When do you think the end of the world will come?

[FreakMonster]

Re: Error....

.

If you study scripture, you can't nail down the day or hour of Jesus' return. You can't even fortell a year. However, it is clear that Jesus returns at the battle of Armageddon. This happens at the end of Daniel's 70th week (last 7 years). At the beginning of this seven years is the confirmation of a covenant that enables Israel to build it's third temple.

Sorry for the stupid question but what is the significance of Daniel's 70th week? Who is Daniel? Where are Israels 2 other temples? So your saying that when Israel builds it's third temple when Jesus returns?

 

[Baby Gorilla]

Re: Re: Error....

Sorry for the stupid question but what is the significance of Daniel's 70th week? Who is Daniel? Where are Israels 2 other temples? So your saying that when Israel builds it's third temple when Jesus returns?

Daniel Chaper 9 details this....

And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 9:20-27 (KJV)

The "week" spoken of here are 7-year periods. 69 have passed, one remains. The consistency is the Jewish Temple.

The temple was constructed on the Temple Mount (acheologically proven in spite of some people's effort to propagandize otherwise). It was destroyed when Israel went into captivity in Babylon. The temple was rebuilt (2nd temple). That one was destroyed shortly after Jesus (the Messiah) was crucified.

One temple remains that must be built on the Temple Mount. This third temple comes at the end of human history (before Jesus returns to rule). When you see a treaty or agreement that makes a "lasting" peace between Palestinians and Israel and enables the Temple Mount to be shared, you will know two things....

1. We are now in the last 7 years before Jesus returns (more or less).

2. The man who made the peace agreement possible is very likely the Antichrist. This would be confrimed 3 1/2 years later when the temple is completed, animal sacrifice resumes, and this man enters the temple, stops the animal sacrificing, and tells Israel to worship him as god.

Powerful stuff if you see it with understanding. The whole humanistic and atheistic world is trying to forge peace in the Middle East. They are fulfilling Bible prophecy and don't even realize it. Why is a chunk of dirt smaller than the size of Rhode Island the biggest disputed over real estate in the entire world? It's because it's a spiritual matter. What happens in the spiritual reflects and manifests in the world. Satan wants for himself what God has claimed as His own. When God chose to place His name in Jerusalem, it became Satan's top priority to claim it for himself. Hence all the wars fought over that little nation.

 

[Rogue Warrior]

The 70 weeks have already been fulfilled:

