

Full Deadlifts of a box: Like convention deadlifts only you stand on a 12-15 inch box, platform. One of those fruity step boxes works well. The bottom of the movement is like a full squat and this move really kicks the shit out of the glutes, hamst, quads. Plus everytime I do a few weeks of these my reg deads and squats go way up.

Front Squats(Prefer Barbell) If ya wanna use the smith fine. If you want to learn how to balance and build muscle and strength use the barbell. Doesnt really matter anyways if you are looking to keep things fun, interesting and challenging.

The most toughest move I have found for legs/lower body would have to be Dumbell Squats for like sets of 15-20 reps. Pretty good way to end a leg workout for the variety alone.
Oh and plus any of those crazy ass moves Ian King has in the first 3 weeks of the limping series.

 

[Warik]

What is complicated is trying to figure out why you would be doing behind-the-neck pulldowns to work LATS in the first place....That exercise does not hit the lats.

You must have misunderstood my original comment.

Your defense of smith squats: "Ian King says that if you feel it then it works and it's good."

Lat pulldowns behind the neck (entitled such due to the fact that they are done at the lat pulldown machine, yet are incorrectly done behind the neck) are known to wreak havoc on one's shoulders (unless you actually believe that there's nothing wrong with doing lat pulldowns behind the neck or behind-the-neck presses and other such exercises). You do, however, "feel it" when you do these clearly incorrect exercises, thus making "if you feel it then it's good!" a moot point.

You'll never find me using a smith machine for anything aside from hanging my towel. People can use the smith machine all they want... they'll wish they were doing real squats a decade or two from now when they walk more wobbly than a retired pro football player because of their fragile knees.

-Warik