* 160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Daniel 9:24-27 ; The 'Seventy Weeks' of Daniel) "And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfillment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place." (Miscellanies 1:21)
* 160AD Tertullian "Vespasian, in the first year of his empire, subdues the Jews in war; and there are made lii years, vi months. For he reigned xi years. And thus, in the day of their storming, the Jews fulfilled the lxx hebdomads predicted in Daniel ." (An Answer to the Jews 8.) (On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel)
* 200AD Hippolytus of Rome (70 weeks) "21. For this reason, then, the angel says to Daniel, "Seal the words, for the vision is until the end of the time." But to Christ it was not said "seal," but "loose" the things bound of old; in order that, by His grace, we might know the will of the Father, and believe upon Him whom He has sent for the salvation of men, Jesus our Lord. He says, therefore, "They shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall; "which in reality took place. For the people returned and built the city, and the temple, and the wall round about. Then he says: "After threescore and two weeks the times will be fulfilled, and one week will make a covenant with many; and in the midst (half) of the week sacrifice and oblation will be removed, and in the temple will be the abomination of desolations." 22. For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ is come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested, 179 viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations. These things being thus recounted, the prophet again describes another vision to us. For he had no other care save to be accurately instructed in all things that are to be, and to prove himself an instructor in such." (The interpretation by Hippolytus, (bishop) of Rome, of the visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, taken in conjunction, paragraphs 21-22)
* 200AD Hippolytus of Rome (On The "Iron Kingdom" of Daniel 7) "Speak with me, O blessed Daniel. Give me full assurance, I beseech thee. Thou dost prophesy concerning the lioness in Babylon; for thou wast a captive there. Thou hast unfolded the future regarding the bear; for thou wast still in the world, and didst see the things come to pass. Then thou speakest to me of the leopard; and whence canst thou know this, for thou art already gone to thy rest? Who instructed thee to announce these things, but He who formed thee in (from ) thy mother's womb? That is God, thou sayest. Thou hast spoken indeed, and that not falsely. The leopard has arisen; the he-goat is come; he hath broken his horns in pieces; he hath stamped upon him with his feet. He has been exalted by his fall; (the) four horns have come up from under that one. Rejoice, blessed Daniel! thou hast not been in error: all these things have come to pass. ? "After this again thou hast told me of the beast dreadful and terrible. 'It had iron teeth and claws of brass: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it.' Already the iron rules; already it subdues and breaks all in pieces; already it brings all the unwilling into subjection; already we see these things ourselves. Now we glorify God, being instructed by thee." (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. V, p. 210, pars. 32, 33. )
* 200AD Hippolytus of Rome (70 weeks) 43. With respect, then, to the particular judgment in the torments that are to come upon it in the last times by the hand of the tyrants who shall arise then, the clearest statement has been given in these passages. But it becomes us further diligently to examine and set forth the period at which these things shall come to pass, and how the little horn shall spring up in their midst. For when the legs of iron have issued in the feet and toes, according to the similitude of the image and that of the terrible beast, as has been shown in the above, (then shall be the time) when the iron and the clay shall be mingled together. Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says, "And one week will make a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease." By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1, 260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations. (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. V, p. 210, pars. 43.)
* 225AD Origen "The weeks of years, also, which the prophet Daniel had predicted, extending to the leadership of Christ, have been fulfilled" (Principles, 4:1:5). (On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel)
* 403AD Sulpcius Severus (On Daniel's Seventy Weeks) "But from the restoration of the temple to its destruction, which was completed by Titus under Vespasian, when Augustus was consul, there was a period of four hundred and eighty-three years. That was formerly predicted by Daniel, who announced that from the restoration of the temple to its overthrow there would elapse seventy and nine weeks. Now, from the date of the captivity of the Jews until the time of the restoration of the city, there were two hundred and sixty years." (p. 254, ch. 11, Sacred History)

 

[Rogue Warrior]

Iraq in prophacy?

The invasion of Kuwait by Iraq has set off a barrage of speculations and predictions by our purblind seers and self-inspired prophets.

1. Pat Robertson told the viewers of his "700 Club" television show that the confrontation with Iraq, coupled with recriminations against Israel over the shooting at the Temple Mount, point to fulfillment of Bible prophecies that the nations of the world are going to come against Israel.'
2. Jack Van Impe told his national TV audience that four major prophecies in the Bible pinpoint Iraq and the Persian Gulf as the prelude to the Battle of Armageddon, a conflict he says will begin at the Euphrates River in Iraq.' Van Impe believes that Iraq is modern Babylon.
3. Ken Fleming, a professor at Emmaus Bible College, Dubuque, Iowa, identifies Iraq as the prophetic Babylon of Scripture. He wrote, "Prophetically, in the future Babylon will once again be a great nation. The Bible foresees that it will prostitute its political and religious and commercial power in association with a world leader called The Beast (Rev. 14:8-9; 17:11-12). . . Likewise we note things of interest in Iraq (Babylon) which may have a bearing on the approach of the events surrounding the Second Coming."'
4. Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, Editor-in-Chief of Pulpit Helps, advertises a cassette of his entitled, "Iraq in Prophecy." The ad states, "These lessons provide the biblical information to identify Iraq as the modern Babylon."

Is Iraq modern Babylon? Is Iraq in Bible prophecy? It is true that Iraq is located in the area that was once occupied by ancient Babylonia, but that proves nothing, unless the Bible teaches that Babylon would be revived once again into another nation, specifically in the nation of Iraq. This concept we will clearly show is without biblical support, being concocted in the wild imaginations of men.

Babylon's Past Glory

Babylon was situated on the Euphrates River, about 50 miles south of modern Baghdad, the capital of Iraq. Baghdad is located on the Tigris River, approximately 40 miles east of the Euphrates. The Tower of Babel was built there and Hammurabi, the great lawgiver, reigned there in the nineteenth century before Christ. It was from Ur in Babylonia that God called Abraham to go into a land that he would show him.

In the Neo-Babylonia era, Nebuchadnezzar was the ruler (605-562 B.C.) in the height of its glory. It was during his

time that Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed (586 B.C.) and the Jews were taken captive for 70 years. From there Daniel was prime minister and from there Cyrus the Persian issued an edict allowing Jews to return to their homeland. It was there that Alexander the Great died (323 B.C.), while planning a new capital. Babylon was overthrown in 539 B.C. by the Medo-Persians.

Babylon's Rebirth

After hundreds of years of lying in oblivion, we are now told that ancient Babylon has been reincarnated in modern Iraq. They tell us that over the past ten years Saddam Hussein, Dictator of Iraq, has spent enormous sums of money in restoring many historical sites, such as the Southern Palace of Nebuchadnezzar, the Processional Way and the Ishtar Gate.

We are informed that Hussein wants to restore Babylon as a symbol of the greatness of the people of Mesopotamia, making it a prime attraction of the Middle East. Hussein would like to move his capital to Babylon, it is reported, in the future. He considers himself as a twentieth century Nebuchadnezzar, leader of a strong empire.

Millennialists reason that since prophecies about Babylon have not been fulfilled, namely, Isaiah 13, 14; Jeremiah 50,51 and Revelation 17,18, we are to look to Iraq for their completion. But let us focus our attention on the prophecies about Babylon and see whether or not they have been fulfilled.

Isaiah and Babylon

The prophet Isaiah, through inspiration, looked beyond 150 years into the future and saw the downfall of Babylon. Listen to him: "The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see. . . . Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty" (13:1,6).

God's judgment upon Babylon is depicted in vivid, figurative language as "the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine" (13: 10). Jesus employs identical language in foretelling the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. (Matt. 24:29). These symbolic expressions denote the fall of political rulers, the destruction of nations and the termination of their government (cf. Joel 2: 10; 3:15-16).

Using the Medes as his instrument (13:17), God said Babylon would be as when he "overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall neither be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch his tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there" (13:19-20). This does not sound like there is going to be a revival of the Babylonian Empire. God said it was finished, forever!

In Isaiah 14:21-22 God says that Babylon will never rise again to possess the land, nor build cities. God will cut off from Babylon the name, remnant, and son, and nephew. In v. 23 it would be swept with the "besom of destruction." A besom is a small broom to sweep out corners and clear out trash. In light of Isaiah's declaration, Saddam Hussein is not the modern Nebuchadnezzar and the Iraqi people are not the Babylonian nation, millennialists to the contrary.

Jeremiah and Babylon

It is claimed that Jeremiah's prophecy concerning Babylon in chapters 50, 51 has not been fulfilled because the city of Babylon was to be left without inhabitants as the result of being overwhelmed by a horde of great nations from the north (50:1-10). Babylon did not cease immediately to have inhabitants when Cyrus captured the city in 539 B.C., hence, it is concluded that the prophecy remains to be fulfilled. In fact, there was no fighting when Babylon fell.

Nobody is saying that Babylon was immediately ravaged after its capture by Cyrus. But both Isaiah and Jeremiah's prophecies were totally fulfilled concerning the city shortly after Alexander the Great's untimely death in Babylon in 323 B.C. The city, because of a series of events, was weakened and allowed to decay. McClintock and Strong state the following:

The great city of Seleucia, which soon after arose in its neighborhood, not only drew away its population, but was actually constructed of materials derived from its buildings I . . . Since then Babylon has been a quarry from which all the tribes in the vicinity have perpetually derived the bricks with which they have built their cities. . . . The "great city," "the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency," has thus emphatically "become heaps" (Jer. 51:37) - she is truly "an astonishment and a hissing, without an inhabitant" (1:606).



Jeremiah's prophecy has Babylon invaded by great nations from the north (50:9). Those stationed in Saudi Arabia do not fit this description. Too, the northern armies would use the bow and arrow, lances and ride upon horses (50:9, 14,42). 1 don't think the United States and its allies will restort to such antiquated weaponry to fight Saddam Hussein and his guns, missiles, tanks, poison gas and planes.

Millennialists also argue that the prophecy pertaining to Babylon in Jeremiah 50,51 has not come to pass because the children of Israel and the children of Judah are to be restored to their homeland (50:4-5), which, they tell us, did not materialize when the remnant returned under Zerubbabel in 536 B.C. Israel is to be restored after the defeat of Babylon. Israel has not been fully restored, hence, Babylon must yet be defeated, they surmise.

But the Jews have been restored. Jeremiah stated, "For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you to return to this place" (Jer. 29:10). Notice that the Jews would return after 70 years to this place. Jeremiah did not say, " 1948, " or "the 20th century," but "after seventy years" they would return to this place. Ezra 1: 1 and 2:1 show this was fulfilled. They came to Zion under Zerubbabel, and others later with Ezra, joining themselves together in a perpetual covenant (50:4-5).

If Babylon in Jeremiah 50,51 is Iraq, then why does Jeremiah tell Israel to "flee out of the midst of Babylon" (51:6) when there is probably not one Jew today within a hundred miles of Iraq? What will Jews be doing in Iraq?

Revelation and Babylon

Ken Flemming said, "Jeremiah's prophetic vision of Babylon is clearly linked to John's in Revelation 17 and 18 regarding events that take place during the great tribulation. Thus we look for a literal Babylon of world importance during the tribulation. 114

In Revelation 17:5 Babylon is designed as "Mystery Babylon. " A.T. Robertson says in regard to "mystery" (musterion), "Babylon is to be interpreted mystically or spiritually . . . for Rome" (Word Pictures, Vol. 6, p. 430). The wickedness of ancient Babylon is personified in Rome, the oppressor of the church when John wrote Revelation.

The characteristics ascribed to the Babylon of Revelation fit better the city of Rome than any other city. (1) Rules over the kings of the earth (17:18). (2) Corrupts the nations (17:2; 18:3; 19:2). (3) Sits upon seven mountains (17:9). Rome sits upon seven hills. (4) Center of the world's merchandise (18:3,11-13). (5) Persecutes the saints (17:6). These traits do not fit Baghdad or Iraq. Only the convoluted logic of premillennial preachers could find Iraq in the book of Revelation, or any other book of the Bible.

Nevertheless, these soothsayers go on confounding and being confounded. They will never stop. Their total failures of the past have not deterred them. They just falsely reinterpret Scripture to fit current events, whether it be a Napoleon, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, or now, Saddarn Hussein.

According to U.S. News & World Reports the Middle East turmoil has sparked a run on end-time prophecies. Hal Lindsey's book, The Late Great Planet Earth, has shot up in sales by 83 percent since August, and Zondervan Publishing House is updating the book, Armageddon, Oil, and the Middle East Crisis by John Walvoord. Other books on the Middle East are selling well. As Jeremiah said, "The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so; and what will ye do in the end thereof" (5:31).

Footnotes

* U.S. News & World Report, Nov. 1990, p. 67.
* Ibid.
* Interest, Dec. 1990, p. 14.
* Ibid., pp. 13-14.

Weldon E. Warnock, Truth Magazine, Feb 7, 1991

 

[Rogue Warrior]

De-bunking previous post:

First, the word Rapture is not even to be found in the Bible; Nor is the doctrine taught there.

Secondly, the Lord's return will not be. secretive or silent. Revelation 1:7 states that, "every eye shall see him', 1 Thessalonians 4:16, says that His coming will be heralded with, "a shout'. with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God".

Thirdly, the "tribulation" often referred to is based upon an erroneous interpretation of Matthew 24. This "tribulation' was associated with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 according to the first question the Lord answered in Matthew 24:1-3. That "tribulation" did in fact come before that generation passed, Matthew 24:34.

Fourthly, according to the Bible there is but one resurrection and that will include both the good and evil., John 5:28-29, states, "all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth".

Fifthly, based upon the Bible, Christ's Kingdom is not future. It has already been in existence for nearly 2000 years and it is a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one. Jesus stated it in John 18:336 "My kingdom is not of this world." Christ promised Peter in Matthew 16:18-19-that he could open the doors of the kingdom, and this the apostle exercised in Acts 2:38-47. John, the apostle, stated in Revelation 1:9 that he was "in the Kingdom". Now all of these books were written in the First Century and the kingdom was spoken of as existing then. Mark 9:1 is a passage that definitely puts the beginning of the kingdom in that generation.

Lastly, the idea of a thousand year reign of Christ on earth is a gross distortion of Revelation 20:1-7. This is a highly figurative context within a very symbolic book. The reign viewed in Revelation 20 is not an "earthly" reign of the Lord at all. It is a spiritual reign with victorious saints (Revelation 20:4). In Revelation 6:9-11 these martyred souls were, "underneath the altar", crying for vindication; in Chapter 20, however, they were on, "thrones reigning with their Lord." This was a prophetic indication that Christianity would be triumphant over its enemies. The 1,000 years is likely a symbol of the completeness of that victory. The number 1,000 is used more than 20 times in the book of Revelation, but not in a literal sense. The whole concept of the so-called Rapture contradicts scores of Bible passages of the clearest import.

 

[HansNZ]

Re: Hmmm....

I do respect your views, but don't you see the irony of your position?

If I accept what you are contending above as correct, consider this.

Let's say as some would contend, Lucifer is the true god. I reject Lucifer because I choose to believe Jehovah is the true God. Wouldn't that make me a "sinner" according to Satanists? So either I still have free will, or agnostics are the only ones who still have "free will."

I think you have missed my point. In both cases you have surrendered your free-will. You are assuming that someone has to consider something or the other "God".

What I am suggesting is that people take responsibility for what they believe instead of investing that power in someone else to do on their behalf.

When trying to discover "truth" (in itself a dogmatic concept), instead consider what is said by those you admire to be opinion or advice rather than "truth". Take the validity of everything said by people/ideologies you respect or admire on a case by case basis.

Construct your own idea of what is right instead of becoming dependent on lucifer or Jehovah to do that for you.

 

[Baby Gorilla]

Scholars?

....Lastly, the idea of a thousand year reign of Christ on earth is a gross distortion of Revelation 20:1-7. This is a highly figurative context within a very symbolic book....

If you want to believe that, fine, but there is a counterpoint.

Endtime prophecies were written to those living in the end times. So many "scholars" have claimed that these things are past basically because they could not explain what they meant.

How many saw Jesus fulfill the prophecies concerning Him but rejected Him as the promissed Messiah? LOTS.

Likewise (I contend) is so here. I care little for the opinions of "scholars" solely because I've heard tons of bunk theologically from those who basically are up on their own ego. "I've studied for years on this topic....thus, I am correct."

I believe Revelation was written in code for many reasons....

1. It could be applied to every generation as a message of hope.
2. It was a way to communicate a message in code.
3. Just as Jesus taught in parables to keep truth from the wicked but not to those seeking, prophecy is often similarly "coded" to prevent it from being revealed to those who have wicked hearts or who are not meant to know the meaning of the prophecies.

Either way, we'll find out soon enough.